5 day tour, auto vs semi-auto?

Rainville · July 5, 2017

Hi All,

I'm doing a 5 day motorbike tour, which will actually be in Vietnam, around Hanoi.

I've driven automatic scooters all around SE Asia, I'm well used to them. Done a few times the road from chiang Mai to Pai without any issue with those for example.

Now, I'm going for this 5 days trip around Hanoi, near the Pu Luong national park called the Limestone loop: http://vietnamcoracle.com/province-of-paddies-and-pinnacles-the-thanh-hoa-loop/#maps

I was going to take a scooter for that, a 135cc or something similar but I'm more and more tempted to use a semi-auto like a Honda Winnder 150cc. Problem is: I've never driven a semi-auto. I'm afraid I won't be as comfortable as on an automatic.

How easy is the transition? Is it worth the effort to get used to a new way of riding?

Is an automatic more than fine for the road I'm going to?

I understand this is a Thai forum, but I thought you guys could be of good advice.

Cheers

Rainville · July 5, 2017

Well never mind me, after thinking about it, going full on manual is a stupid idea if I've never ridden one before.

Semi-auto or full automatic is what I'll be going for.

Kwasaki · July 5, 2017

1 hour ago, Rainville said:

Well never mind me, after thinking about it, going full on manual is a stupid idea if I've never ridden one before.

Semi-auto or full automatic is what I'll be going for.

Well you do have that choice in Asia so why ask.

AllanB · July 5, 2017

We did VN a couple of years ago and my advice is keep an open mind, see what is available when you get there.

We got a Honda Wave...for reliability, we spend £10 having the bike rebuilt and getting an oil change and we were fine, just two flats, cheaply fixed by anyone. We met a bunch of lads on the road and they had had a lot of breakdowns, lost days.

Clutchless manuals are pretty easy to master, just find a decent place and then hire what suits. We had a ball, the best place I have been in Asia, so far.

Ours was 100cc and we rode two up, so anything will do, but actually I would favour the other end Saigon (HCM city) for 5 day. More friendly too, up to you.

One tip....when you get your baguette breakfast, get two, one for lunch. Coffee shops everywhere, but no bloody food!!

Edited July 5, 2017 by AllanB

chrissables · July 6, 2017

Either will be ok, ride what you are used to.

I rode all around Vietnam last year, wonderful ride! Have a look...

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/963199-motorbike-travel-around-vietnam/

JonnyF · July 6, 2017

I did the same thing in 2006, on a beat up semi auto. The semi auto style just felt more authentic than doing it on a modern scooter having watched all the old Vietnam movies with people ripping around on the old Honda Wave style bikes. Same as if I did route 66 I'd want to do it on a cruiser rather than a sportsbike, or in a Mustang rather than a Prius.

In practical terms I'd say either will be fine. On long distances you won't be doing much shifting anyway, pull away, up into 4th and sit there for an hour or two. The semi auto will probably be slightly better on gas but the auto will probably have more underseat storage for your backpack, lunch or whatever. The condition of the bike is more important, just get whatever is newest/in best condition in the rental shop.

AllanB · July 6, 2017

Oh, I just remembered another issue...petrol stations, or rather lack of them. A couple of times we headed into the hills, after first filling the (small) tank. Now the Wave is economical, but when you get into the hills 2 up it isn't and on two occasions we had to turn back, just couldn't find a petrol station.

Now in Thailand they sell it everywhere in old whisky bottles, didn't find that in VN, often didn't find houses, strange for a densely populated country. A road can begin as a main road, tarmacked and then suddenly change to a dirt track, which has you thinking...

Maybe carry a spare litre?

Rainville · July 6, 2017

Thank you all for the great advices!

I think the most important is for us to be comfortable on the bikes. We'll have about a day to get used to it. My friend never rode in Asia so the easiest will be the automatic.

I would love to find a place that rent the new yamaha NVX 155, which would have more than enough power for the hills. But I'll look around on site.

Can't wait!

chrissables · July 6, 2017

4 hours ago, AllanB said:

Oh, I just remembered another issue...petrol stations, or rather lack of them. A couple of times we headed into the hills, after first filling the (small) tank. Now the Wave is economical, but when you get into the hills 2 up it isn't and on two occasions we had to turn back, just couldn't find a petrol station.

