Decree on foreign labour looks like a rush job to academic

[Oceanbat]

Why do all the white people on here suddenly think this is about them? It's about illegal migrant labour on building sites, in factories, on boats, working in call centres, or tour guides. A number that greatly outweighs the number of "farang" working in Thailand either legally or illegally. Some of the new clauses appear directly related to several high profile court cases involving migrant and immigrant labour over the past year. The new law also formalises contract farming.  If you are illegal, then you are illegal. No different to laws in most of our own home countries. Nothing to moan about. Times are a changing. Thailand is growing up.  

Agree. I actually believe this might be related to the recently released TIP report. Hence the urgency.

OB


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[Yme]

Just now, Oceanbat said:

 

Agree. I actually believe this might be related to the recently released TIP report. Hence the urgency.

OB


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The TIP report is closed off at the end of March. So they would have known it would have no effect. It might have something to do with an EU fishing inspection next month though :) 

[Oceanbat]

The TIP report is closed off at the end of March. So they would have known it would have no effect. It might have something to do with an EU fishing inspection next month though :) 

Ah right. Seems they are at least motivated, hopefully it lasts.

OB


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[gemguy]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

It is definitely very strange. This decree is not just an amendment to existing laws.  It is a replacement.  In Section 3 it cancels the 2008 Working of Aliens Act and 22016 Decree on recruitment of foreign labour.  It was approved by the cabinet in March before the new constitution came into effect but has been passed after the constitution came into effect when new laws have to go through a public hearing process, allowing stakeholders to give their views.  Before the 2008 Working of Aliens Act was passed there were detailed public hearings.  Thai industry bodies and foreign chambers of commerce were rightly and properly invited to air their views.   There are huge implications for Thai employers and for foreign investors and in the interests of the economy and society as a whole one would have thought that they and any other stakeholders, such as Thai labour groups would have been allowed their say this time too, through a normal legislative process. 

 

Normally legislation through Royal decrees is reserved for emergency legislation, particularly relating to financial and tax issues, as well as security issues.  They seem to be representing this as a security issue.     

That is correct...but you know how things work here in Thailand.

This will make some money for some people in position to milk the new law for what it is worth

[pattayadgw]

Day in day out its very clear what this government wants.... 'Farangs out of here'.... that's fine.... we can leave and take our money and spend it elsewhere... not a problem....

[hotchilli]

6 hours ago, the guest said:

This xenophobic country has surely sent a very clear message, "we don't want foreigners" !

protectionism at it's worst.

[650721]

I have been here for 2.5 years as an retired expat and this sort of attitude by the thai gov has encouraged me to spend my money elswhere. I currently pay Bht 40,000/mth rent and spend almost as much on living expenses, all of which goes into thai pockets. My lease espires next march and i will be moving to another country. Congrats thailand you are real big thinkers NOT !

[Redline]

A huge opening for abuse, and they can kiss foreign investment goodbye.  Employers will not offer to be put in compromising positions when there are many other countries to do business with more skilled workers, lower wages, lower utilities, and much more welcoming investment climate.

Can they keep making worse decisions?

[Happyman58]

Everybody knows except the government that most companies only employ foreign workers because the Lazy Thais wont work So  who' s fault is it? The companies that are trying to keep things moving or the the Thais who sit on there backsides and do nothing all day?  If they did something to force the Thais to work i would have no problems with these laws

 

Oops 2% unemployment i forgot. Guess they did not allow for 22% of the population scrounging and begging for food? That is a counted as a job i suppose

[Happyman58]

37 minutes ago, 650721 said:

I have been here for 2.5 years as an retired expat and this sort of attitude by the thai gov has encouraged me to spend my money elswhere. I currently pay Bht 40,000/mth rent and spend almost as much on living expenses, all of which goes into thai pockets. My lease espires next march and i will be moving to another country. Congrats thailand you are real big thinkers NOT !

Well said i agree

[Oleg57]

It is very strange - why with 2% unemployment they need "emergency" regulations to kick out foreign workers. With disastrous situation in Thai educational system there are not enough high skilled workers in Thailand. All together with difficulties on taxes, ownership of companies, customs, deception/corruption of police and authorities, certain number of Thai per every farang, etc. make Thailand unacceptable for investors. China is SO MUCH BETTER for investments. And in time Thailand will be a part of Great China. Chinese will clean out corruption and incompetence from this country.

[Boatfreak]

7 hours ago, the guest said:

This xenophobic country has surely sent a very clear message, "we don't want foreigners" !

yes it seems to be the new trend, you are supposed to die where you were born. Everybody is a foreigner somewhere. 

[Boatfreak]

2 hours ago, pattayadgw said:

Day in day out its very clear what this government wants.... 'Farangs out of here'.... that's fine.... we can leave and take our money and spend it elsewhere... not a problem....

