Thailand to get tough on foreigners working without work permits, employers also targeted

[jimster]

40 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

In answer to the lengthy post above, yes the law is enforced when illegal workers of any nationality are caught.

Well they're not trying very hard because it's still possible to spot Russian and African prostitutes in Pattaya, and even more prominently, what's the deal with Indian and Nepalese restaurant workers who work at Italian restaurants in beach resort towns? Surely the department of labour doesn't issue work permits to these people for such low-skilled work? If I were an enforcement officer, I'd literally be able to round up dozens of illegal workers from Ao Nang, Krabi and Khao Lak alone.

[jamesmith]

whoever wants to work here should have legal document, I think the government here  is doing a good job. That stop some criminals using work to hide in Thailand , stop people work here without proper professional certificate or training  , stop people employ worker who has no proper skill...etc.  

[maxpower]

13 minutes ago, jamesmith said:

whoever wants to work here should have legal document, I think the government here  is doing a good job. That stop some criminals using work to hide in Thailand , stop people work here without proper professional certificate or training  , stop people employ worker who has no proper skill...etc.  

If you stopped people employing those without proper skills etc there would be very few people capable of working.

[khunPer]

There is a complete list here in the graphics of jobs prohibited for foreigners (cannot show image, but can link to this page).

[brewsterbudgen]

Well they're not trying very hard because it's still possible to spot Russian and African prostitutes in Pattaya, and even more prominently, what's the deal with Indian and Nepalese restaurant workers who work at Italian restaurants in beach resort towns? Surely the department of labour doesn't issue work permits to these people for such low-skilled work? If I were an enforcement officer, I'd literally be able to round up dozens of illegal workers from Ao Nang, Krabi and Khao Lak alone.

The Indian/Nepalese probably have residency. Lots of Indians live here legally.

[DLock]

2 hours ago, perthperson said:

"It's a mute argument. DM's are untouchable, unprovable, untraceable" 

 

Keep dreaming.  If the government wished to trace active DN's  be assured they could. DN's  leave a big dirty electronic smear which can be identified to a particular house, condo etc. 

 

This tracing is currently done to identify and arrest on line child groomers, pornographers, drug dealers and other criminal types. 

Paranoid much?

 

DM's are ghosts. They don't exist. Even if they are in plain sight at Starbucks, the Police cannot prove a thing. So what if they are traced...prove that I was working and not meeting girls on Tinder. They can't see my bank accounts, transfers or even my emails. 

 

You need to get out more. CSI isn't real.

[kwilco]

On 6/28/2017 at 5:01 PM, Golden Triangle said:

And they are living in the same condo block as you ? surely with all your wealth you would move to somewhere more suitable, at 10 k a month don't sound to great to me, is it a shoe box ? at least I reside in a 3 bed 2 bath villa with private pool, and I'm one of those down at heel UK expats. Get a real life and stop building your part up, it's most unbecoming.

"I reside in a 3 bed 2 bath villa with private pool, and I'm one of those down at heel UK expats." - pot,kettle black?

[LivinLOS]

16 hours ago, jspill said:

In those cases the crime and deportation was over producing online porn in Thailand, running an online gambling den, etc. Those are irrelevant, they could be done offline and the result would the same. We're talking about just being an amazon affiliate, blogger, internet marketer, freelance writer for overseas clients, etc. etc. No one has ever been convicted of a crime and deported for anything like that, i.e. purely being a digital nomad who doesn't take jobs from Thais or break Thai laws. 

They were charged with multiple crimes.. One of the crimes they were charged with was working online without a work permit. 

 

How can they be charged with a crime, which you claim isnt a crime ?? 

[LivinLOS]

17 hours ago, balo said:

 

Well come and arrest me then. You can interpret the laws as much as you like.

 

My business is in Europe as it has been for the last 7 years.  I enjoy my time in Thailand with money from my business.   And I use my laptop to communicate with my friends and business people in Europe like 100000 ++ others do here in Thailand. 

 

Officals in Chiang Mai welcomes digital nomads ,  , others in Phuket ask for work permits without even mentioning digital nomads because they don't have a clue. 

 

This morning I have been online 3 hours from my cozy chair at home , on Facebook, Skype, e-mail , and I even did a remote session .  I have nothing to hide , if Thai officials have a problem to accept it , no money will be spent in Thailand and I have to relocate to Cambodia.  But it will never happen. 

 

If your so confident lets have your name address and work details and let me report you to the labour dept then ?? 

 

We will soon see who is correct.. Either your right, and the labour department are ok with it, or they are not. 

 

You so confident in your position, thats not a problem is it ?? 