Now in Thailand they sell it everywhere in old whisky bottles, didn't find that in VN, often didn't find houses, strange for a densely populated country. A road can begin as a main road, tarmacked and then suddenly change to a dirt track, which has you thinking...

Maybe carry a spare litre?

Actually most villages will have someplace to buy petrol, BUT it seems it is a secret.

When i did my trip along the Ho Chi Minh road, which is really remote in places i filled up an old sprite bottle with petrol. I did need it!

AllanB · July 6, 2017

If you going off into the sticks I would think get a bike that the natives ride, rather than looking for something cool or with a little more performance. What I saw in many of the hire companies were sheds, with engines that had never seen an oil change in years, bits broken and falling off. When we picked up ours we look it straight to a repair shop, the oil they drained out was in a real sorry state.

We rode it about 1000 clicks and changed it again and it really needed it, after that it ran much better,

We picked ours up in Da Nang, a better city than Hanoi, less "communist" if you know what I mean.

You could go really native and get a Minsk....?

Have fun and update us all, we may go back in the winter, by the way you didn't say when you were going. Note, the winters in the north get very cold.

Rainville · July 7, 2017

9 hours ago, AllanB said:

If you going off into the sticks I would think get a bike that the natives ride, rather than looking for something cool or with a little more performance. What I saw in many of the hire companies were sheds, with engines that had never seen an oil change in years, bits broken and falling off. When we picked up ours we look it straight to a repair shop, the oil they drained out was in a real sorry state.

We rode it about 1000 clicks and changed it again and it really needed it, after that it ran much better,

We picked ours up in Da Nang, a better city than Hanoi, less "communist" if you know what I mean.

You could go really native and get a Minsk....?

Have fun and update us all, we may go back in the winter, by the way you didn't say when you were going. Note, the winters in the north get very cold.

Thanks for the tips and good words!

My issue is that I've never driven a semi-auto, let alone a fully manual with clutch. I'm used to automatic scooters, which I drove extensively around Asia.

I'll only have about 36h in Hanoi before we head out to Mai Chau and I believe it's too short to learn and get used to a semi-auto/manual. My goal is to be comfortable, to have fun while driving and focus on the road and traffic, not so much on how to pass a gear :). That's why I believe I should stick with a basic automatic scooter.

My mission now is to find a 150/155cc one, or at the very least a 135cc so we have enough power for the hills in Puluong reserve.

Btw, if any one of you know a place that rent those (yamaha NVX 155/Honda or Honda Vario 150 for example), let me know :).

I'll update this thread in Sept!

Again, thank you all for the advices! Very helpful (looks like I'll be packing sprite bottles).

chrissables · July 7, 2017

1 hour ago, Rainville said:

Thanks for the tips and good words!

My issue is that I've never driven a semi-auto, let alone a fully manual with clutch. I'm used to automatic scooters, which I drove extensively around Asia.

I'll only have about 36h in Hanoi before we head out to Mai Chau and I believe it's too short to learn and get used to a semi-auto/manual. My goal is to be comfortable, to have fun while driving and focus on the road and traffic, not so much on how to pass a gear :). That's why I believe I should stick with a basic automatic scooter.

My mission now is to find a 150/155cc one, or at the very least a 135cc so we have enough power for the hills in Puluong reserve.

Btw, if any one of you know a place that rent those (yamaha NVX 155/Honda or Honda Vario 150 for example), let me know :).

I'll update this thread in Sept!

Again, thank you all for the advices! Very helpful (looks like I'll be packing sprite bottles).

Looking down onto Mai Chau!

And further along the road the "sprite" bottle in use.

wump · July 7, 2017

If you go around the hills I definitely recommend a semi-manual as you can use the engine brake. Brakes on motorbikes do fail when they overheat and I nearly got killed twice on Samui because of that (I always rent autos). Can you imagine the sheer terror if you go down a 10% slope, you pull the brake levers and NOTHING happens? With a semi-manual you could always kick it down to first gear and stop safely or jump off.

