uk visit visa refusal letter

[bobrussell]

1 minute ago, catman20 said:

really so if he was 70 and she was 20 it wouldn't be a problem ?

Not under immigration rules!

The ECO has to work out whether on the balance of probability the applicant will return home within the terms of the visa. They are not there to judge a relationship but may be as influenced by their prejudices as anyone else might be. Immigration rules do not allow discrimination on the grounds of age!

I am not sure whether UKVI keep records of sponsor immigration history but someone sponsoring a previous girlfriend might just raise an eyebrow and lead to more detailed examination of an application!

The sponsor actually has no legal financial responsibility for the applicant whilst here on a visit visa.

[hargri]

This topic brought back a lot of memories. I got married to my Thai partner just this year. We met in December 2006. Towards the end of 2007 we applied for a visa for her to visit UK and were refused. One reason was the lack of evidence that we had a relationship and the other was that "on the balance of probabilities" she would not leave the UK before her visa expired. That's a quote and it incensed me. I had made clear that I was sponsoring her visit and paying for everything. As far as I was concerned they were impugning my good character as well as her's. I entered into email correspondence with the Embassy, making clear my displeasure, but they just replied each time that they would not respond and all I could do is reapply. We did just a couple of months later, early 2008, and the visa was granted. In retrospect I got the idea that maybe one of their safeguards on an application that is maybe not totally convincing is to say no and see whether you accept it or put up a fight. She visited UK six times in all before I decided to move here full time. I hope with perseverence you have a similar outcome. Immigration is a hot topic in UK these days so things may have changed. Good luck.

[darren1971]

22 minutes ago, hargri said:

This topic brought back a lot of memories. I got married to my Thai partner just this year. We met in December 2006. Towards the end of 2007 we applied for a visa for her to visit UK and were refused. One reason was the lack of evidence that we had a relationship and the other was that "on the balance of probabilities" she would not leave the UK before her visa expired. That's a quote and it incensed me. I had made clear that I was sponsoring her visit and paying for everything. As far as I was concerned they were impugning my good character as well as her's. I entered into email correspondence with the Embassy, making clear my displeasure, but they just replied each time that they would not respond and all I could do is reapply. We did just a couple of months later, early 2008, and the visa was granted. In retrospect I got the idea that maybe one of their safeguards on an application that is maybe not totally convincing is to say no and see whether you accept it or put up a fight. She visited UK six times in all before I decided to move here full time. I hope with perseverence you have a similar outcome. Immigration is a hot topic in UK these days so things may have changed. Good luck.

Good for you, and I agree, you can't go through life expecting everything you want to go your way, sometimes you have to fight a little.

[tryasimight]

22 hours ago, 7by7 said:

To be honest, if anything it could cause more harm than good. It could be argued that if already married then she has even less reason to return to Thailand and more to stay in the UK. The ECO may also very well wonder why she is only applying for a visit visa rather than settlement as your wife.

 

Unfortunately, due to the punitive and unreasonable financial requirement introduced in July 2012, more and more couples who cannot meet this requirement are looking for other ways to be together in the UK; legal or otherwise.

 

Living for a while in another EEA country and then using the Surinder Singh judgement to move back to the UK under the EU freedom of movement regulations is a popular choice for those who can mange it; but with Brexit that door is being closed.

 

It is a sad fact that this iniquitous financial requirement has forced many otherwise law abiding couples to seek the only way they can of being together; even though it's illegal. Although the 14 year residency rule for illegals was abolished in the changes brought about in 2012, illegals can still under some circumstances be granted permission to remain in the UK; particularly if they have a British partner and children. Not saying it's easy; but it's possible.

 

The ECOs know this.

I have no idea what you are talking about but my guess is that most countries don't want or need another mouth to feed dependent on a person who cannot already look after themselves.

[tryasimight]

22 hours ago, rasg said:

Where is the information about your GF's financial situation in your letter?

 

Who will look after your GF's mum while she is away?

