uk visit visa refusal letter

[darren1971]

here's a summary of my gf's visit visa refusal letter received today...

 

you propose to travel to the uk for one month in order to visit your boyfriend, Mr xxxx xxxxxx, a British national.I acknowledge you pupplied supporting documents from your UK sponsor demonstrating his employment and available funds to support you during your stay in the UK. However I must consider the information regarding your sponsor's support of your visit separately in my assessment of your application. To consider wether or not I am satisfied that your intentions are as stated and that you meet the requirements of the immigration rules, I must assess your own personal and financial circumstances. You state you are going to get married in 2018 with your boyfriend; however the information you have provided do (does - their typo not mine!) not support this claim.

 

You state you are unemployed and you stay at home to take care of your Mother and that you reside with your family. You state that you receive £**** a year from a regular income. I note you state your UK sponsor sends you small amounts of money by International money transfer; you have provided some receipts to demonstrate this.

 

You state you spend 8000THB a month on living costs and you are planning to spend 10000THB on this proposed visit. You state your UK sponsor will contribute £1750 towards the cost of this trip. You have included a letter from your sponsor in which he states he will sponsor you during your time in the UK, although I acknowledge he has the means to do so, in assessing your application I must be satisfied that you will leave the UK at the end of your visit. You are financially dependent on your sponsor and the information you have provided do (their typo again) not demonstrate strong economic ties to Thailand.

 

Given all of the above, I am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry for a purpose permitted by the visitor routes and that you will leave the UK at the end of your visit. Your application is therefore refused.

 

 

Obviously disappointed, considering another attempt where 1. gf gets a job in a restaurant, 2. we are already married....reapply for visit visa then settlement visa, or just go straight for settlement.....Opinions from members appreciated

[bobrussell]

Straight forward lack of reasons to return I am afraid!

A very 'wordy' refusal that says little beyond 'you are dependant on your sponsor and have not given adequate reasons to indicate you will comply with the terms of the visa'.

Regular employment might help but a job taken just to provide reasons to return may be looked upon cynically!

Another application providing more evidence that she will return may be OK if you can provide extra information. Marriage is not going to help with a visit visa unless you are planning to settle in Thailand, if anything it might increase suspicion that the applicant is likely to try to bypass settlement rules.

Plenty of people have been successful getting visas in similar circumstances so take a long, hard look at the weaknesses with this application.

Settlement is for those planning to settle and only if this is the intention. No need for reasons to return!

Edited July 20, 2017 by bobrussell

[darren1971]

2 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

Straight forward lack of reasons to return I am afraid!

A very 'wordy' refusal that says little beyond 'you are dependant on your sponsor and have not given adequate reasons to indicate you will comply with the terms of the visa'.

Regular employment might help but a job taken just to provide reasons to return may be looked upon cynically!

Another application providing more evidence that she will return may be OK if you can provide extra information. Marriage is not going to help with a visit visa unless you are planning to settle in Thailand, if anything it might increase suspicion that the applicant is likely to try to bypass settlement rules.

Plenty of people have been successful getting visas in similar circumstances so take a long, hard look at the weaknesses with this application.

Settlement is for those planning to settle and only if this is the intention. No need for reasons to return!

Agree with your points, unfortunately future marriage in Thailand and then settlement in the UK at a later date is the only valid reason, unless we make one up and we all know that is a stupid idea. I note he suggested there is no proof that we plan to marry so am considering marrying prior to the next visit visa application with the reason to return being we are already married and are planning a settlements visa application. Essentially no different except we are already married. Beyond that there is not much else we can do other than going straight for settlement.

[rasg]

24 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

Obviously disappointed, considering another attempt where 1. gf gets a job in a restaurant, 2. we are already married....reapply for visit visa then settlement visa, or just go straight for settlement.....Opinions from members appreciated

If she gets a job in a restaurant you will have to wait quite some time before applying.

