visit to ireland

[7by7]

Metock is about the rights of non EEA national partners of EEA nationals who are residing in an EEA state other than that of which the EEA national is a citizen.

 

From the judgement

Quote

The first question.

48. By its first question the referring court asks whether Directive 2004/38 precludes legislation of a Member State which requires a national of a non-member country who is the spouse of a Union citizen residing in that Member State but not possessing its nationality to have previously been lawfully resident in another Member State before arriving in the host Member State, in order to benefit from the provisions of that directive.

 

80. The answer to the first question must therefore be that Directive 2004/38 precludes legislation of a Member State which requires a national of a non-member country who is the spouse of a Union citizen residing in that Member State but not possessing its nationality to have previously been lawfully resident in another Member State before arriving in the host Member State, in order to benefit from the provisions of that directive.

 

The second question.

81. By its second question the referring court asks essentially whether the spouse of a Union citizen who has exercised his right of freedom of movement by becoming established in a Member State whose nationality he does not possess accompanies or joins that citizen within the meaning of Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38, and consequently benefits from the provisions of that directive, irrespective of when and where the marriage took place and of the circumstances in which he entered the host Member State.

 

99.The answer to the second question must therefore be that Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38 must be interpreted as meaning that a national of a non-member country who is the spouse of a Union citizen residing in a Member State whose nationality he does not possess and who accompanies or joins that Union citizen benefits from the provisions of that directive, irrespective of when and where their marriage took place and of how the national of a non-member country entered the host Member State.

 

Nothing there about the rights of the UK resident spouse of a UK resident British citizen travelling to the RoI with their British spouse to do so without the proper paperwork.

 

Of course, under the directive non EEA national family members of EEA nationals have the same freedom of movement rights as their EEA national family member; provided they are travelling with or to join their EEA national family member. But they need the required paperwork to show that they have the right.

 

The easiest way of doing this is, as the EU guidance Travel documents for non-EU family members says, is

Quote

Do they need a visa?

If you are an EU national but you have family members who are not, they can accompany or join you in another EU country.

Your non-EU family members must carry a valid passport at all times and, depending on the country they are from, may also have to show an entry visa at the border.

To avoid problems, contact the consulate or embassy of the country you are travelling to well in advance to find out which documents your non-EU family member will be asked to present at the border.

As we all know, any required visa must be issued with the minimum documentation, without delay and be free of charge. Some countries are notorious for not following this, but as far as i am aware Ireland is not among those.

 

The guidance also says

Quote

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

So if travelling from the UK to Ireland without first having obtained the required visa, one should have the necessary documentation to prove one's rights under the directive if required to do so.

 

[theoldgit]

A number of troll posts and responses removed

[mgb]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Metock is about the rights of non EEA national partners of EEA nationals who are residing in an EEA state other than that of which the EEA national is a citizen.

Metock C-127/8 section 99

The answer to the second question must therefore be that Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38 must be interpreted as meaning that a national of a non-member country who is the spouse of a Union citizen residing in a Member State whose nationality he does not possess and who accompanies or joins that Union citizen benefits from the provisions of that directive, irrespective of when and where their marriage took place and of how the national of a non-member country entered the host Member State.

 

Read:

irrespective of how entered the host Member State.

Edited April 28, 2017 by mgb

[7by7]

Yes, the EEA nationals host member state! Not the state of which the EEA national is a citizen. Not the state they are travelling to. 

 

But if you want to argue with a court, including if necessary up to the ECJ, that the wording of Metock covers illegal entrants, good luck to you.

 

Let us know how you get on.

[mgb]

What is a eea national doing in a member state which is not his home country?

[7by7]

1 hour ago, mgb said:

What is a eea national doing in a member state which is not his home country?

As you are someone who likes to refer to and quote the directive so much, I am amazed that you need to ask this!

 

The answer should be obvious to anyone who has even the most basic knowledge of the directive; they are exercising an economic treaty right because they are:

• a student,
• a worker, employed or self employed,
• a jobseeker,
• a person of independent means such as a pensioner or
• a qualifying family member of one of the above.

Such as a Polish labourer working on a building site in the UK, a British pensioner retired to the Costa del Sol, a German student at a French university etc., etc..

[mgb]

Article 6 2004/38
1.1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen

 

What are eea citizen and family member doing than? Right residing.
What is the ECJ talking in Metock section 99? Right residing.
Where is your understanding problem?

[7by7]

As I have already said; to exercise the right to reside, one first has to enter; and it is entry which is the subject of this debate!

 

Having shown your ignorance of the directive by asking

20 hours ago, mgb said:

What is a eea national doing in a member state which is not his home country?

you are now going round in circles.

