A fine old mess

[elgordo38]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:02 AM, mommysboy said:

A modest Thai Health policy would likely have covered most of this, and woulkd cost about 12000 baht per year.

Where are these policies available?? Most are not available after 70. Mans inhumanity to man. 

[mettech]

We should have an overview on how many farangs is there with full insurance and the one without insurances.

It  will be surprising I think.

[ajarngreg]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

How is the OP going to afford a lawyer? Haven't you read his posts?

Lol. Wait, I'll call my lawyer first. He only wants a down payment in form of an old bicycle.......

[psyvolt]

17 hours ago, Deserted said:

The whole purpose of this post is to question how come one hospital waited til I came round and then asked what I wanted to do

Because no two accidents are the same. I'm sorry to hear you had an accident, but you really are coming across as rather ungrateful and arrogant. Maybe they should have just left you for dead on the road, or waited to see if you had a brain bleed, or a broken neck or a punctured lung before starting treatment, even thou its procen that the sooner they start treatment the higher the chance of a successful outcome.

[psyvolt]

44 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Frankly, I cannot find a single thing to fault with the treatment he was given, and nothing mentioned falls outside of the necessary and urgent. Those who believe otherwise need to read up on care of unconscious patients with head injuries.

Absolutely agree. 

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Where are these policies available?? Most are not available after 70. Mans inhumanity to man. 

 

Actually there are mant international insurers who will issue policies to people over 70 (which there is no indication the OP is). But the time to take out a policy is prior to that as the older one is, the morel ikley to have pre-existing conditions which will be excluded.

 

Over at the price range he mentions I think he means not health insurance but accident insurance.  That is easily gotten at least up to age 65 at very low rates. But, while better than nothing, it won't help in case of a catastrophic illness.

[elgordo38]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

 

Actually there are mant international insurers who will issue policies to people over 70 (which there is no indication the OP is). But the time to take out a policy is prior to that as the older one is, the morel ikley to have pre-existing conditions which will be excluded.

 

Over at the price range he mentions I think he means not health insurance but accident insurance.  That is easily gotten at least up to age 65 at very low rates. But, while better than nothing, it won't help in case of a catastrophic illness.

I think he can get some accident insurance up to age 100 at Bangkok Bank. 

[ajarngreg]

47 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It was a bicycle.

 

And leaving aside for a moment the issue of whether there were other nearby hospitals that he "should" have been brought to, not Bumrungrad's fault that he was brought to them. They received an unconscious, seizing man with a head injury.  As far as I can tell, they delivered appropriate medical care, including one (not multiple as originally stated ) CT of the head to rule out an intracranial bleed (very possible and would have required immediate surgery to prevent death or brain injury) and simple Xrays of the cervical and thoracic spine (likely what the "neck" and "chest" films were actually about) -- proper medical practice is that after a traumatic injury the neck and upper body  be immobilized until spinal injury has been ruled out; failure to do this can result in spinal cord damage if there was any fracture to the vertebra, which they cannot know without an Xray.

 

They likely also administered drugs by IV to help reduce brain swelling, and when he came around and insisted on leaving they counselled him about danger signs and risk of a late bleed.  Frankly, I cannot find a single thing to fault with the treatment he was given, and nothing mentioned falls outside of the necessary and urgent. Those who believe otherwise need to read up on care of unconscious patients with head injuries.

 

The total cost of 50,000 baht -- half of this being for a head CT with contrast - is hardly excessive for the care given. Certainly it would have been less in a government hospital, but not by as much as one might think given the necessity of a head CT with contrast (even in a government hospital that will be at least 10,000 baht).

 

The government has been cracking down on private hospitals for failing to promptly provide emergency care to one and all who arrive in need of it and it appears that Bumrungrad has issued policies in support of this to their A&E  personnel.

 

This case is an unfortunate example of why, in the past (and in some places even today) private hospitals often fail to provide appropriate emergency care until/unless they are assurred first of payment.

 

There has been no suggestion that his passport has been taken by anyone. the police have the bicycle - what were they supposed to do, leave it lying in the street to be stolen?  They may indeed refuse to return it if the hospital has filed a complaint for non-payment as they are well within their rights to have done.