 

If you are married in Thailand you can apply for settlement immediately. The visa lasts for 33 months and she can work immediately. If you marry in the UK the settlement visa lasts for six months and she won’t be able to work. Only when she gets Further leave to remain will she be allowed to work.

 

No reason to return needed for settlement visas.

 

I have seen this a lot recently where the sponsor is sending money to Thailand and effectively being financed by the sponsor before getting a first visit visa. On my wife's first VV I basically said that I was financing the trip completely. Like many she was working away from home and sending 50% of her money home. 40% in apartment rent. Eating free in the hotel where she was working and living and relying on tips for living from day to day. We didn't supply any bank statements at all. I pointed out that she was paid in cash and the money was paid straight out before it ever went near her account. It worked for us but I think things have tightened since 2015.

 

 

[darren1971]

1 minute ago, rasg said:

If she gets a job in a restaurant you will have to wait quite some time before applying.

 

If you are married in Thailand you can apply for settlement immediately. The visa lasts for 33 months and she can work immediately. If you marry in the UK the settlement visa lasts for six months and she won’t be able to work. Only when she gets Further leave to remain will she be allowed to work.

 

No reason to return needed for settlement visas.

 

I have seen this a lot recently where the sponsor is sending money to Thailand and effectively being financed by the sponsor before getting a first visit visa. On my wife's first VV I basically said that I was financing the trip completely. Like many she was working away from home and sending 50% of her money home. 40% in apartment rent. Eating free in the hotel where she was working and living and relying on tips for living from day to day. We didn't supply any bank statements at all. I pointed out that she was paid in cash and the money was paid straight out before it ever went near her account. It worked for us but I think things have tightened since 2015.

 

 

I think if they were convinced about the marriage plans then it might have squeezed through, but it is something very hard to prove in an application. Our plan was and is genuinely to get married and settle in the UK so I might as well get everything in place for that and go ahead with a settlement visa. Considering how long it takes for settlements now I may apply for both after we're married so we can at least be together instead of this horrible 3 months apart every time.

[Denim]

With respect , if the age difference between yourself and your girlfriend is too great it will often influence the outcome of the application even if all other paperwork is perfectly in order.

 

I only point this out as it has been a stumbling block for others .

[darren1971]

2 minutes ago, Denim said:

With respect , if the age difference between yourself and your girlfriend is too great it will often influence the outcome of the application even if all other paperwork is perfectly in order.

 

I only point this out as it has been a stumbling block for others .

28 and 46, nothing too out of the ordinary for Thai/foreigner marriages, certainly don't look like we don't belong together.

 

[rasg]

15 minutes ago, Denim said:

With respect , if the age difference between yourself and your girlfriend is too great it will often influence the outcome of the application even if all other paperwork is perfectly in order.

 

I only point this out as it has been a stumbling block for others .

Total codswallop!

 

 

[Denim]

1 minute ago, darren1971 said:

28 and 46, nothing too out of the ordinary for Thai/foreigner marriages, certainly don't look like we don't belong together.

 

 

Agree100%.

 

I only mentioned it as I knew someone in similar circumstances as you and your gf and apparently what sunk him was a 35 year age difference and the fact his girlfriend had no financial assets in Thailand.

 

On a happier note , many people who fall at the first application often succeed with the second even if the financial circumstances etc are essentially the same.

A second application at least proves you are committed to being together.

 

Anyways, I sincerely wish you both the best of luck with your next shot at it. Love will find a way.

[rasg]

And was the 35 year difference mentioned on the refusal notice? I bet it wasn't.

 

I was 58 and my now wife 37 when we met and we applied for a VV three months after we met (June 2015) with no problems. Four months later (Octobet 2015) we applied for a two year VV which sailed through in eight days. We then abandoned the six months in one year stuff and went for Settlement in the middle of February 2016. Granted at the beginning of March and my wife was back here less than 24 hours later.

[Denim]

1 minute ago, rasg said:

Total codswallop!

 

 

Would that it was. However a 65 year old man trying to take a 22 year old girlfriend with absolutely no financial assets it Thailand will attract the attention of the officer making the decision. Not many young women are seriously physically attracted to a man 40 years their senior. It makes them look like an opportunist gold digger.