 

[LivinLOS]

21 hours ago, Bastos60 said:

 

1) Anything you state is only about digital nomads allowed to work while on holiday/tourist visa.
     There are absolutely no other interpretations you can quote that counters anything I have stated which is from experience.

2) Again, you are only argueing something I have only confirmed, you can work while on holiday.

 

What you don't get is that you are a bit full of yourself. 
But if you put a little thought into it, you wouldn't be argueing that hard. While digital nomads are allowed to work remote from Thailand, you can only have Thai clientele under
certain conditions and I have explained them,  holding business meetings with Thai customers on their premises requires you to hold a business visa since you actually are conducting business, no police officer is going to check your visa if you enter or exit a Thai business.

 

Nothing is made up, that is just a simple assumption you make.  Don't assume everyone is an idiot. Apply some simple logic.

 

Conclusion : Because immigration officers say you can work for your online business or work remote on a tourist visa, doesn't make you any expert on immigration and labour in anyway.

So in short.. You have nothing to counter the direct clear statements from the labour department ?

Your just saying you have got away with it so far, so it has to be legal.. As for the poster above, if your so sure its legal, allow me to report you, I mean, your sure are you not ? 

[jimster]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The Indian/Nepalese probably have residency. Lots of Indians live here legally.

The Indians that live here legally tend to be Sikhs - they are also Thai citizens. I have my doubts about the very large number of Indians/Nepalese/Bengalis/Pakistanis I am referring to. Also, just because you are living in Thailand legally and have a work permit, it doesn't mean you can do any job you want. Many professions are banned to foreigners. I was also under the impression that any visible customer service role must be filled by Thai nationals. How do these South Asians get away with working these jobs - not only are they not Thai, they don't even look remotely Thai. Unlike Malaysia where ethnic Indians make up 8% of the population, in Thailand there are perhaps 30,000 Sikhs, so it's rather unusual in such a homogeneous country to see a non-East Asian face working in a restaurant or another customer service role. Anyway, I'm just trying to make a point whether or not they are legal is not my concern - as long as they aren't harming anyone.

[jspill]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

If your so confident lets have your name address and work details and let me report you to the labour dept then ?? 

 

We will soon see who is correct.. Either your right, and the labour department are ok with it, or they are not. 

 

You so confident in your position, thats not a problem is it ?? 

 

You're being silly. There are plenty of public online workers like famous blogger Richard Barrow, the Learn Thai from a White Guy, 20000 members of the 'Chiang Mai digital nomads' group, they even hold summits and meetups. 

[jspill]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

They were charged with multiple crimes.. One of the crimes they were charged with was working online without a work permit. 

 

How can they be charged with a crime, which you claim isnt a crime ?? 

You're basing that on one line in the news article which clearly actually means 'working in the capacity of porn', online, without a permit. Or in the capacity of something that takes jobs from Thais, produces services and products (e.g. porn) on Thai soil etc. Which could be done online or offline. No one's arguing against that. 

 

We're talking about digital nomads that tinker around with websites for overseas clients and could be doing it anywhere. 

[jspill]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

So in short.. You have nothing to counter the direct clear statements from the labour department ?

Your just saying you have got away with it so far, so it has to be legal.. As for the poster above, if your so sure its legal, allow me to report you, I mean, your sure are you not ? 

You're saying a couple of soundbites from employees from 2010 and 2014 are direct clear statements, they are not.

 

Also in this old thread I posted a friend of mine did get reported for working online and it was dismissed, he was told he wasn't a criminal when they realised he wasn't taking jobs from Thais, he just had a wordpress blog. 

 

Checkmate!

 

 

[balo]

9 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

If your so confident lets have your name address and work details and let me report you to the labour dept then ?? 

 

We will soon see who is correct.. Either your right, and the labour department are ok with it, or they are not. 

 

You so confident in your position, thats not a problem is it ?? 

 

My work details ?  Why would I talk about my business in Europe when clearly that's none of their business?   The labour dept are worried about jobs inside Thailand , not outside.  

 

If it wasn't for the corruption in Thailand I could actually meet them just to talk .  I have a legal visa to stay here, I am not breaking any laws.  I do not consider answering emails in Europe or having a Skype conversation with someone are breaking the laws in Thailand.

 

Now you can disagree all you like , I don't care, You belong to the minority here. Most people agree with me. 

  

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by balo

[hobz]

15 hours ago, jimster said:

100% agreed.

 

Many DM's work from home (though some of them, due to wanting a bit of a social life and having limited funds prefer to hang out in coffee shops, co-working spaces etc.) and therefore it can't be proven that they are doing anything illegal just by typing away on their laptop inside a coffee shop.

 

There have been articles here in the past about DM's getting busted on having been suspected of working illegally, but they were released when it was determined they were not working for a Thai based firm. This seems to prove that DM's don't require a work permit if they work for a company (including freelance) based abroad and have no dealings with any Thai based entities (whether private or corporations).