 

I think you over emphasised your intention to marry but that's just my opinion.

I went through a similar thing with my now missus. Had to show proof of money transfer of fund...western union , local government documents, electricity bills in my name etc.

 

If not the guy at the other end sees...I love her...really?

 

Disclaimer...this was in Oz 

[tryasimight]

21 hours ago, darren1971 said:

er brother and sister go to work and pay for most of the family outgoings, my GF helped by looking after their mother and her Brothers children, she also sold a few surplus veggies at the market. She is very poor, left school with no education, in her words she's 'baan nok' - poor country girl

And yet she wrote a very good letter in English describing her family arrangements............sorry old mate...troll is my call

[darren1971]

Just now, tryasimight said:

And yet she wrote a very good letter in English describing her family arrangements............sorry old mate...troll is my call

Her letter was in Thai and a certified English translation was supplied. I could have put the Thai version on here but I'm guessing it wouldn't have helped much... don't be so quick to make assumptions. 

[darren1971]

So considering re-applying for another visitor visa with some changes to address the concerns:

 

My gf will come for 1 month to see our future home, meet my daughter and sit her A1 english test in preparation for our spouse visa application (I will try and pre-book the exam for the last week of her stay) At the end of the visa we will return together to Thailand to get married at the amphur in Chonburi and make our spouse visa application.... Reason to return is still so we can marry and apply for settlement but worded and organised slightly differently.

 

Whatever way we shake it reason to return will be hard considering her circumstances and our future plans, but I'm not going to lie.

[tryasimight]

2 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

So considering re-applying for another visitor visa with some changes to address the concerns:

 

My gf will come for 1 month to see our future home, meet my daughter and sit her A1 english test in preparation for our spouse visa application (I will try and pre-book the exam for the last week of her stay) At the end of the visa we will return together to Thailand to get married at the amphur in Chonburi and make our spouse visa application.... Reason to return is still so we can marry and apply for settlement but worded and organised slightly differently.

 

Whatever way we shake it reason to return will be hard considering her circumstances and our future plans, but I'm not going to lie.

Good luck...but it sounds like reverse Thai visa run to me.

 

Post back in two years...crying

[fordguy61mi]

When I first started dating my fiancé in 2015 I was looking into a tourist visa for her to come visit me in the U.S., but instead of diving right into applying for one, I did some research and found out that because Thailand is considered a highly fraudulent immigration country, that a tourist visa is almost impossible to get for a typical Thai girl that doesn't have an important job or serous ties to Thailand like a house there or kids to return to. Because many Thais in the past just simply never returned on a tourist visa, they assume you won't either and it's up to you to convince them otherwise. In fact, it's not just America. They can't get a tourist visa for most 1st world nations. So I didn't even try for one. They especially won't give you one if you tell them you're going to visit a boyfriend. You can't sponsor someone on a tourist visa, not in America anyway. They'll think you'll get married there and circumvent the normal marriage or fiancé visa process and it's associated fees. She had a girlfriend that got refused who wanted to go to Australia to visit her boyfriend. And she has a friend that actually got one to come to the U.S. but she is a nurse and has a lot of money in the bank. Anyway, I just waited and applied for a K1 fiancé visa and we just got approved and she should have her interview within a month. Good luck to you in your case.

Edited July 21, 2017 by fordguy61mi

[darren1971]

3 hours ago, fordguy61mi said:

When I first started dating my fiancé in 2015 I was looking into a tourist visa for her to come visit me in the U.S., but instead of diving right into applying for one, I did some research and found out that because Thailand is considered a highly fraudulent immigration country, that a tourist visa is almost impossible to get for a typical Thai girl that doesn't have an important job or serous ties to Thailand like a house there or kids to return to. Because many Thais in the past just simply never returned on a tourist visa, they assume you won't either and it's up to you to convince them otherwise. In fact, it's not just America. They can't get a tourist visa for most 1st world nations. So I didn't even try for one. They especially won't give you one if you tell them you're going to visit a boyfriend. You can't sponsor someone on a tourist visa, not in America anyway. They'll think you'll get married there and circumvent the normal marriage or fiancé visa process and it's associated fees. She had a girlfriend that got refused who wanted to go to Australia to visit her boyfriend. And she has a friend that actually got one to come to the U.S. but she is a nurse and has a lot of money in the bank. Anyway, I just waited and applied for a K1 fiancé visa and we just got approved and she should have her interview within a month. Good luck to you in your case.