This is not my viewpoint but I'm afraid it is a deciding factor, like it or not.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, darren1971 said:

You are financially dependent on your sponsor and the information you have provided do (their typo again) not demonstrate strong economic ties to Thailand.

The problem seems to be that the ECO believes she is totally financially dependent upon you; in which case why would she leave the UK at the end of her visit?

 

You need to convince them that she will leave, and does not intend to remain in the UK illegally once her visa has expired in order to by pass the settlement route.

 

I don't see how getting married will do this.

 

You know your and her circumstances better than anyone, so try and think of convincing reasons.

 

Stating that you and she both know that she cannot convert a visit visa into settlement inside the UK, that you both know she will have to return to Thailand to apply for settlement and that you both know breaking the visit visa rules and overstaying could have a seriously detrimental effect on any future settlement application (immigration rules para 320(11)) does sometimes help in these situations where the applicant are in a relationship and the applicant has no real, concrete reason to return.

[darren1971]

so the question is, if we are already married and all other circumstances the same would the application for a visit visa have carried more weight. It could be argued she has less reason to return but long term if she overstayed a visit visa it would make our chances of her living and working in the UK permanently, i.e together highly unlikely. To me that seems like a lot of risk for little reward as she would not have any of the benefits that settlement offers.

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, Denim said:

Would that it was. However a 65 year old man trying to take a 22 year old girlfriend with absolutely no financial assets it Thailand will attract the attention of the officer making the decision. Not many young women are seriously physically attracted to a man 40 years their senior. It makes them look like an opportunist gold digger.

This is not my viewpoint but I'm afraid it is a deciding factor, like it or not.

The lack of financial assets is more of a deciding factor than the age difference.

[darren1971]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

The problem seems to be that the ECO believes she is totally financially dependent upon you; in which case why would she leave the UK at the end of her visit?

 

You need to convince them that she will leave, and does not intend to remain in the UK illegally once her visa has expired in order to by pass the settlement route.

 

I don't see how getting married will do this.

 

You know your and her circumstances better than anyone, so try and think of convincing reasons.

 

Stating that you and she both know that she cannot convert a visit visa into settlement inside the UK, that you both know she will have to return to Thailand to apply for settlement and that you both know breaking the visit visa rules and overstaying could have a seriously detrimental effect on any future settlement application (immigration rules para 320(11)) does sometimes help in these situations where the applicant are in a relationship and the applicant has no real, concrete reason to return.

You are right, and I did stress these points, but I think the stumbling block was that the ECO just didn't 100% believe we plan to marry and that it was something we cooked up to give her a reason to return. I think the key here is the marriage and the one that is easiest for us to remedy.

[7by7]

15 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

so the question is, if we are already married and all other circumstances the same would the application for a visit visa have carried more weight. 

To be honest, if anything it could cause more harm than good. It could be argued that if already married then she has even less reason to return to Thailand and more to stay in the UK. The ECO may also very well wonder why she is only applying for a visit visa rather than settlement as your wife.

 

15 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

It could be argued she has less reason to return but long term if she overstayed a visit visa it would make our chances of her living and working in the UK permanently, i.e together highly unlikely. To me that seems like a lot of risk for little reward as she would not have any of the benefits that settlement offers.

Unfortunately, due to the punitive and unreasonable financial requirement introduced in July 2012, more and more couples who cannot meet this requirement are looking for other ways to be together in the UK; legal or otherwise.

 

Living for a while in another EEA country and then using the Surinder Singh judgement to move back to the UK under the EU freedom of movement regulations is a popular choice for those who can mange it; but with Brexit that door is being closed.

 

It is a sad fact that this iniquitous financial requirement has forced many otherwise law abiding couples to seek the only way they can of being together; even though it's illegal. Although the 14 year residency rule for illegals was abolished in the changes brought about in 2012, illegals can still under some circumstances be granted permission to remain in the UK; particularly if they have a British partner and children. Not saying it's easy; but it's possible.