 

Let us hope the OP does the right thing and contacts the hospital and arranges a payment plan.

 

The crippled bicycle in the hospital's parking lot, or inside the ICU wouldn't be a good solution. 

 

OP, stop riding bicycles and buy a Lamborghini. 

 

  This is another sad story of a foreigner trying to live in a country others see as a paradise.

 

  It must be like hell for the OP. How many other foreigners are in similar circumstances?

 

  I know that there are quite a lot and the number's increasing day by day.

 

   And more and more Thais start to dislike foreigners for obvious reasons.

 

  

 

 

[mommysboy]

19 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Where are these policies available?? Most are not available after 70. Mans inhumanity to man. 

Mine is with Thai Health.  I got just a basic cover, which covers me to 300,000 total which is inadequate but better than nothing. At 55 it cost me 12000 baht.  In this instance they would have paid most I think.  For 80000 I could get something that mirrors NHS UK treatment plan.   There are also specific accident policies which are cheap.

 

No, they stop at around 70, which should be banned imo.  Personally, I am an advocate of universal health care for all since illness is largely random, often genetically determined, and it simply is beyond the means of poor people to adequately provide for themselves voluntarily from cradle to grave.

 

I think OP's complaint is not about paying as such, but being taken to the most expensive hospital.

 

 

[elgordo38]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Personally, I am an advocate of universal health care for all since illness is largely random, often genetically determined, and it simply is beyond the means of poor people to adequately provide for themselves voluntarily from cradle to grave.

I agree watch out for the Nanny state bombardment. 

[Thaidream]

This is a perfect example of why private hospitals need to be controlled regarding amounts they can charge and services rendered. They are not there for patient care but to make money.

Insurance is part of the scam that hospitals and doctors and Big Pharma rely on to inflate prices and glean as much as possible from a patient.

In this particular case while I do not agree with the hospital charges or the situation- I would negotiate the prices down ward and arrange a payment plan.

I would also consider discussing with the hospital that the Thai Government has indicated that for 72 hours- a patient who is transported to a hospital gets free medical care to stabilize them.

Medical care should be a right and not a service provided to those who will pay the highest price or be based upon what the hospital can get away with as far as providing services that are not needed. 

While we s individuals have a responsibility to pay for services rendered- the services provided must be fair and reasonable. I have had extensive experience with a family member who had cancer and eventually passed away and I have dealt with insurance companies. hospitals in Thailand both private and public and hospital administrator.  I have found that private hospitals in Thailand base their administration and economics on the American system which is based solely upon profit. There are plenty of high quality physicians in Thailand skilled in every aspect of human physiology to include oncology and the most modern medicines to be found in the Thai public system.

 

The OP brings upon an interesting point and I question the ethics involved of the ambulance service as well as the amount of treatment he received and the fact that he was unconscious and could not participate in his choices. If the hospital insists that all the treatment was indeed a life saving process- the hospital should be prepared to write off about 75% of these charges in line with the current Thai Government's mandates on 72 hour hour emergency care.

[Confuscious]

3 hours ago, possum1931 said:

12000 Bt per year? Is that for people in their twenties? I have just pulled out of my health insurance which I had for the last two years, it costs me 35.000Bt per year, from a local Thai company. I was advised by someone well in the know, not to pay it unless they printed out the policy in English, I asked them and they refused to do that, so I pulled out. Insurance companies cannot be trusted, and if expats are to take out health or accident insurance, they deserve to be treated fairly, and not just used as a cash cow for them. They only want your business if there is little chance you will make a claim. Yes, they are a business, but there is a thing called fairness. Capitalism strikes it's ugly head again.

BULLSHIT

I have a PA insurance with KreungThai.

I am 63 years old and I pay annualy 4,650 Baht.
Had 2 accidents and I did not need to pay a dime.
All cost was handled by the KreungThai company.

Oh, the poor fahrang is treated bad again by the Thais.
Hurry, make them all look bad and the fahrang a howly cow.

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, Confuscious said:

BULLSHIT

I have a PA insurance with KreungThai.

