One-way fire escapes. Can it be legal?

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, TonyClifton said:

You're not addressing my original question.  Is it legal as it is?  If you exit the building and find you cannot descend lower than floor 4, then you could easily exit the stairwell and try the stairwell in the middle or at the other end.

 

In this case, you are stuck.  

That was already answered. I don't remember the post number.

[TonyClifton]

The lack of common-sense here is astounding.  If the doors lock shut and one presumably would not use the elevator, kindly tell me how the firemen gain access to the floors?

 

Yeah,  I'll wait for the sage information we all know isn't here.

[malt25]

10 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

You're not addressing my original question.  Is it legal as it is?  If you exit the building and find you cannot descend lower than floor 4, then you could easily exit the stairwell and try the stairwell in the middle or at the other end.

 

In this case, you are stuck.  

" Is it legal as it is?"  If you contacted the fire dept as suggested, instead of rambling on here, you'd probably already have your answer.

I doubt if any of us members know the legality of Thai fire safety regulations.

[tigermoth]

16 hours ago, pcliff069 said:

All modern buildings have automated door locking. In the event of a fire the first thing security would do would unlock these doors. If there was fire in the stairwell there will be a lot of smoke so I would not enter the stairwell. If this was the case I would be staying my prayers. In all likelihood you have reached the end of your life.

Sent from my A37f using Tapatalk
 

You are incorrect. Security people have no control over the locking system. All escape stairs from highrise buildings are required to have 2 hour fire rated doors and only accessible from each floor, usually by a bar acroos the door known as a panic bar. When pressure is applied to this bar the door can open. Once inside an escape stair you can only get out when on the ground floor and directly to the outside air. There are no door opening devices on the doors from within the escape stair.

[tigermoth]

10 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

The lack of common-sense here is astounding.  If the doors lock shut and one presumably would not use the elevator, kindly tell me how the firemen gain access to the floors?

 

Yeah,  I'll wait for the sage information we all know isn't here.

There are devices for firemen only to enter escape stairs. In any case a firemans axe will soon solve the problem if one exists.

[psyvolt]

11 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

The lack of common-sense here is astounding.  If the doors lock shut and one presumably would not use the elevator, kindly tell me how the firemen gain access to the floors?

 

Yeah,  I'll wait for the sage information we all know isn't here.

Instead of waiting, why don't you use your eyes and actually read the thread. It's been answered a few times already.

[Per Walter]

A one way lock in a fire escape is not recommendable and in most countries it is against building regulations. If you use the fire escape there is always the possibility that you will meet the fire on the way. In that case there must be a way escape back from where you came. Sometimes it is required that the doors must be locked from the inside so that no unwanted persons can enter into the building. In that case the locks on the fire escape doors should be connected to the building fire alarm system so that, in case of fire, the fire alarm system shall trigger the locks in the fire escape door to be released. In mechanical locks this is mostly achieved with a magnetic relay. For electronic locks there is normally a terminal for lock release trigging.

[whaleboneman]

1 hour ago, tigermoth said:

You are incorrect. Security people have no control over the locking system. All escape stairs from highrise buildings are required to have 2 hour fire rated doors and only accessible from each floor, usually by a bar acroos the door known as a panic bar. When pressure is applied to this bar the door can open. Once inside an escape stair you can only get out when on the ground floor and directly to the outside air. There are no door opening devices on the doors from within the escape stair.

Which country are you speaking of? Certainly not the case in most buildings I have been in.

When I stay in a hotel, I prefer to use the stairs and I have rarely encountered doors that lock me out to any floor.

Also, I suggest to all apartment and hotel dwellers to try the stairs at least once. No use waiting for the fire to try and find an escape route.

Also, remember the golden rule - feel the door first to test for heat before opening.

Fire escapes are only good if all doors are kept closed. If you find yourself in a building where people have the doors propped open, the fire escapes may become chimneys. So if you feel the door first and it's not hot, but you open it and smoke billows out - try the escape on other side of building.