 

The ECOs know this.

Edited July 20, 2017 by 7by7

[perthperson]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

The problem seems to be that the ECO believes

I believe the problem is that some 'overthink' the issue and attempt to outsmart the ECO.(difficult!) 

 

The best approach, I believe, is to make an open and completely honest statement of fact. 

 

I remember writing a letter for a friend of my wife who wanted to visit Australia (whose visa requirements are as tough as the UK's) 

This lady had no material assets and worked as a domestic, Her only reasons for return were her extended family and her devotion to the local Buddhist temple. The lady got her visa, enjoyed her holiday and returned to Thailand without pushing her time in Os to the max permitted by the visa. 

[bobrussell]

It is not up to the ECO to judge any relationship. No reason why a relationship with a 25 year age gap should fare any differently to a 2½ year gap.

I doubt the ECO considered the future marriage significant at all unless you presented firm evidence that arrangements were in hand

They have minutes to assess each application. You either tick boxes or you don't. They will not spend that long soul searching over a single application. I suspect you are overthinking this!

If you have firm or even provisional plans then document this but don't expect marriage to aid that much in itself when applying for a visit visa. It is only a reason to return if both of you plan to live in Thailand. Just the opposite if you are planning to live in the UK.

Plenty of people have been granted visit visas in this type of situation but there have to be a really convincing reasons to return.

 

[rasg]

9 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

You are right, and I did stress these points, but I think the stumbling block was that the ECO just didn't 100% believe we plan to marry and that it was something we cooked up to give her a reason to return. I think the key here is the marriage and the one that is easiest for us to remedy.

I don't think it's to do with your plans to marry at all. You don't need to have a plan to marry for a first visit visa. It was her financial situation, the fact that you are supporting her but the big red flag was probably her financial situation.

 

If she is unemployed and looking after her mum where does the £*** a year from a regular income, come from? Where does the 8000 baht come from for living costs? Where does the 10,000 baht come from for the visit?

 

 

 

[7by7]

1 minute ago, perthperson said:

I believe the problem is that some 'overthink' the issue and attempt to outsmart the ECO.(difficult!) 

 

The best approach, I believe, is to make an open and completely honest statement of fact. 

 

I remember writing a letter for a friend of my wife who wanted to visit Australia (whose visa requirements are as tough as the UK's) 

This lady had no material assets and worked as a domestic, Her only reasons for return were her extended family and her devotion to the local Buddhist temple. The lady got her visa, enjoyed her holiday and returned to Thailand without pushing her time in Os to the max permitted by the visa. 

I wrote a similar letter for both of my sister in law's successful UK applications.

 

However, as neither my sister in law nor your friend are in a relationship with their sponsor, the situation is different.

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, perthperson said:

I believe the problem is that some 'overthink' the issue and attempt to outsmart the ECO.(difficult!) 

 

The best approach, I believe, is to make an open and completely honest statement of fact. 

 

I remember writing a letter for a friend of my wife who wanted to visit Australia (whose visa requirements are as tough as the UK's) 

This lady had no material assets and worked as a domestic, Her only reasons for return were her extended family and her devotion to the local Buddhist temple. The lady got her visa, enjoyed her holiday and returned to Thailand without pushing her time in Os to the max permitted by the visa. 

 

 

Agree with that; a sow's ear will always be sow's ear. 

 

Better or to explain why it is a sow's ear rather than try and fabricate it into a silk purse!

[perthperson]

Just now, 7by7 said:

However, as neither my sister in law nor your friend are in a relationship with their sponsor, the situation is different.

Agreed.

All I was attempting to do was to set out an approach which could easily be applied to any application whether a relationship was involved or not.

[darren1971]

10 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

It is not up to the ECO to judge any relationship. No reason why a relationship with a 25 year age gap should fare any differently to a 2½ year gap.