That is exactly what the foreigners in the UK are saying right now.

[tonray]

1 hour ago, 650721 said:

I have been here for 2.5 years as an retired expat and this sort of attitude by the thai gov has encouraged me to spend my money elswhere. I currently pay Bht 40,000/mth rent and spend almost as much on living expenses, all of which goes into thai pockets. My lease espires next march and i will be moving to another country. Congrats thailand you are real big thinkers NOT !

Which country will you be moving to ?

[tomacht8]

5 hours ago, navara said:

I really do not understand this unfriendly behavior. It seems that we are not allowed to have a normal life, such as family and job to support your Thai wife and children. ANY Thai who come to the Western world is welcomed and given the chance to get a job and make a honest living. I used to be a carpenter, I am not allowed to work. Even it would be 6.000 baht/month.

So true and annoy me.
If a Thai wife, for example, has a restaurant and her foreign husband helps her to shop and carry the heavy drinks boxes,
the married couple is then in danger of getting high fines up to 800,000 Baht plus prison for it.
And there are unfortunately many money-loving officials who do not miss something like that.
I could puke.
A legislation which is clearly directed against foreigners married with Thais.
It's time to pack the bags.

[KKr]

""Thailand is now home to some two million migrant workers, 1.3 million of whom have been legally employed. The Department of Employment has inspected some 400,000 workplaces in the past eight months and found three percent of inspected workplace violating the regulations. ""

if 35 % of migrant workers are illegally employed, and the inspection of 400.000 workplaces yields three percent violating regulations, it seems either the sample is not representative, or the methodology is flawed.

In any case, the numbers as presented do not lead to a statistically credible conclusion.

[White Tiger]

The way I read this the legislation is aimed at the Thai employers, not the foreign workers. I welcome it if, for example, it persuades school directors to provide the documentation and assistance needed by foreign teachers working at their schools in order to help them get their work permits. I've lost count of the number of stories I've read about foreign teachers struggling to get "legal" because the school they teach at won't help them to get a work permit - I've been in that situation in the past too.

 

If the law is enforced against schools and school directors (as employers) then it might also result in a clear out of any unsuitably qualified teachers as they will find it more difficult to satisfy the requirements to obtain a work permit - meaning the schools decide not to employ them; instead schools who want a foreign teacher will be forced to hire suitably qualified teachers and pay the rate that those teachers fetch on the market. 

[Jasonron]

I don't understand why people get scared. It clearly states that only those who violate the laws will be under threat and punished. Of course this is nothing new.. these rules and regulations have been here for ever. We all know that we have to abide by our contract with employers and have proper work permits and Visas. If this is implemented strictly then it is goodbye for several cheap Charlies disguised as teachers and advisers just extending their holidays .. 

[Felt 35]

House of cards........  after years with being spoilt by the condo management which mostly have hired Burmese hard working maids compare to.....

[tomacht8]

19 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

The way I read this the legislation is aimed at the Thai employers, not the foreign workers. I welcome it if, for example, it persuades school directors to provide the documentation and assistance needed by foreign teachers working at their schools in order to help them get their work permits. I've lost count of the number of stories I've read about foreign teachers struggling to get "legal" because the school they teach at won't help them to get a work permit - I've been in that situation in the past too.

 

If the law is enforced against schools and school directors (as employers) then it might also result in a clear out of any unsuitably qualified teachers as they will find it more difficult to satisfy the requirements to obtain a work permit - meaning the schools decide not to employ them; instead schools who want a foreign teacher will be forced to hire suitably qualified teachers and pay the rate that those teachers fetch on the market. 

I understand your argument, but a Thai director of a government school will certainly not have to pay 800,000 baht or go to jail.
The problem with the non-registered foreign teachers could certainly be solved differently.
The problem are the undifferentiated work laws here.
With this law is certainly not achieved such a goal, more on the contrary.
The law opens the door for corrupt officials who are now able to go on extortion hunting.

[tomacht8]

3 minutes ago, Jasonron said:

I don't understand why people get scared. It clearly states that only those who violate the laws will be under threat and punished. Of course this is nothing new.. these rules and regulations have been here for ever. We all know that we have to abide by our contract with employers and have proper work permits and Visas. If this is implemented strictly then it is goodbye for several cheap Charlies disguised as teachers and advisers just extending their holidays .. 

Be careful when mowing your lawn or doing any repairs outside at your house!