Certainly a lot of truth in what you say, even though the rate of visas being refused is only 5% I imagine the majority of them are poor Thai girls being sponsored by their boyfriends. That being said I have had 2 granted in the past. I will give it another go as most of the paperwork is together and the fee is not that much, if it fails I am preparing our settlement application anyway... it's a win win apart from the $129 fee for a visit visa I might lose.

[NCFC]

17 hours ago, darren1971 said:

She had a boyfriend before who she lived with for 18 months in Thailand and I speak fairly good Thai having spent 3 months a year in Thailand since 2011. I also had a Thai gf from Bangkok who had lived with me for 11 months in the UK on 2 tourist visas, this was noted by the ECO in the phone interview with my current gf but not in the refusal letter.

I ask this question about meeting online because whether she will return is not the only criterium the ECO is considering. They are also looking at the genuineness of the relationship and for the ECO it might just seem a bit stretched from the ECO's pov that a Thai woman living in baan nok has a great command of the English language and sufficient computing skills to be able to meet and date a farang and might possibily jump to the conclusion that she has spent time working in some of the farang-centric entertainment areas of Thailand. I'm saying this with great respect to you because I met my wife online, too, and she is now in the UK on a settlement visa, but I didn't declare in my application that we met on a dating site because I was concerned it might trigger a negative response in the Eco's mind. I stated on my application form that we met in a department store, which truthfully was the place where we first met in person. 

Anyway, I hope it works out for you both.

Edited July 21, 2017 by NCFC

[darren1971]

1 minute ago, NCFC said:

I ask this question about meeting online because whether she will return is not the only criterium the ECO is considering. They are also looking at the genuineness of the relationship and the for ECO it might just seem a bit stretched from the ECO's pov that a Thai woman living in baan nok has a great command of the English language and sufficient computing skills to be able to meet and date a farang and might possibily jump to the conclusion that she has spent time working in some of the farang-centric entertainment areas of Thailand. I'm saying this with great respect to you because I met my wife online, too, and she is now in the UK on a settlement visa, but I didn't declare in my application that we met on a dating site because I was concerned it might trigger a negative response in the Eco's mind. I stated on my application form that we met in a department store, which truthfully was the place where we first met in person. 

Anyway, I hope it works out for you both.

I totally understand where you're coming from, the truth of the matter is she had a foreign boyfriend for 18 months she also met online and lived with him in thailand, this is where she got so good at English, and I wouldn't say it is brilliant but enough for the basic settlement English test. Obviously I considered leaving it out of the application but I tried to be honest in all aspects because I know full well that if she was tripped up in a phone interview it may have long term negative impacts on future applications, I would prefer a refusal to a black listing everytime.

[7by7]

On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 11:21 AM, English Engineer said:

Sorry forgot to give the link

 

www.freemovement.org.uk/immigration

With respect, whilst Free Movement is an excellent resource, and one I have used myself many times, that page is not the Home Office guidance!

 

I repeat, the actual guidance for decision makers can be found at Visit guidance Version 6.0

[7by7]

23 hours ago, bobrussell said:

 

I am not sure whether UKVI keep records of sponsor immigration history but someone sponsoring a previous girlfriend might just raise an eyebrow and lead to more detailed examination of an application!

They do keep records.

 

I have often told the tale of a woman who was refused because her application made no mention of what had happened to her sponsor's relationship with a woman he had previously sponsored.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, tryasimight said:

I have no idea what you (7by7) are talking about .