 

Why isn't there more focus on foreigners engaging in illegal activities, including visible foreigners performing visibly illegal activities like prostitution, drug dealing, selling wares at a market, working in travel agencies, restaurants and other businesses where they don't employ Thais? Any enforcement officer going for a stroll down Walking Street in Pattaya, Nana Soi 3 or Karon Beach in Phuket could easily round up dozens of foreigners working illegally in minutes. Some of these foreigners are so blase as to almost want to be arrested because their activities are so open. Nigerian drug dealers, Russian prostitutes and travel agency workers, Indian restaurant workers, Bangladeshi roti sellers and the list goes on.

I think corruption is why the russians, nigerians etc get away with it. 

Either you take bribes yourself or you are told to stay away by the police chief that will say that they are "under special surveilance" "dont interfere with ongoing investigation" when in reality the police chief is getting a nice brown envelope every month from his sergeant... Tracing the money gets amwfully embarrassing and dangerous awfully quick.

 

Ps, pure speculation on my part....

 

Another reason could be that russians nigerians are up for deportation and that's a pure cost as they cant even fund their own flight out and russian/nigerian government might be a nightmare to deal with ... I dunnoo..

 

Ps, pure speculation on my part....

Edited June 29, 2017 by hobz

[LivinLOS]

7 hours ago, balo said:

 

My work details ?  Why would I talk about my business in Europe when clearly that's none of their business?   The labour dept are worried about jobs inside Thailand , not outside.  

 

 

And the labour department have said, working online, even if not Thai customers or clients, is work.. That makes it very much thier business. 

I mean if you truly are sure its legal, whats the problem ?? Show us how sure you are of your legality. 

 

If you dont, then your whole argument is shown to be the bullshit it is.. You yourself dont believe it. Put up or shut up !! 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I read the blogger guy's post. It seems to me, bottom line is, he's giving out the same advice that most sensible members here have said for a long time:

 

Quote

 

My advice to you people living the laptop lifestyle. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
 

I have read many discussions on the web about people making money online while traveling and is it really considered “working” as far as the law is concerned. My opinion is no. If you are not buying and selling a product or service in that particular country or reporting to a physical location then I don’t consider it work. But that’s just my opinion, not the law. I wouldn’t go telling anyone about it. If you are typing away on a lap top in your hotel room no one is going to give you any problems. You should be safe unless you tell the wrong person about how you are working online and living it up in Thailand!
 

How would you feel if you told your new buddy in Chiang Mai about your online business and then all of the sudden the police showed up at your door? They know your website, email address, phone number, they even read your text messages about business that you sent to your buddy! Think that’s crazy? Think it can’t happen? Think again!
 

Keep your business to yourself! Tell no one. Work alone in your hotel room. If someone asks you what you do in Thailand? Say, I am a tourist. WOW you have a long holiday! One year??! Yes. I worked hard to save up money for this trip!

 

 

[DLock]

1 hour ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Barrow is a non-profit making travel blogger that works as an English teacher, and as far as I am aware he has a permit for his teaching activities.

 

Don't you worry, if they can prove you are working online in Thailand the Thais will want a piece and that includes having permits for any activities.

 

Just because your mate got off for blogging doesn't mean anything, the fact he was arrested at all shows there is a case to answer and any other time it could have gone the other way. 

 

As LivinLOS says, man up if you are so confident. 

 

 

These arguments are just stupid.

 

If a DM or anyone thinks they can get away with not having a WP...why do you care so much? Let the cards fall how they fall.

 

There are thousands of DM's in Thailand. The chances of getting "caught" and prosecuted is so low, it's a rounding error.

 

No one argues that technically a DM should have a WP,  but equally, there can be little argument that they will ever get "caught". 

 

Live and let live...

[LannaGuy]

2 minutes ago, DLock said:

These arguments are just stupid.

 

If a DM or anyone thinks they can get away with not having a WP...why do you care so much? Let the cards fall how they fall.

 

There are thousands of DM's in Thailand. The chances of getting "caught" and prosecuted is so low, it's a rounding error.

 

No one argues that technically a DM should have a WP,  but equally, there can be little argument that they will ever get "caught". 

 

Live and let live...

ThaiRon say's you don't need one but I agree technically you do but unless you pee orf a Thai who reports you you are more likely to see a Yeti than get caught

[Happyman58]

2 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

ThaiRon say's you don't need one but I agree technically you do but unless you pee orf a Thai who reports you you are more likely to see a Yeti than get caught

Ok guys i have a case here Listen and read  There was this German guy in our street. Opened his mouth and told the huge Thai Lady in our street that he had a job and only had a tourist visa Thought she was his friend In 2 days the police were there He got deported Never Never trust a Thai i tell you

[jspill]

5 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And the labour department have said, working online, even if not Thai customers or clients, is work.. That makes it very much thier business. 