 

[Donutz]

I need to defend MGB here. He knows quite a bit about freedom of movement and related subjects, and he is right that a non EU/EEA national together with the EU/EEA national as described in Dir. 2004/38  are indeed not illegal when residing in an other member state. But the authorities would not be amused and crossing the border will be difficult if you cannot show a valid visa (Or other such items such as Ireland has set up for Thai citizens who remain in the UK as described on page 1). We all know that being in your legal right does not mean you are also granted it. 

 

Regardless, nothing here on page 2 is of any help to the OP though. 

[7by7]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 10:07 PM, Donutz said:

But the authorities would not be amused and crossing the border will be difficult if you cannot show a valid visa (Or other such items such as Ireland has set up for Thai citizens who remain in the UK as described on page 1).

Indeed, which is my point.

 

Although I accept that my use of the word 'illegal' may be over the top; surely whether visiting or residing they would, if asked to do so, need to provide some form of satisfactory evidence that they are beneficiaries of the directive?

[jeab1980]

Going over to the UK next Febuary will probably pop into the republic again.

[ThaiPauly]

My Mother was born in the Republic and I have never been to Ireland to see where she was brought up, I never even met my Irish grandparents, who are long dead, but I would like to see where she came from

 

My Thai  wife has a visa valid for 5 years in the UK...after reading through this thread I am no better off in terms of what I need for my wife and I to make the journey I  need to make to find my family roots.

 

7x7 ,you are very switched on in these matters and you are saying that it's illegal to hop over by car to NI and shoot down, others say otherwise, it's very confusing.

 

What is the difinitive answer?

Edited May 2, 2017 by ThaiPauly

[rasg]

It tells you here:

 

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/thailand/our-services/visas/visas-for-ireland/

 

You can take a chance by driving down to Eire from NI but that's just it. You, or more correctly, your wife will be taking a chance by doing so.

Edited May 2, 2017 by rasg

[7by7]

23 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

My Thai  wife has a visa valid for 5 years in the UK...after reading through this thread I am no better off in terms of what I need for my wife and I to make the journey I  need to make to find my family roots.

Do you mean she has a five year visit visa, or is living in the UK on the 5 year settlement route?

 

Visit visa

As said previously in this topic before it wandered into other areas,  she can use that to enter the Republic as a visitor for up to 90 days provided she enters the UK, that is actually passes through UK immigration, first and then travels to Ireland. See Short stay visa waiver programme.

 

If not travelling via the UK then she will need an Irish visa.

 

UK resident or traveling direct to Ireland from outside the UK, e.g. Thailand.

If she is living in the UK on the 5 year settlement route then she is not eligible for this programme and as her UK residence permit was not issued under the EEA regulations she should obtain the appropriate entry clearance for Ireland, which, as she will be travelling with you, she can obtain simply, quickly and free of charge See Family members of EU/EEA/Swiss citizens seeking to reply on Directive 2004/38/EC (Free Movement Directive) – type of visa for which you should apply.

 

Instead of obtaining a free visa in advance, if she turns up at Irish immigration with you and your passport, her passport and your marriage certificate, with certified translation if not in English, then this should, under the EEA regulations, mean she is issued a visa on the spot. But it is probable that your average immigration officer does not know this; so expect to be delayed while the immigration officers check all is in order.

 

Remember that if flying to the Republic, whether from the UK or Thailand, the airline may not let her board if she does not have a visa.

 

All the above is my opinion based upon my reading of the various regulations; others may have different opinions.

[7by7]

On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 10:51 AM, ThaiPauly said:

7x7 ,you are very switched on in these matters and you are saying that it's illegal to hop over by car to NI and shoot down, others say otherwise, it's very confusing.

 

Although immigration/passport checks by the GNIB when entering the Republic by road from the North are very few and far between; they do occur.

 

Even if you are not subject to such a check, which in all honesty is the most likely scenario, you and your wife should still have all the required paperwork by following one of the options above.

 

Again, others may hold a different opinion.

 

Donutz is this forum's leading expert on all things to do with the EU Freedom of Movement directive, and as he says

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 10:07 PM, Donutz said:

We all know that being in your legal right does not mean you are also granted it. 

It can be difficult enough convincing immigration in some countries of your rights when you have all the necessary documents; consider how much more difficult, if not impossible, it would be if you didn't have those documents!

 

Although, to be fair to the Irish, as far as I am aware they are not one of those countries who regularly break EU law by placing unnecessary obstacles in the path of those wishing to exercise their treaty rights under the directive..

Edited May 3, 2017 by 7by7