[aussie11950]

If the building is properly designed with fire safety in mind, the fire rated emergency exit doors will only allow exit from that floor to a stairwell, by pushing the safety bar on the inside.

This is to contain the fire on that floor.

The stairwell should be designed with positive ventilation air pressure so smoke from any likely fire will not enter the stairwell.

There also may be other fire rated doors that are held open electrically but close in a fire situation to contain a fire, but can still be opened temporarily in either direction.

Of course it depends on the design of the building, maintenance and if anybody has bypassed the safety devices.

 

 

 

[al007]

16 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

It's hard to believe that I have to spell this out but how about an earthquake. Or perhaps an explosion something that makes it impossible to descend further only to find that there's no way to go back because the doors closed behind you

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You are the ideal profile for bungalow living

 

What about walking outside and getting hit by lightening

 

What about motorbikes in Thailand

 

S**t happens 

 

Stay lucky, Keep smiling

[userabcd]

Search ''APEC building codes'' a pdf document listing standards with a brief summary and explanation of applicable building codes and regulations in different countries.

 

Could be a starting point to find some regulations on the matter and of course it's advisable to contact the relevant regional overseeing authority to get the pertinent relevant info.

[Per Walter]

53 minutes ago, whaleboneman said:

Which country are you speaking of? Certainly not the case in most buildings I have been in.

When I stay in a hotel, I prefer to use the stairs and I have rarely encountered doors that lock me out to any floor.

Also, I suggest to all apartment and hotel dwellers to try the stairs at least once. No use waiting for the fire to try and find an escape route.

Also, remember the golden rule - feel the door first to test for heat before opening.

Fire escapes are only good if all doors are kept closed. If you find yourself in a building where people have the doors propped open, the fire escapes may become chimneys. So if you feel the door first and it's not hot, but you open it and smoke billows out - try the escape on other side of building.

 

[Per Walter]

Requirements for emergency exit locks and devices in Europe is regulated in European standard EN 179.  Advanced fire alarm systems/detection systems comprises in escape routes, depending on building layout and use, automatic release lock for escape doors, automatic shutting of doors that requires to be shut(due to spreading of fire, smoke etc) and starting of fans for smoke extraction.

[seajae]

the doors are meant to open in the direction of escape only, outwards and locking behind you(this is LEGAL)to stop smoke/fire from the stairs. While they can also be fitted with access locks it is not required by law. If stairs were blocked due to an earthquake I doubt there would be anyone above that point, usually the collapse would happen all the way up not just in one area. Tend to think there is a bit of trolling involved in this as you gloss over everyones comments pointing out it is meant to happen, then again maybe you are simply being obtuse

Edited June 17, 2017 by seajae

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

Yeah,  I'll wait for the sage information we all know isn't here.

Buy a long rope that reaching the outside available ground floor for a final window exit as a last result. 

[seancbk]

16 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

I suppose that I amazed more by the fact that no one asked for clarification.  You all just assumed.  And you're all wrong.

 

There is no keyhole on the doors.  There is no door knob to open the door from the inside.  There is only a breaker bar in the hallway to open the door, after it closes, you will be met with closed doors all the way down and no way to open them.

 

Is that clear enough?

 

I can't believe you've never seen this type of fire safety door before.  

The idea is you only go through that door in the case of a fire, and then you descend to the ground floor where you exit the building.

The doors are locked from the outside as a security measure.  

The doors should have strong auto close mechanisms to ensure that *if* someone does open one, it will close securely behind them.

It is an offense punishable by law in most countries to block these doors, wedge them open or store anything on the fire stairs.

If the rules are followed the fire stairs are a safe way out of a building.

