Myanmar men appeal against death sentences over British murders in Thailand

[JohnThailandJohn]

6 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

This was not the cold-blooded murder involving some intra-party Thai-on-Thai rivalry. This was the cold-blooded murder of 2 young UK citizens.

And the reason that no one has come forward with any damaging information as to the true killers may not be because of threats to kill them and their families or destroy their livelihoods, but that nobody HAS such damaging information. Either way, the status as of today is the same.

There DNA, among other things, being on the victim and condemn wasn't enough?

Or are what you and other sayings is you only accept hearsay and gossip as evidence and only when it sheds doubt on these two convicted animals?

[JLCrab]

The only hearsay and gossip I believe I have mentioned is that of those who say there are persons on Koh Tao who know and have corroborable evidence as to who the real killers are but (if you really understood how things are in Thailand and especially on small islands) you would know that such persons will never come forward at risk to their lives and livelihoods.

BTW the only person I remember who came on ThaiVisa and said that he himself was at the bar in question the night of the murders also said that he did not see -- during the time he was there -- the person that many here presume must have been there. For that he was hooted as providing a false alibi as he knew the guy. Well if he did not know the guy by sight, how would he know whether he was there or not?

Edited August 22, 2017 by JLCrab

[nikmar]

14 hours ago, jenifer d said:

those who live on Koh Tao are TERRIFIED to speak the truth because of the power of the perp's family;

even i who do NOT live there am terrified to name the guy- i value my life!!!

 

I have my doubts about the guilt of the Burmese kids but how are you SO sure. Where'd you get your facts from?

[jing jing]

30 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

The only hearsay and gossip I believe I have mentioned is that of those who say there are persons on Koh Tao who know and have corroborable evidence as to who the real killers are but (if you really understood how things are in Thailand and especially on small islands) you would know that such persons will never come forward at risk to their lives and livelihoods.

Such hearsay and gossip, as you call it, is no more or less reliable than that "evidence" which was used to convict the 2 defendants in this case.  Any person capable of critical thinking would naturally be highly skeptical of the verdict rendered.

[JLCrab]

I do not think that the Thai prosecution -- especially in a capital murder case -- proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt ... and so what?

[mommysboy]

Sadly, same as it ever was: nobody on this board can say what happened beyond 50% accuracy.  That's the way it is.

 

Anybody who has lived here for any stretch of time will have major doubts about the competence of the authorities handling the matter, but this rather nebulous defence is unlikely to count.

[Baerboxer]

21 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

You will never, ever convince me that these two midgets killed David and Hanna.  Major cover up of the real guilty parties. 

 

 

There are different possibilities:

• are they innocent scapegoats just grabbed at random?
• did they witness the murders and get fitted up?
• were they involved in someway but with others who are beyond the law?
• did they actually do it?
• possibly more scenarios?

Some people know the answer, but the truth and justice are never likely to come out. Just read that the German lady whose son was murdered 3 years ago is giving up any hope for justice here. Even though the police have cctv evidence and the 5 "well connected from influential families" scum that killed him admitted it, no charges were ever brought and no information sent to the local prosecutors.

 

It doesn't seem that it will ever change. 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

50 minutes ago, nikmar said:

 

I have my doubts about the guilt of the Burmese kids but how are you SO sure. Where'd you get your facts from?

 

Innocent or guilty the two are men.

 

 

[coconuthead]

The amount of violence used was a "loss of face" revenge type, not random robbery or rape.

 

that is the first clue

[JLCrab]

... or extreme yaba second clue

[jing jing]

44 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I do not think that the Thai prosecution -- especially in a capital murder case -- proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt ... and so what?

Precisely... there has quite possibly been a miscarriage of justice resulting in 2 innocent men being condemned to death.  Not so unusual in the annals of legal history, and most Thais could be forgiven for thinking "so what?" especially when the victims of said miscarriage happen to be Burmese.

[AGareth2]

10 minutes ago, coconuthead said:

 

The amount of violence used was a "loss of face" revenge type, not random robbery or rape.

 

didn't look like lust

as was claimed

[JLCrab]

To the post above: I said that the prosecution in my opinion did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. I didn't say anything about the 2 convicted being innocent.

[coconuthead]

the girl had been seeing a local Thai bar owner

[JLCrab]

3 years late better than never.

[stephenterry]

42 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

There are different possibilities:

• are they innocent scapegoats just grabbed at random?
• did they witness the murders and get fitted up?
• were they involved in someway but with others who are beyond the law?
• did they actually do it?
• possibly more scenarios?

Some people know the answer, but the truth and justice are never likely to come out. Just read that the German lady whose son was murdered 3 years ago is giving up any hope for justice here. Even though the police have cctv evidence and the 5 "well connected from influential families" scum that killed him admitted it, no charges were ever brought and no information sent to the local prosecutors.

 

It doesn't seem that it will ever change. 

 

 

As I've said on many occasions that had the B2 committed the murders, the locals would have rounded them up and escorted them to the investigating police. An absence of that indicates that locals were involved, and possibly influential enough to be above the law.

 

Apart from that, there are three more disturbing  reports:-

1 the blond(e) hair found in Hannah's hand was conveniently misplaced/lost

2 none of Hannah's clothes were forensically tested, and again went missing/not presented to the court to add credence to the prosecution's assertions that the B2 were guilty.

3 No original DNA samples taken from Hannah's body were ever presented to court, merely a document that stated there was a DNA match.

