visit to ireland

[noogaloo]

Can my Thai wife visit friends in irish republic with a u.k.tourist visa

[CharlieH]

Uk Visa would include Northern Ireland.

To go to Southern Ireland she would need a Shengen Visa.

[MartinL]

I don't think CharlieH is correct, unless things have changed very recently. 

 

I asked the same question of the Irish visa people in late 2014 for a visit in 2015 and got the reply in the attachment. It's a bit long. My original question is on p.3. Bits relevant for you I've emboldened. 

 

Basically, it says that with a UK 6-month Visit Visa, she doesn't need a separate Irish visa.

 

If you want to confirm, e-mail "[email protected]" - they responded to my query the next day.

 

 

Irish Short Stay Visa Waiver.pdf

Edited April 23, 2017 by MartinL

[jeab1980]

But as there are no border controls between the two I very much doubt anyone would know. We have done it a couple of times. I'm not saying it's right or even saying why not just saying that's all

[oldgent]

3 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

But as there are no border controls between the two I very much doubt anyone would know. We have done it a couple of times. I'm not saying it's right or even saying why not just saying that's all

agree with the above post going by road or rail there is no problem no one checks, as long as you go back the same way

avoid flying between the North and South.

[theoldgit]

3 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Uk Visa would include Northern Ireland.
To go to Southern Ireland she would need a Shengen Visa.

I'm sorry but that's not correct, Ireland isn't in the the Schengen Area, a Schengen visa wouldn't be valid for entry to Ireland, they have their own visa system.

However certain nationals holding certain short term visas for the UK can take advantage of a short term visa waiver scheme, in certain circumstances. inis.gov.ie/Irish Short Stay Visa Waiver Programme.

[oldgent]

3 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Uk Visa would include Northern Ireland.

To go to Southern Ireland she would need a Shengen Visa.

we can all get it wrong CharlieH no worries, good job theoldgit is here to keep us right

[ValleyCommando]

I don't think CharlieH is correct, unless things have changed very recently. 
 
I asked the same question of the Irish visa people in late 2014 for a visit in 2015 and got the reply in the attachment. It's a bit long. My original question is on p.3. Bits relevant for you I've emboldened. 
 
Basically, it says that with a UK 6-month Visit Visa, she doesn't need a separate Irish visa.
 
If you want to confirm, e-mail "[email protected]" - they responded to my query the next day.
 
 
Irish Short Stay Visa Waiver.pdf

This correct.I took my Thai girlfriend who was visiting me on a six month tourist visa to visit Dublin for 3 nights April 2014.
Flew from Bristol to Dublin with Ryan Air-no problem departing Bristol or entering the Republic of Ireland.Immigration were aware of the agreement.
On return check in Dublin no issues and on arrival at Bristol walked through Immigration and straight to the car.



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[ValleyCommando]

Can my Thai wife visit friends in irish republic with a u.k.tourist visa

Yes


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[ValleyCommando]

Uk Visa would include Northern Ireland.
To go to Southern Ireland she would need a Shengen Visa.

Not correct-my Thai girlfriend visited the Irish Republic using a six month U.K. tourist visa April 2014 which I believe is an agreement between the U.K. and the Republic of Ireland.
We flew from Bristol with Ryan Air to Dublin.On arrival you go through Immigration same as the UK-EU non EU etc.
Irish Immigration were very friendly just asking where and how long we were staying-no problem.
Return to Bristol was even more straightforward-check in Dublin no problem and straight through Immigration at Bristol on our return and into the car.
I believe it's only a temporary arrangement but you can find more information on it via the internet.


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[7by7]

4 hours ago, theoldgit said:

I'm sorry but that's not correct, Ireland isn't in the the Schengen Area, a Schengen visa wouldn't be valid for entry to Ireland, they have their own visa system.

However certain nationals holding certain short term visas for the UK can take advantage of a short term visa waiver scheme, in certain circumstances. inis.gov.ie/Irish Short Stay Visa Waiver Programme.

  Those circumstances being;

• they hold a standard UK visit visa,
• they enter the RoI from the UK,
• their UK visit visa will be valid for the duration of their stay in the RoI and
• they spend a maximum of 90 days in the RoI.

Thailand is one of the countries whose nationals are covered by the programme, which has been extended until 31/10/2021

 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by 7by7

[7by7]

7 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

But as there are no border controls between the two I very much doubt anyone would know. We have done it a couple of times. I'm not saying it's right or even saying why not just saying that's all

 There are controls if travelling by air, and even if travelling by sea from Great Britain or by land from Northern Ireland the INIS do hold random spot checks.