[TonyClifton]

3 hours ago, Per Walter said:

A one way lock in a fire escape is not recommendable and in most countries it is against building regulations. If you use the fire escape there is always the possibility that you will meet the fire on the way. In that case there must be a way escape back from where you came. Sometimes it is required that the doors must be locked from the inside so that no unwanted persons can enter into the building. In that case the locks on the fire escape doors should be connected to the building fire alarm system so that, in case of fire, the fire alarm system shall trigger the locks in the fire escape door to be released. In mechanical locks this is mostly achieved with a magnetic relay. For electronic locks there is normally a terminal for lock release trigging.

A poster with common-sense.  Run sir, as fast as your legs can carry you.  You will find no solace here.

[natway09]

These fire doors are supposed to be 2 hour fire rated so should have enough time.

As to earthquakes in a high rise little can be done as witnessed in wellington,

just try to get out as quickly as you can if you can

[chrisinth]

19 hours ago, NancyL said:

We're in a large 17 story building in Chiang Mai.  There is an open central stairway to the lobby and what should be closed stairways on each end of the building, but the doors are kept open for ventilation.  I never see them closed.  What most residents don't realize is the the stairways on the ends don't go all the way down to the lobby.  They stop on the 5th floor and people are expected to find their way to the central stairway to complete their descent.  

 

The one "saving grace" is that the parking garage is floors 1 - 4 and has a bigger footprint than the rest of the building, so most of the units on the 5th floor have a very large ledge outside their windows and a balcony jump off a 5th floor unit in our building will result in a twisted ankle at best.  The ledge outside our windows is big enough that we could have a major patio on top of the parking garage, but Hubby has nixed that idea.

 

I've often wondered if the Chiang Mai fire brigade has ladders tall enough to reach the 5th floor.  Also, the advice about keeping your apartment door closed during a fire probably is going to be difficult, because we're next to the termination of one of the end stairs and will hear all the surprised people coming down and discovering they're not in the lobby but in the hall of the 5th floor.  As it is now, we deal with this during power outages when people decide to use the stairs to get to the lobby.  During a fire, we're simply going to have to let people get out to the roof of the parking structure via our condo windows.

 

That is actually a massive problem and something to be discussed at length with management. Fire-doors are put in place for a reason, primarily to deprive fires from fuel, ie, air. By leaving these doors open and in the event of a major fire, the stairwell becomes the provider for the oxygen needed by the fire. As the fire grows, the more demand for oxygen and the more 'suction' created through the stairwell.

 

As for the OP's question, all fire exit doors are opened from the inside, allowing access to the fire escapes/ladders/stairs. In the example given, where the inner stairwell is not accessible, then the nearest fire exit door should be located and the remainder of the escape done via the outer fire escapes.

[TonyClifton]

4 minutes ago, natway09 said:

These fire doors are supposed to be 2 hour fire rated so should have enough time.

As to earthquakes in a high rise little can be done as witnessed in wellington,

just try to get out as quickly as you can if you can

And that is the point.  If you can't escape to a SAFE floor should the stairway turn out not to be safe, then what?  Do you die?

 

This cannot be legal.

 

 

[TonyClifton]

1 minute ago, chrisinth said:

 

That is actually a massive problem and something to be discussed at length with management. Fire-doors are put in place for a reason, primarily to deprive fires from fuel, ie, air. By leaving these doors open and in the event of a major fire, the stairwell becomes the provider for the oxygen needed by the fire. As the fire grows, the more demand for oxygen and the more 'suction' created through the stairwell.

 

As for the OP's question, all fire exit doors are opened from the inside, allowing access to the fire escapes/ladders/stairs. In the example given, where the inner stairwell is not accessible, then the nearest fire exit door should be located and the remainder of the escape done via the outer fire escapes.

 

You don't understand.

 

From my hallway, I have access to two stairwells at each end of the building.  There is a breaker bar to open the door.  Once you step inside, the door will close behind you.  There is no knob to open it.  It is now locked.  You have only one place to go, and that is down to the ground floor.  

 

This cannot be safe.  

[TonyClifton]

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

 

I can't believe you've never seen this type of fire safety door before.  

The idea is you only go through that door in the case of a fire, and then you descend to the ground floor where you exit the building.

