Terminated from job with no notice

[Sava]

Hi all. Last week I was sacked from my job with immediate effect via email,  having received no prior warning or notice, and was offered one month's salary. I have held my position within the company for 4 years and obviously have Work Permit tied to this. I have been on one year contracts each year. Furthermore my contract states my monthly salary however I only ever received half of this. My understanding is that I will need to visit the Labour Dept and lodge a complaint and they will immediately revoke the WP and extension of stay. Does this mean I have to leave Thailand that day? Or since there is a dispute do I get any leeway? I am pretty much in shock and very concerned for the future, as the job opportunities are very seasonal where I am based. Does anyone have experience or advice they can offer me? Thanks in advance.

[whatawonderfulday]

What reason did they state for your termination and what is the notice period in your contract of employment ? As you have worked for between 3 and 6 years Thai Labour Law states that you are entitled to severance pay of 180 days minimum. but if you say they have only paid you 50% of your contracted salary then have you complained to the Labour Department previously  regarding failure to receive correct remuneration based upon contractual conditions ?

[Somtamnication]

Typically if a visa is tied to a wp, you have 7 days to leave the country.

[Sava]

HI, Thank for responding. I didn't want to rock the boat so I never complained previously to the labour dept. Unfortunately since an accountant dealt with all the paperwork regarding getting the WP etc., I don't have a copy of my contract to hand. I do have a letter of continued employment for each year. My employer is not foolish so if they say that I was on yearly contracts and am only entitled to a month's pay I would tend to believe them.

 

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Somtamnication said:

Typically if a visa is tied to a wp, you have 7 days to leave the country.

There is no 7 days any more. They have to be applied for and a fee of 1900 baht paid.

[1SteveC]

7 minutes ago, whatawonderfulday said:

What reason did they state for your termination and what is the notice period in your contract of employment ? As you have worked for between 3 and 6 years Thai Labour Law states that you are entitled to severance pay of 180 days minimum. but if you say they have only paid you 50% of your contracted salary then have you complained to the Labour Department previously  regarding failure to receive correct remuneration based upon contractual conditions ?

 

Severance would depend on the reason for dismissal.

[1SteveC]

When was the date of termination ? You may already be on overstay.

[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, Sava said:

My employer is not foolish so if they say that I was on yearly contracts and am only entitled to a month's pay I would tend to believe them.

 

The labour department see it differently, yearly contracts are seen as a way round giving full benefits and are treated in law as one continuous contract. I know an employer who got on the wrong end of this and had a nasty shock when someone left.

 

 

[whatawonderfulday]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

The labour department see it differently, yearly contracts are seen as a way round giving full benefits and are treated in law as one continuous contract. I know an employer who got on the wrong end of this and had a nasty shock when someone left.

 

 

Totally correct and whats more the Thai labour Department do not distinguish between Thai of foreign labour so you should contact them asap

[Sava]

Thank you all again! I was on my annual leave in UK when I was emailed. The reason given was health, although it would be very easy for me to refute this. The real reason is that my husband also worked there without a WP and they did not get along, so I was also terminated. I probably am now on overstay by the sounds of it, so should get to an office on Monday. I do feel as if I was on a running contract since no completion date was ever stated and I only ever received continuances.  

[midas]

20 minutes ago, Sava said:

Thank you all again! I was on my annual leave in UK when I was emailed. The reason given was health, although it would be very easy for me to refute this. The real reason is that my husband also worked there without a WP and they did not get along, so I was also terminated. I probably am now on overstay by the sounds of it, so should get to an office on Monday. I do feel as if I was on a running contract since no completion date was ever stated and I only ever received continuances.  

 "  I was on my annual leave in UK when I was emailed. "

 

Didn't even have the courage to tell you face-to-face

good luck I hope you are able to get the maximum award from them

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, Somtamnication said:

Typically if a visa is tied to a wp, you have 7 days to leave the country.

Be careful of your terms. An extension of permission to stay in Thailand on the basis of work ceases to be valid when your employment ceases. If you are actually using a multiple entry Non B, that (and the permission to stay) are unaffected by the end of your employment. Also, when an extension of stay is canceled, you need to explicitly request the 7 days to leave the country, and it costs 1,900 baht.

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

The labour department see it differently, yearly contracts are seen as a way round giving full benefits and are treated in law as one continuous contract. I know an employer who got on the wrong end of this and had a nasty shock when someone left.

 

 

Company tried that one on my wife and the labour dept' based her entitlement on 7 years continuous work.

[retarius]

Bad luck. Why haven't you complained about your salary in the past 48 months. I think it weakens your case now that you have been fired and I imagine they will make something up not very flattering in the event of legal action. It will be difficult for you to stay in Thailand on any extensions...but if you are over 50 it is very easy to get a Non O visa with retirement extensions. Don't embark on any legal moves unless you have the money to see it through. Also note that if you badmouth the company with any legal action, you may well find yourself with a criminal countersuit for defamation.