That is obvious!

 

21 hours ago, tryasimight said:

but my guess is that most countries don't want or need another mouth to feed dependent on a person who cannot already look after themselves.

That is certainly true of the UK.

 

Even prior to July 2012, when the new financial requirement was introduced, sponsor and applicant had to show that they could support and accommodate themselves without recourse to public funds; i.e. state aid. They still do.

 

The immigrant partner is banned from claiming nearly all public funds, except those for which they have paid sufficient NICs, until they have ILR, which takes 5 years at least to obtain.

 

The sponsor is able to claim any and all non contribution based public funds to which they may be entitled as a single person, but until the applicant has ILR, cannot claim any of the extra which a British couple can claim.

 

See Public funds

[Rob180]

I never went through the process of obtaining visit visas as I married in Thailand, then applied for a Spouse Visa for my wife which was approved very quickly with no issues raised at all. I opted to use an agent for the application (Thai Visa Express) and whilst there was obviously a cost involved in that, I viewed it as money well spent because I knew they would do the job right, as I knew someone else who had used them and had no problems at all with their Visa application.

 

I have a friend who has obtained visit visas twice with no stated intentions of future marriage and he has had no problems at all. He didn't use an agent. Although I don't know your exact situation or exactly what you stated in the application, there must have been something about it which raised concerns with the ECO. Did you do the application yourself or seek any advice from any reputable immigration adviser. By 'reputable' I mean someone who is approved either in the UK or Thailand by the UK Government to provide immigration advice? 

 

Outwith financial matters to pay for the trip and support the applicant during the visit, the application should not be refused if the person does not have a criminal background, does not have any previous history of breaking immigration rules, has a genuine reason to return to Thailand when the visa expires and you have proved that the relationship is genuinely what you have stated, whatever that relationship status is. If you have met once on holiday then applied for a visit visa immediately on your return home, it's likely to be refused. However, if you have returned to Thailand at least once after your first meeting and maintained the relationship through frequent contact for at least 3 months and can prove this through phone records, Skype records, emails and particularly money transfers, it is much more likely to be approved. Some people may say you shouldn't have to send money to prove your relationship is genuine. In an ideal world that's true, but  regular money transfers even if they are small are likely to create an impression that the relationship is genuine, because nobody sends money to someone they do not have some form of relationship with. Doing that would make no sense, unless of course you were donating to a charity.

 

The reason to return part can be difficult to meet criteria such as owning land, a business, family ties etc. Most people that get visit visas don't own land or businesses, so they must have to convince the ECO that the relationship is genuine and the reason for the visit is to sustain the relationship then return to Thailand at the end of the visa. It's not necessary for plans beyond that to be for marriage, because my friend never stated on his girlfriend's application that they intended to marry in future. He applied for the visa after visiting her in Thailand 4 months after he first met her, during that time he kept all the proof of their ongoing contact and the visa was issued without a problem.

 

If you have considered all of these things and yours was still refused, I would suggest contacting a reputable immigration adviser. He would be able to tell you very easily if your application was likeley to be successful or not, and if not, what you need to do to make it more likely to succeed.

[rasg]

3 minutes ago, Rob180 said:

However, if you have returned to Thailand at least once after your first meeting and maintained the relationship through frequent contact for at least 3 months and can prove this through phone records, Skype records, emails and particularly money transfers, it is much more likely to be approved. Some people may say you shouldn't have to send money to prove your relationship is genuine. In an ideal world that's true, but  regular money transfers even if they are small are likely to create an impression that the relationship is genuine, because nobody sends money to someone they do not have some form of relationship with. Doing that would make no sense, unless of course you were donating to a charity.

Hmmmm. Have you read this thread or more specifically the refusal notice that the OP posted?

 

One of the main reasons for refusal was because the sponsor is sending money to his girlfriend in Thailand.