I am 63 years old and I pay annualy 4,650 Baht.
Had 2 accidents and I did not need to pay a dime.
All cost was handled by the KreungThai company.

Oh, the poor fahrang is treated bad again by the Thais.
Hurry, make them all look bad and the fahrang a howly cow.

The post was about health insurance - not accident insurance.

[Minnie the Minx]

So what is the conclusion here? He is unconscious, the emergency services take him to hospital where they check him out.

 

Standard procedures follow.

 

He then runs away without paying the bills because they took him to the 'wrong hospital'. He has no insurance, no money to pay. What if he was the one who caused some major accident and people were hurt, would he be able to pay for them?

 

It's actually theft when you think about it. Silly business imo. 

 

 

[jippytum]

Although i have some sympathy for your situation you seem to want some backing for your stance of walking out without paying the bill or addressing the problem at source. Back dating your Bupa policy to before the accident would be a fraudulent action and perhaps get other people who are trying to help you into trouble.

[Thaidream]

The OP is not running away- he is questioning the charges and the need for the care he was given. He is on a low budget and is looking for a solution.  I also question the ethics  of what happened at the private hospital.

However, since this is Thailand and not one's home country where other solutions may be available, I would ask the hospital to reduce the charges- and then negotiate a repayment plan that fits the budget of the patient.

[Minnie the Minx]

By his own admission he 'walked out'. That's running away. 

 

Don't forget he was 'unconscious'. What if he walked out and later on fainted? 

[Minnie the Minx]

9 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The OP is not running away- he is questioning the charges and the need for the care he was given. He is on a low budget and is looking for a solution.  I also question the ethics  of what happened at the private hospital.

However, since this is Thailand and not one's home country where other solutions may be available, I would ask the hospital to reduce the charges- and then negotiate a repayment plan that fits the budget of the patient.

It's not restricted to Thailand. What if this happened say in America where you run up astronomical bills without insurance? Any country in the world.

 

I've got BUPA Gold through my company but if I want to go to North America it's not covered, pay extra for example.

[Sheryl]

37 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

... If the hospital insists that all the treatment was indeed a life saving process- the hospital should be prepared to write off about 75% of these charges in line with the current Thai Government's mandates on 72 hour hour emergency care....

 

That mandate refers to persons covered under any of the 3 schemes that make up the government's universal health coverage system. That encompasses all Thai citizens but not most foreigners.

 

As mentioned before, the treatment given was entirely in accordance with standard emergency care for an unconscious accident victim. To have failed to have done any of these things would have been serious negligence and could well lead to death or disability.

[Minnie the Minx]

100% agree with that Sheryl.

 

If they did not do any of the standard procedures and he came out the worse for wear would he have any hesitation suing the hospital? Since he has no money? 

[Thaidream]

I'll tell you what happens in America- when one gets a bill of $500K and insurance is involved- the insurance company drives down the cost of everything and pays the hospital only what they negotiate.  If it is the Government paying the bill- the Government only pays what it charge of services list allows which is much less than what a private insurance company pays.

 

When it is the patient who has to pay- they are paying the full bill which is often inflated by the hospital. If the patient cannot pay- it goes to collections and then possibly legal action - or the patient sells their home or cars- if they have no assets- they declare bankruptcy. America has one of the worst healthcare seervice in the World as far as cost and resolution of charges. There is nothing wrong with the care itself but the cost is based upon an unholy alliance between Inssurance companies; Privates Hospitals/doctors and Big Pharma and it is the patient who suffers from this greed.

 

Europeans mostly do not have to face this conundrum because they have single payer coverage run by the Government and they pay for it through their taxes. You don't hear about Europeans, Canadians, Australians going bankrupt from medical issues. Americans face these problems daily and as an American I can sympathise with the feelings of the OP. His issue centers on his low income- even though he has a point about whether the charges are fair- he is in Thailand and subject to the Thai system.

If it was me- I would tell the truth to the hospital- explain his inability to pay-ask for a reduced bill and pay a negotiated price via monthly payments,

 

[NoshowJones]

21 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

BULLSHIT

I have a PA insurance with KreungThai.