I doubt the ECO considered the future marriage significant at all unless you presented firm evidence that arrangements were in hand

They have minutes to assess each application. You either tick boxes or you don't. They will not spend that long soul searching over a single application. I suspect you are overthinking this!

If you have firm or even provisional plans then document this but don't expect marriage to aid that much in itself when applying for a visit visa. It is only a reason to return if both of you plan to live in Thailand. Just the opposite if you are planning to live in the UK.

Plenty of people have been granted visit visas in this type of situation but there have to be a really convincing reasons to return.

 

As I said, the only convincing reason to return is our plans for uk settlement after marrying in 2018. Other than making something up we have nothing else, no amazing career, property, cars, kids etc etc.... Still I feel we have as much right as anyone to spend some time together in my gf's future planned home prior to marriage. Life doesn't always give you what you want or deserve though.

[bobrussell]

I believe you are much better off sticking to the absolute truth and not trying to dress it up. ECO's are very experienced at weeding out the bits you think they want to read!

Suggestions:

Never 'unemployed' - 'housewife' caring for an elderly relative. This can be a reason to return if backed up with evidence.

Supported by you (if you are). Any income of any sort to be explained fully.

 

Applicant will comply with visa terms in order not to jeopardise future applications might be worth a try but I bet they see this often!

 

Edit: I spoke to an ECO in Bangkok when my gf (now wife of many years) had a visit visa refused. He was actually very helpful (sadly not able to speak to them nowadays). He did make it clear that a visit visa was a privilege not a right.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by bobrussell

[darren1971]

8 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

I believe you are much better off sticking to the absolute truth and not trying to dress it up. ECO's are very experienced at weeding out the bits you think they want to read!

Suggestions:

Never 'unemployed' - 'housewife' caring for an elderly relative. This can be a reason to return if backed up with evidence.

Supported by you (if you are). Any income of any sort to be explained fully.

 

Applicant will comply with visa terms in order not to jeopardise future applications might be worth a try but I bet they see this often!

yep, essentially what I gave them. I think we will bring our marriage plans forward and apply again for a visit visa after married. I would go straight for settlement then but I am having to reorganise how I pay myself to obtain the right income documents - that will take 6 months so no harm trying again for a visit visa whilst that is ongoing.

[darren1971]

to add some clarity this is how I supported the application:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Application for a visitor's visa by XXXXXXXXX

 

I write in support of XXXXXXX application to visit the United Kingdom.

 

RELATIONSHIP

I have been travelling to Thailand for 7 years and in March 2016 I met XXXXX on badoo.com an online dating website. We went on some dates and really enjoyed each others company so spent much of that first month together at the condo I was renting. 

 

I returned again in July 2016 for a further month and we stayed the whole month together and decided we would like to have a more permanent relationship together. XXXXXX did not have any work and lives at home where she is needed to help her Mother and look after her siblings. I decided I should help support her and gave some money to help financially. 

 

Since then I have returned on 3 more 1 month trips (November 2016, March 2017, June 2017) and we have travelled to Chiang Mai, Thaton, Chiang Dao, Phuket and Bangkok together. On my last trip in March 2017 I asked XXXXXX if she would marry me and we plan to get married in March 2018 in Thailand. We would then hope to get a spouse visa and settle in the UK.

 

 I am now sending XXXXXX regular payments by international money transfer directly into her bank. We have considered going straight for a spouse/settlement visa but we both feel it is wiser for her to come for a short holiday first before making such a big step.

 

Our plan now is for XXXXXXX to visit my home in the UK on this visit visa for 1 month, I will then return to Thailand in October 2017 to finalise our wedding plans and discuss how best to take care of XXXXXX mother if/when we are granted a spouse visa and XXXXX moves to the UK. We would then like to Marry in March 2018 in Thailand and apply for a spouse visa as a married couple.

 

I have attached joint flight bookings, copies of money transfers to XXXXXXX bank account and photos of us together in Thailand.

 

WORK AND FINANCE

I own my own business in the UK a partnership with Mr XXXXXXX. I have had this business for 8 years and annual turnover is £X00,000 per annum. I am personally financing all the cost of XXXXXX trip to the UK and I estimate it will be around £1750.00.