Semi-manuals are obviously not as comfortable as autos, but it takes only about 5-10 minutes getting used to them if you've ridden autos before. 36 hours would be plenty, no worries at all.

Edited July 7, 2017 by wump

NoshowJones · July 7, 2017

If you are not planning to go off road, then it's an auto every time, probably a Forza.

Rainville · July 7, 2017

1 hour ago, chrissables said:

Looking down onto Mai Chau!

And further along the road the "sprite" bottle in use.

God it looks breathtaking! I'm so excited.

I hope we won't get too much rain in mid Sept and it'll as magical as your experience.

What's the small village/lake on the 2nd pic? Is it easy to get down there for a swim? If you can pin point that on a map :)

cheers!

tryasimight · July 7, 2017

2 hours ago, wump said:

If you go around the hills I definitely recommend a semi-manual as you can use the engine brake. Brakes on motorbikes do fail when they overheat and I nearly got killed twice on Samui because of that (I always rent autos). Can you imagine the sheer terror if you go down a 10% slope, you pull the brake levers and NOTHING happens? With a semi-manual you could always kick it down to first gear and stop safely or jump off.

Semi-manuals are obviously not as comfortable as autos, but it takes only about 5-10 minutes getting used to them if you've ridden autos before. 36 hours would be plenty, no worries at all.

Ever thought about changing down a gear on a real motorbike?

Sheer terror of a 10% slope??

You must scare easily!!

You only got killed (twice really??...once is enough) because you have/had no idea how to ride a motorbike.

billmichael · July 7, 2017

On 6/13/2017 at 10:14 PM, Bogbrush said:

For what it's worth, I heard years ago that wooden boards were banned in restaurant kitchens etc due to bacteria; they must be plastic. I also have the bleach spray bottle but a far stronger mixture (about 1 bleach/6 water) and put it on tables, sinks, door handles etc - anywhere germs are likely to breed. I probably need to get out more.

5 hours ago, chrissables said:

Looking down onto Mai Chau!

And further along the road the "sprite" bottle in use.

Wowww...!!!

Fabulous, incredible pictures of the countryside. I would be thrilled to be able to see it.

I have a question if someone would educate me. I am amazed that tours are done on a bike with no bigger than a 155 CC engine. How is this possible. My fat rear could not possibly make it up a hill here where I live on anything less than a 650 CC. Am I reading this right? Are small bikes normal? Are larger bikes available? Just asking for a few thoughts and observations about bike travel and the prevalence of large verses small bikes and what is considered practical. Where I live, a Honda or Yamaha 750 (ish) manual shift is considered the normal middle range bike.

just.a.thought · July 7, 2017

Semi automatic or automatic......try ambulance

AllanB · July 7, 2017

2 hours ago, tryasimight said:

Ever thought about changing down a gear on a real motorbike?

Sheer terror of a 10% slope??

You must scare easily!!

You only got killed (twice really??...once is enough) because you have/had no idea how to ride a motorbike.

I think you are being a little unkind here, when I was 18 I had a Triumph Spitfire and in the Alps being "Jack the lad" haring down a hill, top gear, brakes on all the way down. When I reached the bottom there was a hairpin bend and surprise surprise... no brakes. Scared? With a sheer drop of xxxmetres, you bet, I nearly shat.

It taught me a lesson and I think what our friend here is trying to say is watch out, autos lack engine braking, so bikes with gears are better. VN has some serious hills, with bends, adverse cambers, potholes and some of the hills are quite deceptive in their gradient and duration.

We did the Mae Hon Song loop and a Nan province tour on our brand new Finlano, with very good brakes and better than average engine braking and still stopped regularly to allow them to cool down on the steep slopes.

Caution and warnings are no bad things...

PS. When you say "semi auto" and "auto", I assume you mean manual with auto clutch and rubber band. Go for the semi auto.

Edited July 7, 2017 by AllanB

louse1953 · July 8, 2017

11 hours ago, billmichael said:

Wowww...!!!

Fabulous, incredible pictures of the countryside. I would be thrilled to be able to see it.