The doors are locked from the outside as a security measure.  

The doors should have strong auto close mechanisms to ensure that *if* someone does open one, it will close securely behind them.

It is an offense punishable by law in most countries to block these doors, wedge them open or store anything on the fire stairs.

If the rules are followed the fire stairs are a safe way out of a building.

All that is fine, until something blocks the stairs or there is a breach.  Now you are stuck in a stairwell that cannot take you to safety.

[TonyClifton]

How amazing is it that no one has come forward to say that they have seen this setup in Thailand or that this is how their building is setup.  

[al007]

Just now, TonyClifton said:

All that is fine, until something blocks the stairs or there is a breach.  Now you are stuck in a stairwell that cannot take you to safety.

You obviously need to move and urgently

[chrisinth]

8 minutes ago, TonyClifton said:

 

You don't understand.

 

From my hallway, I have access to two stairwells at each end of the building.  There is a breaker bar to open the door.  Once you step inside, the door will close behind you.  There is no knob to open it.  It is now locked.  You have only one place to go, and that is down to the ground floor.  

 

This cannot be safe.  

 

I'm not a fire prevention expert, but what sort of system would they have in your home country? I'm betting it is the same in the respect of being unable to access them from the outside. Unless they are on electronic locks which will automatically open during loss of power or controlled by a master switch?

 

Fire doors are there for a reason, and the reason they close after you have passed through them is to stop air flow from feeding fires.

 

If the building is on fire, there should be no safe floors. Muster points are also there for a reason.

Edited June 17, 2017 by chrisinth

[TonyClifton]

8 minutes ago, chrisinth said:

 

I'm not a fire prevention expert, but what sort of system would they have in your home country? I'm betting it is the same in the respect of being unable to access them from the outside. Unless they are on electronic locks which will automatically open during loss of power or controlled by a master switch?

 

Fire doors are there for a reason, and the reason they close after you have passed through them is to stop air flow from feeding fires.

 

If the building is on fire, there should be no safe floors. Muster points are also there for a reason.

Seriously? I was very clear in my writing that the door closes behind you.  What would be the purpose of locking it?  And no, in the USA you can enter or leave on any floor other than the door to the outside.

[LivinLOS]

21 hours ago, pcliff069 said:

All modern buildings have automated door locking. In the event of a fire the first thing security would do would unlock these doors. 

555 how long have you been here ?? 

 

All modern 'anything' doesnt apply to Thai buildings.

[RBOP]

This seems to be normal Fire Code:

2.3.9 (j) Locking of staircase and smoke stop/fire lift lobby doors

One way locking device is allowed to be provided to doors of exit staircase, smoke stop/fire lift lobby in the following situations, provided only one-way locking device is used, eg panic bolt or thumb turn locking device :

(i) exit door between staircase shaft and occupancy

area; and

(ii) exit access door between smoke/fire fighting lobby

and occupancy area; and

(iii) exit door between staircase shaft and smoke stop

lobby; and

(iv) exit door between staircase shaft and circulation

area; and

(v) exit access door between smoke stop/fire fighting

lobby and circulation area.

For selected floors under subclause 2.3.9(l), the doors of the fire fighting/exit staircase and smoke stop/fire

fighting lobby shall not be fitted with any locking device to allow for re-entry from the staircase to the interior of

the building.

[digbeth]

Fire doors that closes behind you and don't let you back out on the floors is both a security and safety feature, the stair is then used as a fire escape only, not to go up and down floors. and yes in unforseen circumstances it could means you're trapped in the stairway if the lower floors is compromised, bur if the stairway is compromised, the fire would travel up very fast and you're dead anyway.

 

What's worse is the building that use the stair, like for garbage collection and leave doors opened, it's useless as a fire escape if the doors are kept opened

 

 

[RBOP]

30 minutes ago, TonyClifton said:

How amazing is it that no one has come forward to say that they have seen this setup in Thailand or that this is how their building is setup.  

My 2 condo buildings are set up this way.