 

My wife got her first visit visa for the UK back in 2015 without me sending money to her. And I didn’t use a visa company. And we had barely known each other for three months. And she owns no land. Or a business... Ties to her family in Thailand? Tenuous at best as she has worked away from home from the age of 13. 

[Rob180]

Hi RASG, yes I read it. I do still think the money aspect helps most applications appear genuine. In this case they seem to have used the money aspect as a negative but it seems doubtful that's the only reason for refusal. They stated they do not think she will return after 1 month. I'm not sure why, my friend's girlfriend had no economic ties to Thailand and she got 2 visas easily.

 

Perhaps stating in the application the intent to get married in 2018 was a mistake, because there was no proof of that in the application. Although that's a hard thing to prove anyway, so it would probably have been best if that had not been in the application. That was one of the reasons I used an Agent, (although I probably would have done it myself for a  Visitor Visa), to avoid putting anything in it that might cause problems. I know many people get Visas without Agents, it's just personal choice and of course not everyone can afford one given the ever increasing costs of visas, English tests etc etc.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Rob180

[rasg]

Sorry. If it wasn't the only reason for the refusal it would be in the refusal letter so that it could be addressed in any subsequent visa application.

 

For a first visit visa application it seems to be a no no to have a sponsor's financial support. It may not have been the case when you applied but things do change. One of the absolute no nos is to stuff an applicants bank account with money. Itt's pretty much a guaranteed refusal. The first thing asked by the ECO is, where did the money come from.

 

It's borne out my wife own wife's first application. No financial support from me. The second VV I was supporting her as she had lost her job and that went through without a hitch.

[Rob180]

I think the whole thing is bizarre. When I applied for the Spouse Visa, I had been sending money monthly, not large amounts. Perhaps as you say sending money is viewed differently when it's not a Spouse? My friend who got the 2 visitor visas never sent any money at all either time, but I have another friend who sent 7/8000b a month for 4 or 5 months and his girlfriend also got a visitor visa without any major problems. I'm not sure how much sending money or not influences the application with Visitor/Tourist visas, or even Spouse Visas.

 

I also wonder if applying for a 1 month visa when it's possible to apply for 6 raises suspicions about motives? The guys I know both applied for 6 month visas.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Rob180

[rasg]

2 hours ago, Rob180 said:

I think the whole thing is bizarre. When I applied for the Spouse Visa, I had been sending money monthly, not large amounts. Perhaps as you say sending money is viewed differently when it's not a Spouse? My friend who got the 2 visitor visas never sent any money at all either time, but I have another friend who sent 7/8000b a month for 4 or 5 months and his girlfriend also got a visitor visa without any major problems. I'm not sure how much sending money or not influences the application with Visitor/Tourist visas, or even Spouse Visas.

 

I also wonder if applying for a 1 month visa when it's possible to apply for 6 raises suspicions about motives? The guys I know both applied for 6 month visas.

A spouse visa is very different. The applicant needs no reason to return to Thailand.

 

Maybe your friend's girlfriend had a job too and he was merely supplementing her income? A job is one of the best reasons to return to Thailand.

 

When a sponsor is sending money to Thai girlfriend and it's her sole source of income it is a problem.

 

If a visit visa is granted it is  is almost always a six month, multi entry visa that is given, whether you apply for one week, one month or six months. Unless you apply for a much longer visa for a lot more money, of course.

 

If you apply for one month and it's successful the applicant will receive a six month visa. If the applicant relies on one months leave from a job and then stay for, say, six months they will need to explain why they didn’t return on time to go back to the job in the next visa application. If it's not a satisfactory explanation, the next visa can be denied.

 

 

[bobrussell]

I don't see where it states that the sponsors financial support is a reason for the refusal. There seem to be some concerns about the claimed income and the UK sponsor sending 'small amounts of money by international money transfer'.

Financial support in this way is not at all unusual but perhaps it could be argued from the phrasing that the amount may not be enough to demonstrate a strong committed relationship!

