Myanmar men appeal against death sentences over British murders in Thailand

[transam]

4 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Probably not but this is Thailand.

So you are saying because this is Thailand locking anyone up is OK and you agree with it.....

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, greenchair said:

Yes, that is right. 

But as you say, the second appeal is not different from the first defense and appeal defense. 

I do think it will be accepted. 

But do not think it will win as you say. But no after that, they are entitled to 1 last chance to ask for a royal pardon. They can apply only once and no right to an appeal. 

They can apply for full pardon of sentence, where they accept the verdict, but ask for special circumstances. In that case all previous ruling are void and they would go free. ( highly unlikely to win that ).

Or they can apply for a royal pardon and reduction of sentence, 

Which in my opinion best to accept the sentence and guilt but beg for a pardon from death because of their young age at the time. 

I do hope their lawyers choose carefully. 

So if you did not do a crime you would admit you did it....

[JLCrab]

Whether I agree or disagree with the verdict and locking people up makes no difference in the outcome.

[greenchair]

Just now, transam said:

So if you did not do a crime you would admit you did it....

Well no, when you know that you did the crime and your lawyers know you did the crime and you realise you are not going to get away with it over a technicality and reached the end of the road. 

You do what you should have done in the first place, do the time that fit the crime. 

They are not going to win. 

Don't push the courts. 

They will provide the death penalty if forced. 

These lawyers will have had 4 chances to have their sentence commuted but continue to fight with their fantasy . 

That is ridiculous 

[jing jing]

52 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I wouldn't forgive anyone who said "so what" to such a gross miscarriage of justice. 

Nor would I, back in the west, but in these parts it's pretty much the normal course of events.  To expect otherwise would only result in disappointment.

[transam]

5 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Well no, when you know that you did the crime and your lawyers know you did the crime and you realise you are not going to get away with it over a technicality and reached the end of the road. 

You do what you should have done in the first place, do the time that fit the crime. 

They are not going to win. 

Don't push the courts. 

They will provide the death penalty if forced. 

These lawyers will have had 4 chances to have their sentence commuted but continue to fight with their fantasy . 

That is ridiculous 

So you know they did it..?

 

Can we see your evidence as evidence has been lost by others....?

[stephenterry]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

So if you did not do a crime you would admit you did it....

Unfortunately, considering Thailand's injustice system, that could have been the most pragmatic way of avoiding a death sentence. For example, had they pleaded guilty, the court would have commuted the sentence to one of life imprisonment. Had they been ideal prisoners the current King would have halved their life sentence this year, and in a further two years or so, a further reduction until they had served out (say) 10-12 years. 

 

As of now, they are not eligible for any sentence reduction until their death sentence is commuted. That could be a long time coming. I fear the Supreme Court will let the latest 319 page defence appeal drag on interminably with similar lame excuses that still sees the Red Bull heir avoid arrest. I just can't see them overturning the guilty verdict which carries the death sentence. An appeal to the King would stand a better chance of the sentence being commuted to one of life.

[jing jing]

11 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Well no, when you know that you did the crime and your lawyers know you did the crime and you realise you are not going to get away with it over a technicality and reached the end of the road. 

You do what you should have done in the first place, do the time that fit the crime. 

They are not going to win. 

Don't push the courts. 

They will provide the death penalty if forced. 

These lawyers will have had 4 chances to have their sentence commuted but continue to fight with their fantasy . 

That is ridiculous 

Anyone with even the slightest familiarity with the Thai criminal justice system knows that defendants, especially poor ones, very seldom plead not guilty to whatever crimes they are accused of because they know full well the futility of such a choice.  Not only will the required evidence for a conviction be produced by any means necessary, but the penalty will be far greater than if one simply cops a plea, begs forgiveness, and/or offers restitution.

 

Only someone naive enough to believe that a confession - or any police testimony - has the same credibility in the context of the Thai legal system as in the West would put any faith at all in the verdict reached in this case.  That would be the very definition of naive.

[coconuthead]

 

here is what happened, again its common knowledge on the island

 

 

the girl had been seeing a local Thai bar owner

 

She hooked up with the other backpacker and was on the beach with him when 2 of the bar owners friends saw what was happening.

 

They went and told him, he lost face (which leads to explosive violence).

 

they all went down to beach,  crept up on them and bashed the backpacker boy with the garden hoe then threw him into the sea while he was unconscious.

 

Then the Thai bar owner was the one to smash the girls face with the garden hoe.

[JLCrab]

So where were you while all this was taking place?

[coconuthead]

1 minute ago, JLCrab said:

So where were you while all this was taking place?

 

I was living on the island at the time

[Bluespunk]

54 minutes ago, jing jing said:

Nor would I, back in the west, but in these parts it's pretty much the normal course of events.  To expect otherwise would only result in disappointment.

So be it, disappointment it is. 

[JLCrab]

So you were living on the island but not an eyewitness so someone who was an eyewitness told you what happened?