 

[Boatfreak]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

So true and annoy me.
If a Thai wife, for example, has a restaurant and her foreign husband helps her to shop and carry the heavy drinks boxes,
the married couple is then in danger of getting high fines up to 800,000 Baht plus prison for it.
And there are unfortunately many money-loving officials who do not miss something like that.
I could puke.
A legislation which is clearly directed against foreigners married with Thais.
It's time to pack the bags.

a friend of mine got caught when he picked up the phone in his wife restaurant, it was of course a set-up as they called his wife outside and then called the restaurant where he was so unlucky to pick up, enough to be considered an illegal worker,

[debate101]

2 hours ago, Redline said:

A huge opening for abuse, and they can kiss foreign investment goodbye.  Employers will not offer to be put in compromising positions when there are many other countries to do business with more skilled workers, lower wages, lower utilities, and much more welcoming investment climate.

Can they keep making worse decisions?

 

1 hour ago, Oleg57 said:

It is very strange - why with 2% unemployment they need "emergency" regulations to kick out foreign workers. With disastrous situation in Thai educational system there are not enough high skilled workers in Thailand. All together with difficulties on taxes, ownership of companies, customs, deception/corruption of police and authorities, certain number of Thai per every farang, etc. make Thailand unacceptable for investors. China is SO MUCH BETTER for investments. And in time Thailand will be a part of Great China. Chinese will clean out corruption and incompetence from this country.

 

You don't need to keep expecting them to make decisions in the best interests of the country. What's good for them is not good for almost anyone else. There's a word starting with D that could be used to describe the current situation, and it always leads in the same direction. Foreigners being persecuted is just part and parcel of what is happening in this country. It is only just beginning, and it will only get worse.

[sn1per]

6 hours ago, zzidenn said:

Try to work illegally in Germany or any other European country, what's the fuss? I wonder if one gets fined 400k for employing a Burmese maid...will there be a difference if a thai employs an illegal maid, as opposed to a foreigner employing one? So many questions! 

1

I'm going to a national park to think about that one 

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, Boatfreak said:

a friend of mine got caught when he picked up the phone in his wife restaurant, it was of course a set-up as they called his wife outside and then called the restaurant where he was so unlucky to pick up, enough to be considered an illegal worker,

I know of more than a couple of similar incidents around these parts. They prowl around pretending to be customers in restaurants extorting money from the chefs and managers when they do something slightly non chef like.

[LukKrueng]

I don't understand the complaints about it. They didn't change the regulations of who is allowed to work or what type of work. As I understand it, all they did was increase the penalties for those who don't stick to the regulations, as evidently there are many employers and many employees who don't.

[bkkcanuck8]

8 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

I understand your argument, but a Thai director of a government school will certainly not have to pay 800,000 baht or go to jail.
The problem with the non-registered foreign teachers could certainly be solved differently.
The problem are the undifferentiated work laws here.
With this law is certainly not achieved such a goal, more on the contrary.
The law opens the door for corrupt officials who are now able to go on extortion hunting.

Agreed.  It is not the employees that should have to worry about knowing labour laws like if your employer asks you to do something new in your job and you don't realize that you are now outside of your work permit strictly speaking -- then they come down from above and you now owe more money than you earned... or something silly.

 

The penalties and crackdown should be focused ONLY on the employers.  Get rid of demand for illegal labour and there is no reason for illegal labour to come to Thailand in the first place.

[newatthis]

8 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Be careful when mowing your lawn or doing any repairs outside at your house!

 

I think that statement, which is just fear mongering, has been answered many times before.

[Happyman58]

9 hours ago, Oleg57 said:

It is very strange - why with 2% unemployment they need "emergency" regulations to kick out foreign workers. With disastrous situation in Thai educational system there are not enough high skilled workers in Thailand. All together with difficulties on taxes, ownership of companies, customs, deception/corruption of police and authorities, certain number of Thai per every farang, etc. make Thailand unacceptable for investors. China is SO MUCH BETTER for investments. And in time Thailand will be a part of Great China. Chinese will clean out corruption and incompetence from this country.

Wont go that far as to say Thailand will be part of China For a start " Where would they begin  Corruption has totally set in

[Happyman58]

45 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Agreed.  It is not the employees that should have to worry about knowing labour laws like if your employer asks you to do something new in your job and you don't realize that you are now outside of your work permit strictly speaking -- then they come down from above and you now owe more money than you earned... or something silly.

 

The penalties and crackdown should be focused ONLY on the employers.  Get rid of demand for illegal labour and there is no reason for illegal labour to come to Thailand in the first place.

Last part of your sentence  Why do illegal labour come to Thailand is because the lazy Thais wont work Its that simple Everyone one of you who go out and look must wonder why there are so many men sitting around doing nothing. When the government handed out 3,000 baht to the poor a while back i saw the people standing there waiting for that money Lots of men standing there  well with in working age Why are they not working? I started work when i was 15 an apprentice. I worked till i was 60 Very hard being a builder  Here they never seem to start Building sites here full of Khmer Mayamer Laos workers why? Because Thais are to lazy to go ask for a job and after one days work they seem to just disappear So why blame the employers? By the way i am retired so i dont employ workers anymore lol