I have attached copies of the joint business bank accounts and personal bank accounts.

 

ACCOMODATION

My business includes a 3 bedroom apartment above the business that I share with Mr XXXXXXX. One room will be solely for XXXXXX and Me, one is for my business partner XXXXXXX and there is a third spare bedroom. We also have a large private kitchen/diner/living room. We will stay at this accommodation for the duration of XXXXXX visit with a few weekends away planned to London, Bath and Cornwall.

 

I have attached photos of the accommodation and an Invitation letter from XXXXXXXX (my business partner) to XXXXXX stating he has no objection to her staying.

 

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

Our plan is to marry in Thailand and settle in the UK in 2018 but we both feel that it is wise for XXXXXX to visit the UK first and meet my daughter who lives in London with her mother. We also are fully aware that we need to demonstrate that XXXXXX has a solid reason to return to Thailand at the end of this proposed visit, in absence of a good job, property, children or assets we are concerned that it may be judged that XXXXXX has no reason to return. But, without a successful future application for a spouse visa there is little opportunity for us to progress with our relationship and live together when married. Therefore XXXXXXX WILL be returning to Thailand at the end of this visit visa and she will not be carrying out any paid or unpaid work whilst she is in the UK.

Edited July 20, 2017 by darren1971

[rasg]

Where is the information about your GF's financial situation in your letter?

 

Who will look after your GF's mum while she is away?

 

I think you over emphasised your intention to marry but that's just my opinion.

Edited July 20, 2017 by rasg

[darren1971]

6 minutes ago, rasg said:

Where is the information about your GF's financial situation in your letter?

that was in her letter: I guess I did over egg the marriage thing but it is all we had to go on.

 

Re: Application for a visitor's visa by xxxxxxxx

 

I am unemployed and live in my family home with my Mother, Brother, Sister in law and their two children. I also have a Sister and a twin brother who sometimes stays at the family home.

The house is rented and my brother and his wife help support the family financially. My boyfriend xxxxxxxxx has recently started sending me a small amount to help by International money transfer and I have attached evidence of this to this application.

My Father passed away when I was 14 and my Mother is in bad health, there is very little work near my home and as my Brother and Sister in law both travel to work my Mother is left to take care of two young children alone. I have to be at home to help take care of my Mother so I can only leave for short periods. If this visa is granted my older Sister and twin Brother have agreed to help take care of the family whilst I am away. 

 

I wish to visit the UK for a holiday as we are going to marry in 2018 in Thailand and are considering settlement in the UK. I understand it is important to comply with all the rules of this visit visa as I do not want to jeopardise any future visa application. I understand that if I overstay, fail to return or partake it any paid or unpaid work then it is highly unlikely that we will be granted any future visas.

 

My relationship with xxxxxxxxx is strong and we both want to Marry and stay together forever, at the same time I am very close with my family, especially my Mother and siblings and play a vital role in the families wellbeing. These issues all need to be addressed when we are married and if/when a settlement visa is granted in 2018 .But, we also believe strongly that it is essential for me to at least visit the UK prior to settlement as it is very different to Thailand in many ways.

 

Signed: xxxxxxxxxxx

Edited July 20, 2017 by darren1971

[rasg]

2 hours ago, darren1971 said:

You state you are unemployed and you stay at home to take care of your Mother and that you reside with your family. You state that you receive £**** a year from a regular income. I note you state your UK sponsor sends you small amounts of money by International money transfer; you have provided some receipts to demonstrate this.

How has the ECO gleaned from your sponsor letter and your GF's letter that she has a regular income?

 

How much do you send her each month?

[darren1971]

2 minutes ago, rasg said:

How has the ECO gleaned from your sponsor letter and your GF's letter that she has a regular income?

 

How much do you send her each month?

I send her £200 a month, so we put her regular income is £2400 a year (in the actual application form)

Edited July 20, 2017 by darren1971