[JLCrab]

That's OK -- there is one other poster on here who claims to have friends on the island who know exactly and firsthand what happened but that person also last month on ThaiVisa claimed that it is '1000% true' that they were visited by their mother's ghost.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, transam said:

So you are saying because this is Thailand locking anyone up is OK and you agree with it.....

 

I doubt that was what he meant.  Indeed, this is a prime example of making false assumptions based on faulty logic.

 

I took the statement to mean: this is crazy Thailand, and that's what happens here.  And he'd be right wouldn't he?

[transam]

Just now, mommysboy said:

I doubt that was what he meant.  Indeed, this is a prime example of making false assumptions based on faulty logic.

So you doubt that is what he meant and l am making false assumptions YET some here KNOW the B2 did the crime....555555555555

 

Is that NOT a false assumption with faulty logic....Good grief..............

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, coconuthead said:

 

here is what happened, again its common knowledge on the island

 

 

the girl had been seeing a local Thai bar owner

 

She hooked up with the other backpacker and was on the beach with him when 2 of the bar owners friends saw what was happening.

 

They went and told him, he lost face (which leads to explosive violence).

 

they all went down to beach,  crept up on them and bashed the backpacker boy with the garden hoe then threw him into the sea while he was unconscious.

 

Then the Thai bar owner was the one to smash the girls face with the garden hoe.

 

In order for this to be true, someone must have witnessed it, or heard it from the people involved. I doubt that happened.

 

So my guess would be it is one of those rumours that takes hold, and then gets repeated so often that it becomes the accepted truth.

 

What complicates matters is that the island is clearly a place where fantasy has a habit of trumping reality.

 

 

[JLCrab]

What I said was:

"I do not think that the Thai prosecution -- especially in a capital murder case -- proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt ... and so what?"

...meaning (at least I thought) that whatever is my opinion of the verdict ain't gonna change anything.

[Rimmer]

A number of off topic posts have been removed

[Krenjai]

2 hours ago, coconuthead said:

 

here is what happened, again its common knowledge on the island

 

 

the girl had been seeing a local Thai bar owner

 

She hooked up with the other backpacker and was on the beach with him when 2 of the bar owners friends saw what was happening.

 

They went and told him, he lost face (which leads to explosive violence).

 

they all went down to beach,  crept up on them and bashed the backpacker boy with the garden hoe then threw him into the sea while he was unconscious.

 

Then the Thai bar owner was the one to smash the girls face with the garden hoe.

I do believe this is not far from the truth, it fits with many rumors and ''people who claim they know'' posts. So lets re-examine this post:

 

the girl had been seeing a local Thai bar owner

• Not sure on this one, however it was reported he made some advances on Hannah. He likes blond farang girls and she definitely fits the profile. Hannah told her she wasn't interested, the perp lost face in front of his buddies!

She hooked up with the other backpacker and was on the beach with him when 2 of the bar owners friends saw what was happening

• Probably correct, I think however David may have escorted her out of the Bar as she was aggressively being approached by the perp.  [EDIT - David was seen on CCTV walking alone that night so when he came home he may have heard what was going on and came to the rescue paying with his life- END EDIT]

 

They went and told him, he lost face (which leads to explosive violence).

• Absolutely, correct, loss of face leads to one of the most violant reactions which would explain why he inflicted those wounds on her skull.

they all went down to beach,  crept up on them and bashed the backpacker boy with the garden hoe then threw him into the sea while he was unconscious.

• Correct, however not in a million years was David beaten by the hoe. Not only was there no DNA, he had multiple stab wounds (face, head, shoulder, hands) caused by a push-knife clearly proof of a fight that took place. (never introduced in the trial, beats me!)

 

Then the Thai bar owner was the one to smash the girls face with the garden hoe.

• Correct, I also believe this version of events did take place. This scenario is as close as you will get to the truth.

 

ALL IMHO

 

 

 

 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, jing jing said:

Anyone with even the slightest familiarity with the Thai criminal justice system knows that defendants, especially poor ones, very seldom plead not guilty to whatever crimes they are accused of because they know full well the futility of such a choice.  Not only will the required evidence for a conviction be produced by any means necessary, but the penalty will be far greater than if one simply cops a plea, begs forgiveness, and/or offers restitution.

 

Only someone naive enough to believe that a confession - or any police testimony - has the same credibility in the context of the Thai legal system as in the West would put any faith at all in the verdict reached in this case.  That would be the very definition of naive.

 When a lawyer knows full well all that you just said. Knows the damning evidence to be presented  against the defendants. 

Knows the young age and susceptibility of a 21 year old to believe  lawyers  and a friend that they will win on some fantastic story about a mafia, with nothing to back it up. 

Then gambles their lives away with 1 witness to talk about human rights violations in Thailand. 

That my dear is not only naive, but outright stupidity by the people that were supposed to be defending them. 

They would have been out in 10 years. 

They better start hoping for a pardon.

Naivety is believing they will win the supreme. 