Padding a bank account with the purpose of making someone look wealthier than they are, is fraught with risks but making larger payments for stated purpose is not sinister eg; household expensed/housekeeping. We did this but we did (and still do) own a property near the airport.

Payments as such are unlikely to be a problem but inadequate income or inadequately explained income may well be.

Plenty of applicants have received visas in not dissimilar circumstances so it may be the detail of the application that has led to the resulting refusal.

[darren1971]

37 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

I don't see where it states that the sponsors financial support is a reason for the refusal. There seem to be some concerns about the claimed income and the UK sponsor sending 'small amounts of money by international money transfer'.

Financial support in this way is not at all unusual but perhaps it could be argued from the phrasing that the amount may not be enough to demonstrate a strong committed relationship!

Padding a bank account with the purpose of making someone look wealthier than they are, is fraught with risks but making larger payments for stated purpose is not sinister eg; household expensed/housekeeping. We did this but we did (and still do) own a property near the airport.

Payments as such are unlikely to be a problem but inadequate income or inadequately explained income may well be.

Plenty of applicants have received visas in not dissimilar circumstances so it may be the detail of the application that has led to the resulting refusal.

I think the issue was that the reason to return was our plans to marry and future visa applications - that could not be proven, add to that the fact that her only regular income comes from me the sponsor and you have enough of a possibility that overstaying is more appealing than returning. It means she would essentially be settling here without having to go through the settlement visa process. With seemingly nothing of value to tie her to Thailand I kind of get the thinking. You could argue that even if I sent no money and she had a low paid job in a restaurant etc that a similar refusal could have occurred.

At the end of the day without a career or job with a decent salary, property of value or other assets in Thailand a refusal on grounds of 'reason to return' is always a strong possibility. I was slightly disappointed that the 2 previous visit visas my ex gf received didn't make much difference, I understand the visa is based on the applicant, but the ECO discussed these visas with my gf during the phone interview so they obviously checked... on both occasions my gf return on time as stated in the application, so I have some form if you like...

[darren1971]

Second attempt, visa granted today. Just goes to show if you get a refusal it is worthwhile addressing the refusal reasons and applying again.... Will just add that I received some help from a member here and it appears to have helped a lot, so listen to the advice of members who have been through the process.

 

Reason to return - because my gf has close ties to her family, no property, no job, no children. So it is possible to obtain a visit visa still even with a less than perfect application.

 

as a side note I have now made 5 visit visa applications since 2011, 2 refusals, 3 approved... It's not impossible but sometimes you just need to make extra effort.

Edited September 10, 2017 by darren1971

[theoldgit]

Two unhelpful posts removed.

[bobrussell]

Congratulations!

It is true that an application can be successful where there are limited family ties and no employment to come back to.

What is required is a sound argument as to why someone on the balance of probabilities, will return.

A relationship and the quality of the evidence for that relationship does count. 

My wife (then gf) had here first visit visa application refused and I was advised by an ECO at the embassy that a bit more time elapsing and a few more photographs of us together should make a difference to the outcome. It did!

How things have changed! You cannot talk to the ECO's now and they they don't want photographs!

It is the quality of the application that matters and it proves that the doom-mongers are often wrong!!!

[rasg]

The main and almost only difference in Darren's GF's visa application after the refusal was that his sponsor letter was reworded. A good sponsor letter is critical.

[dfdgfdfdgs]

On 7/20/2017 at 1:25 PM, darren1971 said:

do (does - their typo not mine!)

I don't think that's a typo, it makes sense.  Information can be a plural.

[darren1971]

My gf has been in the UK for 3 months now, we have both enjoyed the time here but she has decided she does not want to live in the UK. So if anyone like me was considering going direct to the settlement route because a visit visa was refused then I suggest you should at least try a second application. As wonderful as we may or may not think it is in the UK it is not for everyone, her main reasons for not wanting to live here are the cold and the food. I'm happy with how things have worked out because we were seriously considering going direct to the settlement route.