I have a question if someone would educate me. I am amazed that tours are done on a bike with no bigger than a 155 CC engine. How is this possible. My fat rear could not possibly make it up a hill here where I live on anything less than a 650 CC. Am I reading this right? Are small bikes normal? Are larger bikes available? Just asking for a few thoughts and observations about bike travel and the prevalence of large verses small bikes and what is considered practical. Where I live, a Honda or Yamaha 750 (ish) manual shift is considered the normal middle range bike.

Don't you live in Thailand.Every day i see bikes carrying huge loads,much heavy than you and your huge arse.Slap the faithful ol Wave in to 1st and you will get there.

louse1953 · July 8, 2017

10 hours ago, AllanB said:

I think you are being a little unkind here, when I was 18 I had a Triumph Spitfire and in the Alps being "Jack the lad" haring down a hill, top gear, brakes on all the way down. When I reached the bottom there was a hairpin bend and surprise surprise... no brakes. Scared? With a sheer drop of xxxmetres, you bet, I nearly shat.

It taught me a lesson and I think what our friend here is trying to say is watch out, autos lack engine braking, so bikes with gears are better. VN has some serious hills, with bends, adverse cambers, potholes and some of the hills are quite deceptive in their gradient and duration.

We did the Mae Hon Song loop and a Nan province tour on our brand new Finlano, with very good brakes and better than average engine braking and still stopped regularly to allow them to cool down on the steep slopes.

Caution and warnings are no bad things...

PS. When you say "semi auto" and "auto", I assume you mean manual with auto clutch and rubber band. Go for the semi auto.

You can't hare down with brakes on all the way.The trouble is you don't know how to ride.No wonder brakes were stuffed.

Kwasaki · July 8, 2017

11 hours ago, billmichael said:

could not possibly make it up a hill here where I live on anything less than a 650 CC. Am I reading this right? Are small bikes normal? Are larger bikes available? Just asking for a few thoughts and observations about bike travel and the prevalence of large verses small bikes and what is considered practical.

Riding in Nam they only allow up to 175cc bikes or that was the last l heard as friends from Canada used a Kwacka boss 175 and had trouble until show insurance showing it at 173cc.

11 hours ago, AllanB said:

It taught me a lesson and I think what our friend here is trying to say is watch out, autos lack engine braking, so bikes with gears are better.

Lets get real here an auto bike has some engine braking with the throttle shut, most scoots and the ones OP mentions have front disc brakes which maintained will not fail.

Failure is rare it don't take much to check em.

chrissables · July 8, 2017

15 hours ago, Rainville said:

God it looks breathtaking! I'm so excited.

I hope we won't get too much rain in mid Sept and it'll as magical as your experience.

What's the small village/lake on the 2nd pic? Is it easy to get down there for a swim? If you can pin point that on a map :)

cheers!

Hi,

I posted earlier my day to day route, have a look.....https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/963199-motorbike-travel-around-vietnam/

Where the lake is, is on the road from Mai Chau heading north west on road 6, sorry i can't remember the name of the place, but it was not far.

chrissables · July 8, 2017

12 hours ago, billmichael said:

Wowww...!!!

Fabulous, incredible pictures of the countryside. I would be thrilled to be able to see it.

I have a question if someone would educate me. I am amazed that tours are done on a bike with no bigger than a 155 CC engine. How is this possible. My fat rear could not possibly make it up a hill here where I live on anything less than a 650 CC. Am I reading this right? Are small bikes normal? Are larger bikes available? Just asking for a few thoughts and observations about bike travel and the prevalence of large verses small bikes and what is considered practical. Where I live, a Honda or Yamaha 750 (ish) manual shift is considered the normal middle range bike.

Thanks, the trip was great!

I was 96 kg at the time of the trip, with luggage a lot more, i rode a 150cc Honda. There is no real need for a bigger bike, the roads are not good enough for high speed, just trundle along taking in the views.

It is possible to hire bigger bikes i think, but i have no idea how :)

Edited July 8, 2017 by chrissables

chrissables · July 8, 2017

9 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Riding in Nam they only allow up to 175cc bikes or that was the last l heard as friends from Canada used a Kwacka boss 175 and had trouble until show insurance showing it at 173cc.