If I were you I would draw a line under the unhappy experience and try to find another job. 

Something similar happened to me in another country where I was 'retired' off. Instead of getting the 3 years salary I was expecting, I got 46 weeks of salary using the argument that I was a US employee seconded to the offshore job, not a local employee, and hence not entitled to local country separation benefits.

I brought a law suit but it was phenomenally expensive and although I did get the 3 years salary before we went to court, a lot was taken away in legal fees....I would up with about 70 weeks. Was the emotional stress worth it for an additional 24 weeks? It wasn't to me. Sometimes it is better to draw a line under the unhappy event. Good luck.

[jeab1980]

Tell us why the sacked you with immediate effect!

[Maestro]

59 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Tell us why the sacked you with immediate effect!

 

See here:

 

 

[stud858]

Can anyone give accounts of positive outcomes with Thailand labour department? Any examples where they have intervened to help?

[4evermaat]

23 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Can anyone give accounts of positive outcomes with Thailand labour department? Any examples where they have intervened to help?

 

This would make an excellent separate thread.  Should also be a sticky in the business / job forum.

Edited July 2, 2017 by 4evermaat

[overherebc]

32 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Can anyone give accounts of positive outcomes with Thailand labour department? Any examples where they have intervened to help?

See my previous post.

My wife was working for a large multi-national and during the 7 years the company had three different projects. First lasted about 3 years, second one about 18 or 19 months and the remainder of time on the last. Each one was in a different area of Thailand. When the third finished the company had no more large projects so started paying off. 

They tried to tell my wife severance would be based on the last contract. My wife contacted the Labour Court who based their findings on the 7 years of unbroken tax records/employment. 

The company paid.

My belief on being sacked means the employee must have been issued warning letters, two I think, unless the employee causes severe or financial or dangerous problems by lets say deliberate action.

Your local labour court will tell you the situation.

Edited July 2, 2017 by overherebc

[NanLaew]

35 minutes ago, 4evermaat said:

 

This would make an excellent separate thread.  Should also be a sticky in the business / job forum.

Agreed.

 

From what I have learned from foreign friends fully employed outside the teaching industry in LOS, the local Labour Laws are very clear and for the most part, people simply seeking Labour Department assistance to ensure or enforce their employer fulfill their legal obligations regarding any individuals work termination and legal compansation, have been successful. I would suggest that it is one of the few bright spots when dealing with Thai government bureaucracy.

[overherebc]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Agreed.

 

From what I have learned from foreign friends fully employed outside the teaching industry in LOS, the local Labour Laws are very clear and for the most part, people simply seeking Labour Department assistance to ensure or enforce their employer fulfill their legal obligations regarding any individuals work termination and legal compansation, have been successful. I would suggest that it is one of the few bright spots when dealing with Thai government bureaucracy.

They do very much side with the employee.

If the employer wants to fight the case I understand as well that the disputed severance sum may to be placed in a separate account and when the decision is made it is paid to the employee, minus tax, or is returned to the employer.

I also reckon the paid off while on leave in your home country is done with the hope you won't return and fight your case.

[jeab1980]

21 hours ago, Sava said:

HI, Thank for responding. I didn't want to rock the boat so I never complained previously to the labour dept. Unfortunately since an accountant dealt with all the paperwork regarding getting the WP etc., I don't have a copy of my contract to hand. I do have a letter of continued employment for each year. My employer is not foolish so if they say that I was on yearly contracts and am only entitled to a month's pay I would tend to believe them.

 

Plus

The real reason is that my husband also worked there without a WP and they did not get along

 

you say the company is not foolish?

if you have proof that your husband was working there without a WP illegally. Then they are very foolish as you will have them by the danglie bits.

My first port of call on monday would be armed with all the proof is the boss of the company.  For a face to face chat re your position and why they employed someone illegally and wether they would like to to reconsider before you file a complaint!

[Sydebolle]

• 1) Article 118 of the Labour Protection act applies wherein you are entitled to severance pay of 180 days (six months)
  • http://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/labor-protection-act-severance-sections-118-122/
     
• 2) your work permit extension depended on payment of income tax which is the responsibility of the employee. If you can prove that you only got 50% of the agreed salary (the employer actually must prove that they paid you), then you can put that claim in the same application to the Labour court. Here it is well possible that the employer declared double the salary to obtain the work permit - if you can prove it then you can get it. 
  • the severance payment is free of any income taxation as it is not considered income per se.
  • the delayed salary payments though are subject to income tax
  • you can accrue late payment interest; I would file for the applicable MLR (minimum lending rate of commercial banks)
     
• 3) once you're done with 1) and 2) and the money is in the bank, then you go and claim for "unfair" dismissal. Here you can easily claim for at least another four months salary, plus the time frame you were unable to work until the ruling of 1) and 2) was finalized
• during this time you have to be granted a stay visa until the court has ruled

if you need a good lawyer to take up this matter, then you might want to check out the following link:

http://www.kss.co.th/firm-members.html#Sunee
I suggested her to another fellows who were in a similar situation (with 5 ½ years of employment) and they walked with the money as described above after an initial court hearing when the employer gave up and .... paid! 