 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, greenchair said:

 When a lawyer knows full well all that you just said. Knows the damning evidence to be presented  against the defendants. 

Knows the young age and susceptibility of a 21 year old to believe  lawyers  and a friend that they will win on some fantastic story about a mafia, with nothing to back it up. 

Then gambles their lives away with 1 witness to talk about human rights violations in Thailand. 

That my dear is not only naive, but outright stupidity by the people that were supposed to be defending them. 

They would have been out in 10 years. 

They better start hoping for a pardon.

Naivety is believing they will win the supreme. 

 

Are YOU saying innocent folk should plead guilty....?

[JLCrab]

So with that detailed scenario and analysis as above, who was the root source?

The perp himself
Someone who was also involved in the attack with the perp
Someone who observed the attack and the perp knew they were there
Someone who clandestinely observed the attack without the perp being aware

I mean it has to start somewhere. And of all those tourists from the UK and elsewhere who were with the late Ms. Witheridge that night and the previous few days, not one has ever come forward to publicly state that they saw anyone harassing Ms. Witheridge.

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, transam said:

So you know they did it..?

 

Can we see your evidence as evidence has been lost by others....?

I don't need to provide evidence, apparently thete was "real evidence " presented at the court. That evidence has already been accepted and now we are in discussions about the next step. 

Did you not notice the trial is done. 

 Some story that the bar owner did it and we know that because / well we just know that because someone on the island said , well, try presenting that to the supreme court if you think it would help. 

I don't imagine it would do any good anywhere else in the world. 

If you have something better why don't you just mosy on up to the court and give it to them. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, greenchair said:

I don't need to provide evidence, apparently thete was "real evidence " presented at the court. That evidence has already been accepted and now we are in discussions about the next step. 

Did you not notice the trial is done. 

 Some story that the bar owner did it and we know that because / well we just know that because someone on the island said , well, try presenting that to the supreme court if you think it would help. 

I don't imagine it would do any good anywhere else in the world. 

If you have something better why don't you just mosy on up to the court and give it to them. 

So why did vital evidence go missing in a high profile case....?

[Krenjai]

23 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

So with that detailed scenario and analysis as above, who was the root source?

The perp himself
Someone who was also involved in the attack with the perp
Someone who observed the attack and the perp knew they were there
Someone who clandestinely observed the attack without the perp being aware

 

All of the above:

 

The prep bragging about the event to his friends how we deal with people like that.....

People involved with the prep also bragging about it....

Witnesses who will never come forward because the prep knows who they are...

Potential witnesses who will never say a thing....

 

That is why it is common knowledge and people make statements like 'everybody knows'. It is a lot of gossip talk of course and we will just never know IMHO.

[greenchair]

28 minutes ago, transam said:

Are YOU saying innocent folk should plead guilty....?

Ask any lawyer, guilt or not guilty is neither here nor there. 

They should weigh the scales of evidence against, defendability and the sentence. 

Guilty  had 

Dna, confession, video evidence, possession of the victims items, witnesses that saw them near the crime, their left items at the crime.

The testimony of defendants that confirmed 3,4, 5 and 6 were true 

 

Not guilty had 

1 human rights lawyer to defend the confession. 

1 dna expert that said a small part of dna on the hoe might be a match to Wei po. She did not really say much else. 

Some story about the mafia that has ruled the island for 50 years. 

The villagers have evidence and information but they are not coming to court. 

 

After looking at that they had a choice. 

10 years and deportation home. 

Death. Or a pardon to life so about 30 years with appeals and stuff. 

I know I don't have a lawyers degree, maybe I'm an idiot. 

To me it's a no brainer. 

They did not look at the clients best interests. 

 

[JLCrab]

All of the above or maybe none of the above. Do you know any of those bragging-type things you suggest actually happened or are you saying maybe they happened?

Maybe the reason no one has come forward as witness is that nobody has any first hand information that would mean anything. Either way, as of today, the outcome would be the same. And it all really makes no difference as nobody who might have had any information to exonerate the B2 was willing to come forward when it would have made any difference.

[greenchair]

23 minutes ago, transam said:

So why did vital evidence go missing in a high profile case....?

You cannot present a case to the court of the mafia did it but  we can't prove it because that part of the evidence is lost. 

The judge made his decision on evidence presented. Not some story from tv. 

If is any consolation, I do strongly believe there were almost certainly others. But no evidence so what can you do. 

[transam]

11 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

All of the above or maybe none of the above. Do you know any of those bragging-type things you suggest actually happened or are you saying maybe they happened?

Maybe the reason no one has come forward as witness is that nobody has any first hand information that would mean anything. Either way, as of today, the outcome would be the same. And it all really makes no difference as nobody who had any information to exonerate the B2 was willing to come forward when it would have made any difference.


 

Except the B2 who continually state they did not do the crime....Even offered 10 years inside if   they admitted guilt, they didn't, why was that....?

If I didn't do something I would never admit l did, perhaps you would eh..