Lets get real here an auto bike has some engine braking with the throttle shut, most scoots and the ones OP mentions have front disc brakes which maintained will not fail.

Failure is rare it don't take much to check em.

They have big bikes there, Harley's the lot now.

My PCX had brake failure, in the mountains they can get hot. I was riding down Doi Ang Khan near Fang in the dark when my failed. Fully maintained and a disc brake at the front. A tad unnerving!

After the 3rd time i changed the disc, pads, fluid, the lot, that appeared to do it. But for sure it happens a lot in automatic bikes in mountains.

Kwasaki · July 8, 2017

31 minutes ago, chrissables said:

1. After the 3rd time i changed the disc, pads, fluid, the lot, that appeared to do it.

2. But for sure it happens a lot in automatic bikes in mountains.

1. Correct period maintenance of disc brakes and daily pre-checks before riding is l would say many people don't do.

The cause of your PCX failure was it was not fully maintained properly sorry.

2. No it doesn't if as refereed to previously.

OP the bike you choose get the brakes checked before ye go.

chrissables · July 8, 2017

13 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

1. Correct period maintenance of disc brakes and daily pre-checks before riding is l would say many people don't do.

The cause of your PCX failure was it was not fully maintained properly sorry.

2. No it doesn't if as refereed to previously.

OP the bike you choose get the brakes checked before ye go.

The bike was fully serviced before i lift on the trip. At a Honda dealer, who was told to check everything, as i was traveling.

Pre-check what exactly? What happens is the brakes work fine for hours, the first time i had be in the mountains for 10 hours already riding all the time. Then suddenly nothing. 10 minutes later, working again. It's called brake fade, although i prefer to say failure, and it did not fade, it completely went.

Read this, it explains it better than i.

https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/what-is-brake-fade/

AllanB · July 8, 2017

8 hours ago, louse1953 said:

You can't hare down with brakes on all the way.The trouble is you don't know how to ride.No wonder brakes were stuffed.

Please try to read what I wrote... I was 18 years old and in a car (with front discs) and still learning, when I did that silly thing.

Disc brakes are more efficient, as heat is more easily dissipated, but they still get hot, as I learned aged 18. This guy is hiring a bike so it may have good brakes, but more likely not, especially if it regularly used in the mountains. Hire companies tend to avoid spending money on new pads, often waiting until they are down to the steel plate.

Similarly the scooter may have poor engine braking too, due to wear and tear and lack of maintenance, which is the reality in VN.

So with poor brakes and engine braking you could be in big trouble, even on a 10%er.

There is another point, that of loose gravel, I have seen quite a people hit the deck on scooters by locking up the front wheel, with correct use of the gears it is easier to avoid this.

So, after a rethink, I would now say leave autos alone..........

Edited July 8, 2017 by AllanB

canthai55 · July 8, 2017

14 hours ago, chrissables said:

My PCX had brake failure, in the mountains they can get hot

A direct result of improper operation. My old driving teacher told me - with drum brakes - allow 6 seconds for brake cooling for every second of brake application. Brake for the corner, ride around it, brake, ride ... Works for my PCX, CRF, CBR, Dyna ...

chrissables · July 9, 2017

5 hours ago, canthai55 said:

A direct result of improper operation. My old driving teacher told me - with drum brakes - allow 6 seconds for brake cooling for every second of brake application. Brake for the corner, ride around it, brake, ride ... Works for my PCX, CRF, CBR, Dyna ...

Well i would bet your driving teacher never road a motorbike around mountains such as Doi Ang Khan, especially for 10 hours.

For your information it's classified as one of the steepest roads in Thailand. You don't, if you have any common sense at all, base braking on a number of seconds, brakes are used as required.

As already stated automatic bikes have little engine braking, which necessitates more frequent use of the brakes.

I suffered from "brake fade" the link was posted earlier.

A PCX has a disc brake on front, not a drum brake, and as 70% (about) of braking is done with the the front brake along with no little engine braking, this can cause brake fade.

Besides the PCX, your bikes listed are not automatic and have no relevance to the points made.

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