 

Any reasonable person would rightly say, if the B2 were guilty of murder why didn't the RTP provide the above as conclusive evidence? And the same reasonable person could assume that the court case was a total fit-up. 

[JLCrab]

So again it is posited that there are locals know who did it but any local who might have been able to implicate the real killers did nothing about it because (fill in the multiple blanks).

Edited August 22, 2017 by JLCrab

[Bluespunk]

45 minutes ago, jing jing said:

Precisely... there has quite possibly been a miscarriage of justice resulting in 2 innocent men being condemned to death.  Not so unusual in the annals of legal history, and most Thais could be forgiven for thinking "so what?" especially when the victims of said miscarriage happen to be Burmese.

I wouldn't forgive anyone who said "so what" to such a gross miscarriage of justice. 

[JLCrab]

Well if you are in a position to do something about it, then why don't you go right ahead and do it.

Edited August 22, 2017 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

So again it is posited that the locals know who did but the locals have done nothing about it because (fill in the multiple blanks).

Actually, that is not what I said. If you take the trouble to read my assertion correctly you might understand. 

[Dogmatix]

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the 2B did it because they were in the vicinity.  However, it is extremely unlikely given what physical evidence was left after the police and island mafiosi had ransacked the crime scene, moved the bodies and spirited away Hannah's clothing.   Also their own physical limitations mitigated strongly against.  With due respect to the Thai court which has to operate in the framework of what can loosely be described as the Thai justice system, there was not a single scrap of evidence other than circumstantial presented by the prosecution that would have been admissible in a Western court of law to incriminate them.  Other than that evidence was deliberately destroyed or overlooked, including the blond hair and Hannah's clothing. That is additional to the fact that the case would have been thrown out without trial due to multiple violations by police and prosecution anyway.  

 

In other words the Supreme Court will probably confirm the death sentences and the real killers will remain at large to continue killing with impunity.    

Edited August 22, 2017 by Dogmatix

[JLCrab]

I understand your assertion because as you said you've said it many times before.

[stephenterry]

1 minute ago, Dogmatix said:

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the 2B did it because they were in the vicinity.  However, it is extremely unlikely given what physical evidence was left after the police and island mafiosi had ransacked the crime scene, moved the bodies and spirited away Hannah's clothing.   Also their own physical limitations mitigated strongly against.  With due respect to the Thai court which has to operate in the framework of what can loosely be described as the Thai justice system, there was not a single scrap of evidence other than circumstantial presented by the prosecution that would have been admissible in a Western court of law to incriminate them.  That is additional to the fact that the case would have been thrown out without trial due to multiple violations by police and prosecution anyway.   

Agree, totally, particularly the last sentence. It is also worth noting that the prosecution's case rested on assertions, not proof that could be validated, verified and substantiated.

[stephenterry]

3 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I understand your assertion because as you said you've said it many times before.

Haven't you got anything better to do today than harass other posters' opinions? 

[transam]

15 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

So again it is posited that there are locals know who did it but any local who might have been able to implicate the real killers did nothing about it because (fill in the multiple blanks).

Would you grass up known thugs on a small island where you earned your living...?

[JLCrab]

No -- it's late August and most people are on vacation and you were the one telling me what I understand or don't understand.

I have no idea what the Supreme Court will do or how it will reach any decision. Personally I think a good outcome would be to uphold the verdict, reduce the sentence to time served, and have the 2 then deported. Not a prediction.

And under the circumstances I would choose to earn my living elsewhere rather than live under such conditions (Thanks BTW before this I never knew 'grass' could be a verb)

Edited August 22, 2017 by JLCrab

[transam]

11 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

No -- it's late August and most people are on vacation and you were the one telling me what I understand or don't understand.

I have no idea what the Supreme Court will do or how it will reach any decision. Personally I think a good outcome would be to uphold the verdict, reduce the sentence to time served, and have the 2 then deported. Not a prediction.

As we all know that has always been your stance but anyone with half a brain from a first world country knows the B2 would not be in prison..

[JLCrab]

Probably not but this is Thailand.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

To the post above: I said that the prosecution in my opinion did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. I didn't say anything about the 2 convicted being innocent.

Yes, this is a very important distinction that others do not seem to be able to grasp.

 

It could be that the two are heavily involved, enough to be guilty of rape and murder.  Yet, the case has been botched rendering the verdict unsafe. This does not mean they are innocent.

 

It may be the only people who can say what went on that night are the Burmese 2.  For whatever reason, they may not be providing a solid account of events, including the possible participation of significant others.

 

Utter conjecture of course, and in this respect it is like most postings.

 

 

[greenchair]

3 hours ago, JohnThailandJohn said:

Don't assume the appeal will be accepted. Not sure how far they are going to get with "we don't like the evidence against our clients" and " we don't trust the police" defense. Didn't work at the trial and didn't work for the previous appeal attempt. My understanding is this is the last chance to get appeal approved.

Yes, that is right. 

But as you say, the second appeal is not different from the first defense and appeal defense. 

I do think it will be accepted. 

But do not think it will win as you say. But no after that, they are entitled to 1 last chance to ask for a royal pardon. They can apply only once and no right to an appeal. 

They can apply for full pardon of sentence, where they accept the verdict, but ask for special circumstances. In that case all previous ruling are void and they would go free. ( highly unlikely to win that ).

Or they can apply for a royal pardon and reduction of sentence, 

Which in my opinion best to accept the sentence and guilt but beg for a pardon from death because of their young age at the time. 

I do hope their lawyers choose carefully.