I am 63 years old and I pay annualy 4,650 Baht.
Had 2 accidents and I did not need to pay a dime.
All cost was handled by the KreungThai company.

Oh, the poor fahrang is treated bad again by the Thais.
Hurry, make them all look bad and the fahrang a howly cow.

 Don't you know that different banks in Thailand make up their own rules, I bet your insurance stops when you reach 65 or maybe 70. Yes, they paid out, but I should have said that I was referring to UK insurance companies as I did in another post in this thread.

[ddavidovsky]

13 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

As mentioned before, the treatment given was entirely in accordance with standard emergency care for an unconscious accident victim. To have failed to have done any of these things would have been serious negligence and could well lead to death or disability.

Surely more like luxury care than standard care, which is probably the entire point here. The fact that it happens to be a tremendous money-spinner doesn't strike you as a moral hazard? If a reasonable cost was attached to these procedures, there would be no suspicion.

You can imagine the scene in casualty nowadays: "There's an unconscious farang? SWITCH ON THE SCANNERS!"

[mommysboy]

46 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

The post was about health insurance - not accident insurance.

I've had 6 or 7 years of policies, and made 2 claims, both met in full.  I also claimed on a policy taken out on my baby, again no problems.

 

The problem is health insurance, even expensive policies, do not cover unlimited expenses.  If I was to make a joke of it, then they I would say they are great unless you get really ill.

 

But regardless, as OP's unfortunate event shows you have make some provision, and then have a Plan B, whether that is a dash back home, or a credit card with a big limit.

 

As others have said, Thai Government hospitals are half decent.

[Thaidream]

While I would believe Sheryl on the need for the tests as she has a medical background- I doubt that the OP would consider suing the hospital. These type of suits are rare in Thailand. However, what is not so rare is that certain private hospitals run up the bills on patients to generate the most income possible.

I have seen this happen first hand with a family member who was hospitalized with a very minor ailment simply because they had insurance.

The issue is for profit hospitals being allowed to operate alongside government or not for profit hospitals. In my mind- if a person is unconscious and an ambulance brings a patient to a for profit hospital- either for an emergent reason or because they are getting a commission- the hospital should only be allowed to charge a the not for profit rate.

 

The ultimate solution to all is simple- get rid of insurance companies; get rid of profit in healthcare and go to universal healthcare system paid for by governments/tax dollars and work out a reimbursement provision for non citizens from their home countries. Everyone wins except the greedy.

 

[digger70]

This is what happen when there is not an affordable insurance available  for expats and foreign workers and Holiday people. 

The Healthcare in Thailand is much cheaper than in the (western) World But we have to pay 10x more here for not even a full coverage.All the insurance companies Ripping us of,That's why a lot of people don't/can't afford/ have Healthcare Insurance.

[StevieAus]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:19 AM, Deserted said:

i was not covered at the time of the accident but if they want to help me clear it, can't they post date the accident by two weeks? How much of it would Bupa cover?

I think you will find that sort of request is called fraud

 

[1FinickyOne]

2 hours ago, elgordo38 said:

I think he can get some accident insurance up to age 100 at Bangkok Bank. 

Sure he can - it is relatively cheap as it only covers sending a "get well soon" card... 

[elgordo38]

8 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

Sure he can - it is relatively cheap as it only covers sending a "get well soon" card... 

Gee and I did not even get a birthday card. In reply every little bit helps and no I am not referring to sex. 

[1FinickyOne]

4 hours ago, possum1931 said:

No, they were doing the best for themselves financially, that is why the OP was taken to Bumrungrad, a very expensive private hospital, and not to the first government hospital, passing several government hospitals on the way.

Maybe if he were conscious, or left a contact number in case of accident, he would have been able to choose for himself... if it were me and I was found unconscious after an accident, I would have wanted Bumrungrad. For possibly saving his life, the charges don't sound that expensive to me... but, either way, you don't just walk out w/o paying anything... if he has a gripe about price, take it up with administration... ask for a discount & a payment plan... but for what they did to help him, why do they get nothing? He didn't even offer them what a cheap hospital would charge - just nothing... 

 

This and that he wanted to defraud an insurance company illustrate character.