I mean if you truly are sure its legal, whats the problem ?? Show us how sure you are of your legality. 

 

If you dont, then your whole argument is shown to be the bullshit it is.. You yourself dont believe it. Put up or shut up !! 

Maybe he works as a proofreader for western clients and you could hire him :) 

 

The notion that his argument is invalid because he won't send his name and address to some incoherent nut on thaivisa shows how much you're clutching at straws.

[jspill]

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I read the blogger guy's post. It seems to me, bottom line is, he's giving out the same advice that most sensible members here have said for a long time:

Yes because bitter expats will make up stories that you work online in some capacity that takes jobs from Thais, selling products here etc. That was what happened to him in the blog post. Then the police concluded since his online activities have nothing to do with Thailand, it was no issue.

[jspill]

5 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Barrow is a non-profit making travel blogger that works as an English teacher, and as far as I am aware he has a permit for his teaching activities.

 

Don't you worry, if they can prove you are working online in Thailand the Thais will want a piece and that includes having permits for any activities.

 

Just because your mate got off for blogging doesn't mean anything, the fact he was arrested at all shows there is a case to answer and any other time it could have gone the other way. 

 

As LivinLOS says, man up if you are so confident. 

 

 

Ok so the 20000 chiang mai digital nomads members then? 

 

No the blogger was arrested because some jealous old expat claimed his online activities competed with Thais in some capacity. That's what would likely happen if I 'man up' (are you guys in high school?) and send my details to someone here.

 

When they realised what that blogger does online has no physical presence in Thailand he was released. What I do online is the same. You guys really don't seem to understand the difference between the two.

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by jspill

[balo]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And the labour department have said, working online, even if not Thai customers or clients, is work.. That makes it very much thier business. 

 

The labour department again, do you have an official source about  how the labour department feels about digital nomads ?

 

Again , my business in Europe is none of their business.  I can leave Thailand tomorrow and travel the world with my laptop , still online , still "working" .  That's what digital nomads do . If Thailand wants to be a part of the modern world they have to accept that we exist and are not stealing jobs from anyone INSIDE Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by balo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, balo said:

 

The labour department again, do you have an official source about  how the labour department feels about digital nomads ?

 

Again , my business in Europe is none of their business.  I can leave Thailand tomorrow and travel the world with my laptop , still online , still "working" .  That's what digital nomads do . If Thailand wants to be a part of the modern world they have to accept that we exist and are not stealing jobs from anyone INSIDE Thailand.

 

Where /when did anyone from the current government ever say Thailand wants to be "part of the modern world"?

 

When did Thailand ever act like it wants to be part of the modern world?

 

[jethro69]

32 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Where /when did anyone from the current government ever say Thailand wants to be "part of the modern world"?

 

When did Thailand ever act like it wants to be part of the modern world?

 

They think they are, on their terms. No space for negociation.

[Redline]

For tracking purposes primarily

[AloisAmrein]

3 minutes ago, jethro69 said:

They think they are, on their terms. No space for negociation.

 

5 hours ago, balo said:

 

The labour department again, do you have an official source about  how the labour department feels about digital nomads ?

 

Again , my business in Europe is none of their business.  I can leave Thailand tomorrow and travel the world with my laptop , still online , still "working" .  That's what digital nomads do . If Thailand wants to be a part of the modern world they have to accept that we exist and are not stealing jobs from anyone INSIDE Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jethro69, you are absolutely right. Digital nomads work everywhere where they are, mostly for companies in their home country. And they never ever will ask a government if they allow this. I worked always on my travels and I never asked a government for a work permit. I worked for companies in my home country, so this has not to care the country where I spend money as a tourist.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The problem is, AFAIK, the Thai government and its various arms have never been consistent and clear in their enforcement relating to all this (as if they are when it comes to anything here).

 

They could have an employment policy here stating that it's OK to be a digital nomad in Thailand as long as you're not working for any Thai-based entities or producing any work product for use in Thailand. But AFAIK, they're never done that, apart from a few sporadic public comments by local labor or immigration officers in the past.

 

So instead, there is on the law books the broad rules about requirements for work permits and now more substantial penalties for those working without them. And the government actually enforcing silly sanctions against things like farangs painting their own houses or fixing own their fences.

 

The fact that the government hasn't carved out a legal exemption of any kind for nomads kind of leaves them vulnerable to the whims of the local officers and anyone who may have a grudge. Or any other situation that brings them out of their private rooms and into the public domain.

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK