No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Two points, since reading the Sunbelt post in another thread:

They are now requiring maps to your home, AND your place of business, as well as pictures. I suppose this could be explained by the need to contact you in an emergency, and by wanting to avoid loss of face by the authority trying to find your home or office. I wonder just what might be described as an 'emergency' though...

Bramburgers has suggested that you 'shop around' at various Immigration offices to find an official sensitive to your situation. This will become immpossible, as you will be required to use the office for your area, ONLY. No more going to BKK, where they may be more likely to shuffle your paperwork through (workload). The local guy will have ultimate power, for better or for worse.

Sateev

Evidently someone forgot the part about pictures of your business and your employees.

Edited September 2, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[PeaceBlondie]

I think that Simon and others are right on track about the only discernible trend in recent visa changes. That trend favors those who are integrating, becoming Thai, marrying Thais, having children who will effectively always be Thais. Thus, the change to effectively double the requirements for a farang-farang married couple who are beyond their child-bearing years, makes sense. In foreign ghettos like San Miguel de Allende, grown children of old hippies proudly proclaim that they are 100% Mexican, and resent being spoken to in English by tourists. The only kids like that in Thailand are missionary kids, who often marry Thais anyway.

I just got an email from another gay farang, asking my uninformed opinion about whether this affects us non-breeders. Yes, it does. Since I can't make any leuk krung babies here, don't speak Thai, can't work legally here even as an English teacher, etc., Thailand has no use for me. It matters not that I've spent 100K per month here for the last 51 months. I also taught 7000 Thais in public schools here, illegally; mai bpen rai. I'm not integrating. I may as well get the He11 out of Dodge.

[naka]

Two points, since reading the Sunbelt post in another thread:

They are now requiring maps to your home, AND your place of business, as well as pictures. I suppose this could be explained by the need to contact you in an emergency, and by wanting to avoid loss of face by the authority trying to find your home or office. I wonder just what might be described as an 'emergency' though...

Bramburgers has suggested that you 'shop around' at various Immigration offices to find an official sensitive to your situation. This will become immpossible, as you will be required to use the office for your area, ONLY. No more going to BKK, where they may be more likely to shuffle your paperwork through (workload). The local guy will have ultimate power, for better or for worse.

Sateev

Evidently someone forgot the part about pictures of your business and your employees.

I would guess that the pic's of the workplace could be a much bigger problem than the

ones for residence !

Naka.

[fleming]

I have the feeling that this is either a bad joke or a terrible mistake.

In the second case, it will hurt Thai people far more than retirees. How many Thais are living on those retirees? real estate, landlord, gardener, restaurant, bar, golf, shop, maid, lawyer, immigration officers,...

I would not be surprised to see a quick back off and cancellation of this new deadborn law.

Edited September 2, 2007 by fleming

[gdhm]

EXTRACT

....All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails....

With reference to your paragraph above ONLY Gent.

I am disappointed that you see things this way Gent. "Financial ability to support yourselves" logic would suggest be that soon Thailand should ask a Farang/Thai needs the same joint level.

If NOT why demand it here for foreign/foreign couples?

If YES how many would make the qualifications? You seem to be suggesting most could, but I think differently and I believe many could not. I also think many who could, may not want 1.6m tied up in a Thai bank earning around .5% to 2.5 net of tax interest (savings or fixed term deposit accounts)

I believe there are many pensioners not that comfortably above the current Visa Thresholds and that they have good lives except having to matching the Visa finance rules that impact on their usable assets and worrying about the serious possibility of potential disastrous financial requirements in the future.

Many long term pensioners' pensions were possibly good when they started drawing their pensions years ago but we all know pensions often get eroded over time and seldom keep pace with the cost of living . UK for instance do not even give Retail price index increases on their state pensions if the pensioner is living outside the EU or a reciprocal social security country (by the way I think Philippines IS a reciprocal country)

The requirement for a husband AND wife EACH having a pension of 65,000baht or 1.6 million in the bank is NOT insignificant to a huge number of people.

I cannot think of many people I know in the UK with 25,000 GBP tied up (unusable in a bank or Building Society account) and there are millions with not even a pension of 65,000 baht a month. Many are still paying off mortgages well into their 60s.

Now when you recognise the average salary in Thailand and the REAL income needed to live in Thailand and NOT be a burden in any form to Thailand then 1.6m is ludicrous as is separate pensions adding up to 130,000 baht a month.

Let us not forget that if a person (s) did start to be burden then their Visa can be revoked at any time and they are only 1 year long max anyway. Thailand is not at risk of being burdened.

One reader says correctly that Farang/Thai married couple are deemed to need only 40,000 baht income a month BETWEEN them. OK, I accept a Thai can probably save more money than a foreign wife and "maybe" she will have smaller expectation for quality of life but nobody can seriously say 1.6m baht in the bank or 130,000baht income a month is a realistic NEED,

I know loads of Thai/Thai families managing to survive on 5,000 (or less) - 10,000 baht a month

Kind Regards, Dave

[chinthee]

I have the feeling that this is either a bad joke or a terrible mistake.

In the second case, it will hurt Thai people far more than retirees. How many Thais are living on those retirees? real estate, landlord, gardener, restaurant, bar, golf, shop, maid, lawyer, immigration officers,...

I would not be surprised to see a quick back off and cancellation of this new deadborn law.

I agree with you. I predict a quick retraction of this badly conceived policy. If you speak widely with Thais you know, you will understand there is no such anti-farang intent in just about any of them, and everyone I have spoken with since yesterday about this are also stunned.

The knock-on effect of this to the detriment of rich Thais who speculate in all the villas they angle to sell to rich farangs in places like Phuket and Samui, will be enough to hurt some powerful people right in the pocketbook. I don't see this law lasting long.

Maybe I'm wrong. If so, in my mind, this marks a sea change in things, and everyone should start preparing alternatives. And we can and will. Most of us have many options, passports that allow us to live in many places.

Thailand is not that special anymore.

[gregybn]

Whew! Just finished all 25 pages of comments, rants and rebuttals.

What can I say... T.I.T. - I ceased being surprised about "things" here long ago.

I've been here (with my farang wife) for 18 months - and we had been pondering the feasibility of getting the retirement visa within the next year or so....

Now = NOT.

Our Plan B or C is Ecuador or Argentina... much more friendly places for folks of our ilk and incomes.

And hey... after trying to learn Mandarin for 6 years... and recently Thai, for 1.5 years... (and not making any spectacular progress with either) - boning up on my pathetic Spanish will seem way easy.

[hgma]

I am a dutchman too

I am shocked....because i live here with my laotian wife and son...another baby on the way.

House registration......what fore????/

own house ???????????????

all the hard work to get myself and family a decent status according to the Law in thailand is been swept aside.

BUT im not giving up....non o multiple entry is the answer.

lets all go to penang...and spend our money down there for a couple of months ...i bet(no not really!) they (thai) cant wait to turn the clock back

hgma

uote name='hansnl' date='2007-09-01 09:07:25' post='1509859']

I suppose the authorities only want farang to visit the country, spend some money and <deleted> off again.

I wonder how many couples will be affected by this, maybe as many as 50000. Which means that quite a hefty amount of spending will go somewhere else (50,000 couples spending 65,000 bath = 3,250,000,000 bath each month)

For that kind of money to be spent by short time tourists, we are talking about hundreds of tourists, costing much more money for Thailand in investment for infrastructure alone.

Fact is that a lot of retirees vist the country where they want to retire a few times before deciding.

Those visits will also disappear.

Less income for Thailand again.

I think the authorities want to see more poor Thai people?

Or maybe they think the farang are dangerous.

We must be, if something goes wrong somewhere, the farang gets the blame.

What is next?

I wonder when we, the married to a Thai woman will be sent out?

I have to be back in Holland next week, guess I will look out for a suitable house to live over there again.

I feel very unwelcome in Thailand by now.

[farang prince]

I have a hunch you are blowing these stats out your ass. Quote a source and specifics or go away.

What a sweetheart...

A quick look at the TAT website shows that in calendar year 2006 the international tourist arrivals excluding Thais numbered 13,821,802.

And how many resident aliens are there in Thailand? And how much did they spend during calendar year 2006? If you have the numbers, I'm sure Simon and I would surely like to know.

[IAMSOBAD]

Help us keep the communists out of our country. Help us get the Japanese out of here during WWII and hey...help us get all of our money back from Japan that they took during the war. Help us recover financially from the 1997 fiasco. While you are at it...help us rebuild and recover from the tsunami with your blood sweat and tears...and CASH! Now...GET THE hel_l OUT OF HERE UNTIL WE NEED MORE MONEY.

Well Said "Doubling the financial requirements for a couple's retirement visa is hardly a "modest refinement", especially in terms of Thai wages, cost of living here and so on. Bend your imagination for a moment, if you will, to consider why many foreign retirees have chosen to live in Thailand. The principal reason is probably their ability to live well and cheaply in a congenial country, rather than scratching out a living in their home countries and working until they are 70-75. Many have invested modest savings, given themselves an annual "salary" to cover the cost of living in Thailand, and planned their financial lives so that they can live here for the duration. These people's money feeds all sorts of Thai businesses and contributes to employment here. Landlords, condo management, restaurants, small shops, food courts, laundries, maid services, transport operators to name a few."

We all need to meet and have a protest with signs and crowds at the earliest. A very good place is at an embassy or news studio.

[tim77]

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a U.S. Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and, (iii) economic and status sanctions against Thailand.

Edited September 2, 2007 by tim77

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

An interesting comment from Thailand's Ambassador to the US in today's Bangkokpost:

"The Thai community in the US has also helped save the image of Thailand. They wrote against a motion proposed by Mark Kirk, the House member from Illinois, to revoke Thailand's status of non-Nato major ally."

http://bangkokpost.com/News/02Sep2007_news07.php

Perhaps Thailand should be reminded that the Thai communities in the US might be subject to similar regulations. Perhaps writing to the same representatives in the US particularly letters from Americans might evoke an official response to the current situation.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

[JR Texas]

An interesting comment from Thailand's Ambassador to the US in today's Bangkokpost:

"The Thai community in the US has also helped save the image of Thailand. They wrote against a motion proposed by Mark Kirk, the House member from Illinois, to revoke Thailand's status of non-Nato major ally."

http://bangkokpost.com/News/02Sep2007_news07.php

Perhaps Thailand should be reminded that the Thai communities in the US might be subject to similar regulations. Perhaps writing to the same representatives in the US particularly letters from Americans might evoke an official response to the current situation.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

Many of the good people that are being pushed out the Thai door are especially needed during the off season. Like the other rule changes, this one will hurt the economy and Thais the most. In the long run it will hurt investment and tourism.

I think it is way past time to try to rationalize these crazy rule changes and to paint them as being "good for Thailand." These changes are underpinned by a growing xenophobic attitude towards Westerners that seemed to begin with TOXIN......they seem to be a direct attack against Western males (for reasons that all of us can easily figure out).

What surprises me most is that they are being enacted while the "glue" of Thailand is still with us. Once the glue that holds the country together is no longer with us, I predict that all hel_l will break loose and xenophobia will rise sharply. We rarely talk about this......but it should concern every expat.

If you are grandfathered in and think only bad people (poor people?) are being hurt.........if you think it will never happen to you because you are of "high quality,"....if you think a new-old regime will roll back these negative changes........maybe it is time to rethink your position.

There is an immigration bulldozer on the horizon and it is headed in your direction. Refuse to acknowledge it.......laugh at it........talk about it as a good thing.....and it will eventually crush you. To avoid it, just get out of the way.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a US Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and (iii) economic sanctions against Thailand.

Don't waste your effort writing to the Embassy. Like most Americans you don't count there as long as GWB is calling the shots. Writing to the following senators and representatives might get more accomplished. Two are democrats, one is a Republican.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown

455 Russell Senate Office Bldg.

Washington, DC 20510

Fax +1-202-228-6321

U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan

322 Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

Fax: 202-224-1193

[melbat]

Altho I'm not affected by these recent changes.....I'm on a retirement visa and married to a thai, it does make me wonder what [and when] THE NEXT SURPRISE will come and will it affect me??

I do have friends that this will affect and they are now wondering what to do......most are living on a shoe-string budget already and can't afford the doubling of reqired 800k bhatt. Most are thinking of alternatives to LOS, but at 60+, with significent investments in realestate and deep roots here, they are reluctant to leave.

When i first retired to LOS [10 yrs ago], I had already explored much of asia looking for that perfect place and i was fooled into thinking it was here....quality lifestyle for reasonable costs was the deciding factor, but with all these new $$ requirements, inflation, decreasing value of my $.....it's got me thinking about a "PLAN-B".

BUT WHERE NEXT??

Try the Philippines.. Thats where I'm heading. They really want you there and welcome you with open arms. Thailand dont want us.. dispite all the money we bring here. I'm sick of all these rule changes every 5 mins.. none of us know where we are now and what will happen next. I really belive some rich Thai's wont be happy untill all the low class Thai's are back in villages surviving on a bowl of rice a day. Also the Philippines is much cheaper place to live and the Filipino's are far more hospitable that most Thais are these days. Get a Filipino wife.. you wont regret it.

[tim77]

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a US Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and (iii) economic sanctions against Thailand.

Don't waste your effort writing to the Embassy. Like most Americans you don't count there as long as GWB is calling the shots. Writing to the following senators and representatives might get more accomplished. Two are democrats, one is a Republican.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown

455 Russell Senate Office Bldg.

Washington, DC 20510

Fax +1-202-228-6321

U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan

322 Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

Fax: 202-224-1193

Thank you for the suggestions and the addresses. May I ask other forum member to also post address where our communications can be sent.

[Hog Head]

My retirement renewal comes up this week, and I think I will see if it is possible to change to a married to a Thai. Intrestingly enough, this is what I first wanted but Immigration insisted on giving me a retirement as is was easier for them in not having to interview my neighbours.

Is is possible to simply change?

While this most recent rule change does not affect me personally, I am concerned by the lack of grandfathering. I can only hope that the married to a Thai will not be fiddled with, and if so doubling the dosh requirement puts me right back at 800K anyway.

[PeaceBlondie]

Until yesterday, I was sure that the sky was not falling. I thought that too many posters were nervous Nellies, exaggerating and using the fallacious logic of slippery slopes. Then I realized that the policy of Thailand's visas had already fallen off the cliff.

[Lite Beer]

My retirement renewal comes up this week, and I think I will see if it is possible to change to a married to a Thai. Intrestingly enough, this is what I first wanted but Immigration insisted on giving me a retirement as is was easier for them in not having to interview my neighbours.

Is is possible to simply change?

While this most recent rule change does not affect me personally, I am concerned by the lack of grandfathering. I can only hope that the married to a Thai will not be fiddled with, and if so doubling the dosh requirement puts me right back at 800K anyway.

You will need 40,000 Baht a month INCOME. Unless of course they decide to change that again within the next few days. Who knows?

[chinthee]

My retirement renewal comes up this week, and I think I will see if it is possible to change to a married to a Thai. Intrestingly enough, this is what I first wanted but Immigration insisted on giving me a retirement as is was easier for them in not having to interview my neighbours.

Is is possible to simply change?

While this most recent rule change does not affect me personally, I am concerned by the lack of grandfathering. I can only hope that the married to a Thai will not be fiddled with, and if so doubling the dosh requirement puts me right back at 800K anyway.

You will need 40,000 Baht a month INCOME. Unless of course they decide to change that again within the next few days. Who knows?

They highly discourage marriage visas when you are 50 or over. There is a lot more scrutiny given to marriages in the past couple years and I know several people who were told outright just go for the retirement visa and don't even mess with the increasing requirements of marriage visa, checking house, interviews, maps, etc... From the attitude, they understood that they would be given a lot of headaches if they chose the marriage visa.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

I just listened to a long but interesting hearing by the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs. The new US Ambassador to Thailand was questioned. Representative Mark Kirk was also questioned. As I said before, don't expect any help from the US Embassy. A link a RealPlayer copy of the hearing is below.

http://international.edgeboss.net/real/int.../ap_8-01-07.smi

[Hollywood]

People talk about moving to Philippines etc. Having lived there for 5 years before I can say that it might be good for a man alone but for a foreign couple the infrastructure etc can not compare to what Thailand has to offer, it would be a poor choice.

Yes, infrastructure and less safety are what I was thinking about when I wrote that the Philippines wouldn't probably be a good alternative for farang couples.

Honestly I think that for guys in your situation (retired couples, both foreign) Asia hasn't much to offer and, wanting absolutely to live in cheaper places than one's homecountry, I personally would seriously consider Latin America or, if you don't mind the weather, Eastern Europe (legally ###### easy to move there and with a lot more protection and respect for your civil and human rights since most of them have entered/are entering the EU).

Even for those single guys places like Brazil and Colombia are GREAT alternatives.

Panama, Belize(great retirement perks) Brazil and Argentina....very cheap places.

[IAMSOBAD]

Not a word on the THAI MFA web site.

How does Sunbelt have this info and nobody else does???? Why hasnt Sunbelt copied and pasted this info for us all to see? Please reply Sunbelt.

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2493 ...CHECK THIS OUT.

Anyone else have this concern or question?

Edited September 2, 2007 by IAMSOBAD

[Naam]

Brazil and Argentina....very cheap places.

give me a break mate! you have no idea.

[lopburi3]

Not a word on the THAI MFA web site.

How does Sunbelt have this info and nobody else does???? Why hasnt Sunbelt copied and pasted this info for us all to see? Please reply Sunbelt.

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2493 ...CHECK THIS OUT.

Anyone else have this concern or question?

I believe Sunbelt clearly stated in OP that this is not law yet - it has not been published. MFA has nothing to do with Immigration/extensions of stay so it would never be on there website. The Immigration website is almost a year out of date for most items. From reports here of people not being able to obtain dependent extension of stay from Bangkok last week it appears to have been implemented even earlier than September 1 by some officers.

[fleming]

Not a word on the THAI MFA web site.

How does Sunbelt have this info and nobody else does???? Why hasnt Sunbelt copied and pasted this info for us all to see? Please reply Sunbelt.

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2493 ...CHECK THIS OUT.

Anyone else have this concern or question?

I second your question!

I posted messagebefore wondering if it was a bad joke or a terrible mistake... I still do not have the answer... and today isn't Fool's Day!

Let's not forget that Visa and Work permit laws and changes in the law are the bread and butter of lawyers' offices here in Thailand

Edited September 2, 2007 by fleming

[Jimjim]

Don't waste your effort writing to the Embassy. Like most Americans you don't count there as long as GWB is calling the shots. Writing to the following senators and representatives might get more accomplished. Two are democrats, one is a Republican.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown

455 Russell Senate Office Bldg.

Washington, DC 20510

Fax +1-202-228-6321

U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan

322 Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

Fax: 202-224-1193

Why would they care?

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jimjim

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Don't waste your effort writing to the Embassy. Like most Americans you don't count there as long as GWB is calling the shots. Writing to the following senators and representatives might get more accomplished. Two are democrats, one is a Republican.

The Honorable Mark Kirk

1030 Longworth HOB

Washington, D.C. 20515

Fax: 202-225-0837

U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown

455 Russell Senate Office Bldg.

Washington, DC 20510

Fax +1-202-228-6321

U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan

322 Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

Fax: 202-224-1193

Why would they care?

The two senators have taken positions to protect ordinary Americans. Brown was elected on that promise. Mark Kirk has poroblems with the current Thai government. I suspect he would be more sympathetic based on his existing position.

Brown's political carrer has been based largely on the following position. From Brown's 2006 campaign literature:

"I am also focused on combating the illegal trade practices of trading partners. These practices come in many forms. China, for example, manipulates its currency, awards unfair subsidies to attract manufacturing jobs, ignores health and safety regulations, and abuses labor and human rights."

As a congressman Brown backed his rhetoric with action. There is no reason to believe he would not continue this practice.

Like it or not a condo is an investment whether it is used as a residence or otherwise.

Senator Dorgan too has a track record of opposing unfair condions for Americans in trade relationships. From Senator Dorgan's website:

"But it hurts us — rather than helps us — when our trade negotiators have no spine. It hurts us, for instance, when we accept the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) that allows the Canadians to dump an avalanche of U.S. wheat into the U.S. market, while preventing us from selling American wheat to Canada. And it hurts us when our negotiators allow China to erect high tariffs against U.S. automobiles — at the same time that China is gearing up a major auto export industry."

While they may do absolutely nothing, they are far more likely to act than the US State Department under the control of GWB.

Edited September 2, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[TAWP]

And if a farang wants to live in Thailand long-term, then he needs to be 'thai-a-nised'. If he/she is unwilling to do this, then there is no place in Thailand for him/her.

Simon

What does that mean; I should take up drinking, smoking, watching soaps, drive like a frenchman and get a mia noi?

Yours sincearly, TAWP.

[PeaceBlondie]

And if a farang wants to live in Thailand long-term, then he needs to be 'thai-a-nised'. If he/she is unwilling to do this, then there is no place in Thailand for him/her.

Simon

What does that mean; I should take up drinking, smoking, watching soaps, drive like a frenchman and get a mia noi?

Perhaps so. Marry a Thai, make a half-Thai baby, speak Thai, eat Thai food, be Thai.