[jeab1980]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 There are controls if travelling by air, and even if travelling by sea from Great Britain or by land from Northern Ireland the INIS do hold random spot checks.

Never been asked Amyuestions traveling by sea never plus NI is part of zuK so Mrs is entitled to visit. Land entry to the As I said I'm not saying it's right you pays your money and takes your chances in our case had no problems

Edited April 23, 2017 by jeab1980

[mgb]

As long as the brexit is not finalised you are still a eu citizen exercising your right of free movement in Ireland. The family member of a eu citizen need only a visa for crossing the border. If there is no border control there is no border control. It is a good idea to have the marriage certificate by hand in such circumstances.

[jeab1980]

Mgb yes I know this the thread is about thai wife or partner on a  UK visitors visa. Asking about traveling to a Shengen visa operated country. All I was saying is we have done southern Ireland from NI when wife has UK visitors Visa with no problems. There are as you point out no border controls and as I understand from what's been said so far about Brexit there still won't be after UK leaves EU

[CharlieH]

10 hours ago, oldgent said:

we can all get it wrong CharlieH no worries, good job theoldgit is here to keep us right

My wife will be pleased. 

 

Cheers to "theOldgit".

[mgb]

 

@jeab1980

The question is about Ireland and Ireland is not a Schengen member.
If there is no border control between NI and the south nobody can ask for a visa. The stay of a accompanying family member is directly covered from the eu directive.
 

Edited April 24, 2017 by mgb

[noogaloo]

Many thanks to all who replied to my query on visiting ireland on a U.K. visa the wealth of knowledge of the members is staggering and we are now able to visit....thank you all

[7by7]

9 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Never been asked Amyuestions traveling by sea never plus NI is part of zuK so Mrs is entitled to visit. Land entry to the As I said I'm not saying it's right you pays your money and takes your chances in our case had no problems

 Yes, I know that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland!!!!

 

But this topic is about travelling to the Republic, and most UK visas are not valid for entry there; whether or not the person seeking entry is married to a UK citizen. It is only UK visit visas which are covered by the Irish visa waiver programme; someone in the UK with a settlement visa, even ILR, wold need a visa to enter the Republic.

 

Anyone who enters the Republic without the correct entry clearance will be there illegally. Yes, I am aware that other than when arriving by air, border controls are virtually non existent, particularly when crossing by land, but the Irish Nationalisation and Immigration Service, along with the Garda, do carry out random, spot checks from time to time on those arriving both by sea from Great Britain and by land from Northern Ireland.

 

6 hours ago, mgb said:

The stay of a accompanying family member is directly covered from the eu directive.

If the non EEA national family member of an EEA or Swiss national is seeking entry to an EEA state other than that of which their family member is a citizen and is accompanying or joining their family member then strictly speaking they do not need a visa of any kind; they simply have to prove the relationship to the satisfaction of immigration.

 

See "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" on Travel documents for non-EU family members. However, as it says there

Quote

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

Under the directive, obtaining those document, i.e. a visa, must be free, easy and the visa issued without delay.

 

Of course, what the situation will be for British citizens and their foreign family members post Brexit we do not yet know. Even with regards to the common travel area between the UK and RoI: Brexit: Irish government identifying possible checkpoint locations on Northern Ireland border

[jeab1980]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 Yes, I know that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland!!!!

 

But this topic is about travelling to the Republic, and most UK visas are not valid for entry there; whether or not the person seeking entry is married to a UK citizen. It is only UK visit visas which are covered by the Irish visa waiver programme; someone in the UK with a settlement visa, even ILR, wold need a visa to enter the Republic.

 

Anyone who enters the Republic without the correct entry clearance will be there illegally. Yes, I am aware that other than when arriving by air, border controls are virtually non existent, particularly when crossing by land, but the Irish Nationalisation and Immigration Service, along with the Garda, do carry out random, spot checks from time to time on those arriving both by sea from Great Britain and by land from Northern Ireland.

 

If the non EEA national family member of an EEA or Swiss national is seeking entry to an EEA state other than that of which their family member is a citizen and is accompanying or joining their family member then strictly speaking they do not need a visa of any kind; they simply have to prove the relationship to the satisfaction of immigration.

 

See "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" on Travel documents for non-EU family members. However, as it says there

Under the directive, obtaining those document, i.e. a visa, must be free, easy and the visa issued without delay.

 

Of course, what the situation will be for British citizens and their foreign family members post Brexit we do not yet know. Even with regards to the common travel area between the UK and RoI: Brexit: Irish government identifying possible checkpoint locations on Northern Ireland border

Hi no need for chapter and verse all I said was me and my Thai wife visited the Irish Republic when she was over on a UK tourist visa. We visited NI and decided to just carry on down to Dublin. We had no problems as there are no checkpoints on roads.  My initial post did clarify that it was not a legal thing to do and was not saying it was right. Regardless we stayed for 5 days Had a great time and travelled back to NI the same way. With no problems encountered.

[mgb]

@jeab1980
Your travel was simply legal. Independently if your wife hold a UK tourist visa or not.

[7by7]

22 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Hi no need for chapter and verse all I said was me and my Thai wife visited the Irish Republic when she was over on a UK tourist visa. We visited NI and decided to just carry on down to Dublin. We had no problems as there are no checkpoints on roads.  My initial post did clarify that it was not a legal thing to do and was not saying it was right. Regardless we stayed for 5 days Had a great time and travelled back to NI the same way. With no problems encountered.

 This is a forum where people come to find out about the various requirements for entering other countries legally.

 

At times, chapter and verse is required so people know exactly what is required.

 

Unless your wife was in the UK with a visit visa, then when she travelled to the RoI without the appropriate Irish visa she was there illegally. Advising people to act illegally is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

 

It is also against the forum rules

Quote

2) You will not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

 

[7by7]

 

 

The link I provided earlier about non EEA nationals entering other EEA states without obtaining a visa first is from the EU.

 

But I take your point; jeab's wife would not have been in the RoI illegally if instead of a visa they had the appropriate documents to prove their relationship and therefore her rights under the directive, i.e. their marriage certificate.

 

[7by7]

I know jeab doesn't like 'chapter and verse,' but from FAQs - Travel documents for non-EU family members

Quote

I am a non-EU national married to an Irish national and living in Ireland with him.  I hold an Irish residence permit.   We plan to travel to France together later this year.  Do I have to get a visa to enter France or can I rely on my Irish residence card?

 

You will need a visa to enter France.  Your residence permit was issued under Irish law rather than EU law as you are married to an Irish citizen and living in Ireland, (i.e. you are not exercising EU Treaty rights).  However, since you will be travelling with your husband to France, your visa should be granted quickly and free of charge.

Obviously, for the purposes of this discussion, substitute the UK and British for Ireland and Irish, and Ireland for France.

 

A reminder of what it says on Travel documents for non-EU family members

Quote

Do they need a visa?

If you are an EU national but you have family members who are not, they can accompany or join you in another EU country.

Your non-EU family members must carry a valid passport at all times and, depending on the country they are from, may also have to show an entry visa at the border.......

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

 

[mgb]

EU directive 2004/38 Article 5 section 2 first sentence.

 

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

 

If the irish law say no border control at the border to NI they waive a entry visa for family members.
The stay after crossing the border is covered from the eu directive article 6 anyway.

[7by7]

55 minutes ago, mgb said:

EU directive 2004/38 Article 5 section 2 first sentence.

 

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

 

If the irish law say no border control at the border to NI they waive a entry visa for family members.
The stay after crossing the border is covered from the eu directive article 6 anyway.

 I do know what the directive says, thank you.

 

See my previous for what paperwork is required under the directive by those non EEA nationals who are covered by the directive. Although there are many posts in this forum about certain countries, e.g. Spain, who have a tendency to ignore this part of the directive; as far as I am aware Ireland is not one of them and does apply it correctly.

 

From the Irish government's information on the Common travel area between Ireland and the United Kingdom

Quote

People with UK visas or residence permits

If you are a citizen of a country whose nationals need a visa to enter Ireland and you have a valid UK visa or residence permit, you may be required to have a valid visa before you arrive in Ireland. The Short Stay Visa Waiver Programme allows nationals of a number of Eastern European, Middle East and Asian countries who have a short-term UK visa to come to Ireland without the need for a separate Irish visa. This programme has been extended to 31 October 2021.

For family members covered by the directive the valid visa would be issued under the terms and conditions of the directive.

 

If you have information from INIS that those entering the Republic by land from Northern Ireland are not covered by this I would be grateful to see it; because Visa requirements for entering Ireland says

Quote

Introduction

People from certain countries (which includes Thailand) need a valid Irish entry visa before arriving in the State, whether by air, sea or land.

(7by7 emphasis)

It goes on

Quote

Who else can land in Ireland without a visa?

You do not need a visa to land in Ireland if:...........

• You are a family member of an EU citizen and you hold a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen"

A residence permit issued under the UK's immigration rules for non EEA national family members is not a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen and does not state on it that the holder is the family member of an EEA national. Therefore they are not valid for entry to any other EEA state and so that state's entry requirements need to be met.