You have to be prepared to be patient as this will take some time (3 - 6 months); given a professional lawyer you'll never see the bench and can carry on with your life, here or outside Thailand. The legal expenses you incur have to be advanced by you though - depending on case those costs can be tied up in the court case as you are forced to seek legal arbitration at costs which, in the (very likely) case you win. 

All this mentioned here is without legal obligation from my side though; seek proper legal advice but if the employer cannot stick anything on you (and this might be not the case otherwise they would not have employed you that long) then you should do just fine. 

My last comment though is, will the employer/company be able to cough up the money in case you win? There were cases 25 years ago, when a textile company in Rangsit sacked thousands of (Thai) people, got taken to court and lost the cases just to face the fact, that the accused employer's capital in his business bankrupted his business before. 

 

[1SteveC]

1 hour ago, jeab1980 said:

Plus

The real reason is that my husband also worked there without a WP and they did not get along

 

you say the company is not foolish?

if you have proof that your husband was working there without a WP illegally. Then they are very foolish as you will have them by the danglie bits.

My first port of call on monday would be armed with all the proof is the boss of the company.  For a face to face chat re your position and why they employed someone illegally and wether they would like to to reconsider before you file a complaint!

 

And get her husband deeply into trouble too ! So probably not the best idea !

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Sydebolle said:

• 1) Article 118 of the Labour Protection act applies wherein you are entitled to severance pay of 180 days (six months)
  • http://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/labor-protection-act-severance-sections-118-122/
     
• 2) your work permit extension depended on payment of income tax which is the responsibility of the employee. If you can prove that you only got 50% of the agreed salary (the employer actually must prove that they paid you), then you can put that claim in the same application to the Labour court. Here it is well possible that the employer declared double the salary to obtain the work permit - if you can prove it then you can get it. 
  • the severance payment is free of any income taxation as it is not considered income per se.
  • the delayed salary payments though are subject to income tax
  • you can accrue late payment interest; I would file for the applicable MLR (minimum lending rate of commercial banks)
     
• 3) once you're done with 1) and 2) and the money is in the bank, then you go and claim for "unfair" dismissal. Here you can easily claim for at least another four months salary, plus the time frame you were unable to work until the ruling of 1) and 2) was finalized
• during this time you have to be granted a stay visa until the court has ruled

if you need a good lawyer to take up this matter, then you might want to check out the following link:

http://www.kss.co.th/firm-members.html#Sunee
I suggested her to another fellows who were in a similar situation (with 5 ½ years of employment) and they walked with the money as described above after an initial court hearing when the employer gave up and .... paid! 

You have to be prepared to be patient as this will take some time (3 - 6 months); given a professional lawyer you'll never see the bench and can carry on with your life, here or outside Thailand. The legal expenses you incur have to be advanced by you though - depending on case those costs can be tied up in the court case as you are forced to seek legal arbitration at costs which, in the (very likely) case you win. 

All this mentioned here is without legal obligation from my side though; seek proper legal advice but if the employer cannot stick anything on you (and this might be not the case otherwise they would not have employed you that long) then you should do just fine. 

My last comment though is, will the employer/company be able to cough up the money in case you win? There were cases 25 years ago, when a textile company in Rangsit sacked thousands of (Thai) people, got taken to court and lost the cases just to face the fact, that the accused employer's capital in his business bankrupted his business before. 

 

Not sure about the 'no tax on the severance pay'.

[mstevens]

An employer in Thailand can get rid of a member of staff for any reason, or no reason at all.  They do, however, have to pay severance pay according to the law which can be quite steep.  If you get fired there are circumstances under which the employer may not have to pay, but if you get your marching orders for no valid reason or no reason then they have to pay you off.

[Sydebolle]

18 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Not sure about the 'no tax on the severance pay'.

 

There is no tax as it was not earned but considered as a compensation. 

[overherebc]

7 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

 

There is no tax as it was not earned but considered as a compensation. 

Information I have is that tax is paid on anything over 300,000 baht.

[jeab1980]

7 hours ago, 1SteveC said:

 

And get her husband deeply into trouble too ! So probably not the best idea !

Wouldnt have thought so they will back down long before.

[overherebc]

31 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Wouldnt have thought so they will back down long before.

Not sure about that. She should do all on her own circumstances and keep Hubby's situation out of it. My opinion.