 

Of course, if travelling with or to join their EEA national family member then those requirements are simple and the application should be processed quickly and free of charge.

Quote

Who does not pay the fee?

Some applicants are not required to pay a fee. This includes visa-required spouses and certain family members of EEA citizens (including Irish nationals) provided that proof of the relationship is provided with the application..........

Nationals of the countries covered by the Short-stay Visa Waiver Programme who are long-term legal residents of the UK or the Schengen area will still require a visa but will not have to pay the visa fee.

 Or they could, as said before, simply carry their passport and marriage certificate, with English translation if necessary, and hope that would satisfy the INIS or Garda if required.

Edited April 25, 2017 by 7by7
correct formatting errors

[7by7]

noogaloo does not say what his nationality is, but we do know that his wife is not a UK resident. So the discussion on non EEA national UK residents entering Ireland, whether legally or illegally, is irrelevant to him.

 

He asked in his OP

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 2:10 PM, noogaloo said:

Can my Thai wife visit friends in irish republic with a u.k.tourist visa

To which the simple answer is "Yes, provided she enters the UK first and travels to Ireland from the UK."

 

This is true regardless of his nationality, regardless of whether she enters Ireland by land, sea or air and regardless of whether or not he is travelling with her.

[mgb]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

and be in Ireland illegally!

Simply not possible.
Do you see anything about a visa in article 6 right of residence for 3 month?

 

Article 5 right of entry section 2 sentence 3 
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas.

 

How should that working for a entry visa for crossing the border if there is no border post?

[7by7]

2 hours ago, mgb said:

Simply not possible.

Entirely possible; anyone who has entered any state without the required entry clearance is in that state illegally.

 

2 hours ago, mgb said:

 

Article 5 right of entry section 2 sentence 3 
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas.

As you, yourself, said previously

6 hours ago, mgb said:

EU directive 2004/38 Article 5 section 2 first sentence.

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

From Regulation (EC) No 539/2001

Quote

(4) Pursuant to Article 1 of the Protocol on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty establishing the European Community, Ireland and the United Kingdom are not participating in the adoption of this Regulation. Consequently and without prejudice to Article 4 of the aforementioned Protocol, the provisions of this Regulation apply neither to Ireland nor to the United Kingdom.

(7by7 emphasis)

However, until Brexit, both countries are members of the EU and so the Freedom of Movement Directive applies.

 

Article 5, section 2 in full reads

Quote

2.   Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.  For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas.  Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

• Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 does not apply to either the UK or Ireland.
• UK residence cards issued to non EEA national family members of British citizens under the immigration rules are not valid residence cards under Article 10. Only UK residence cards issued under the EEA regulations are.
• Therefore a valid entry clearance is required to legally enter Ireland from the UK by the UK resident Thai partner of a British citizen. To save potential delays, it is better that this be the appropriate visa obtained in advance. However, under Article 5 section 4 it can be entry clearance issued at the border by Irish immigration once they are satisfied that the person seeking entry is covered by the directive.

2 hours ago, mgb said:

Do you see anything about a visa in article 6 right of residence for 3 month?

To take advantage of Article 6, first you have to legally enter the country concerned!

 

2 hours ago, mgb said:

How should that working for a entry visa for crossing the border if there is no border post?

That immigration checks on people entering Ireland by land from Northern Ireland are few and far between does not alter the fact that all of the above applies; as shown earlier in my quote from the Irish government

 

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Visa requirements for entering Ireland says

Quote

Introduction

People from certain countries (which includes Thailand) need a valid Irish entry visa before arriving in the State, whether by air, sea or land.

(7by7 emphasis)

 

The Common Travel Area Between Ireland and the UK

Quote

Border Control and Random Checks

Whilst the position in the UK has generally not changed since Irish independence, Ireland has implemented some controls on arrivals from the UK since 1997, particularly for those arriving by air. In most Irish airports, all arriving passengers are required to pass passport control, whereas checks on road, rail and ferry crossings remain random and infrequent. If stopped, GNIB officials have the power to carry out checks and to refuse entry to the state on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the CTA.

 

Unless stopped by one of these random checkpoints, your documents wont have been checked by anyone, but without the required ones you are still there illegally.

 

Of course, if you are stopped and don't have the required documents then, unless you have your passport and convince the officers that you are covered by the directive, you will be refused entry.

Edited April 25, 2017 by 7by7
Addendum

[mgb]

On 25.4.2017 at 7:00 PM, 7by7 said:

To take advantage of Article 6, first you have to legally enter the country concerned!

Say who? Take a look at Metock  C-127/8.