Britain won't offer a new figure on Brexit bill to unlock talks - minister

[webfact]

Britain won't offer a new figure on Brexit bill to unlock talks - minister

By Elizabeth Piper

 

European Union's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier gestures during a joint news conference with Britain's Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union David Davis (not on the picture) after the latest round of talks in Brussels, Belgium November 10, 2017. REUTERS/Eric Vidal

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain will not offer a figure or a formula for how much it believes it owes the European Union, Brexit minister David Davis said on Sunday, after the EU demanded that London spell out its approach to the final bill to unblock talks.

 

With no movement in the negotiations to unravel more than 40 years of union, Britain may miss a December deadline to move the talks to a discussion of future trade ties, which businesses say is vital for them to make investment decisions.

 

Both sides are frustrated by the lack of progress, and last week the EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, said Britain had two weeks to spell out how far it would "honour its obligations" to break the deadlock.

 

But Davis told Sky News the EU had agreed Britain would not need to offer "a number or a formula" for the financial deal when London accepted the bloc's schedule for the talks - first a discussion about the divorce and second, about future ties.

 

"In every negotiation, each side tries to control the timetable. The real deadline on this is, of course, December," Davis said, referring to the next EU summit, taking place in Brussels on Dec. 14-15, when Britain hopes the bloc will launch the next phase of the talks.

 

"(British taxpayers) would not want me to just come along and just give away billions of pounds. So we've been very, very careful, and it's taking time and we will take our time to get to the right answer."

 

Prime Minister Theresa May says she cannot offer a figure for the financial settlement until her government knows what the future relationship will be. But she also does not want to inflame Brexit campaigners who have suggested Britain walk away.

 

James Dyson, the billionaire inventor of the bagless vacuum cleaner and a Brexit supporter, said he did not blame the government for the lack of progress.

 

"The problem is with the people we are negotiating with. I think that demanding billions and billions to leave is quite outrageous, and demanding it before we've negotiated anything is outrageous," Dyson told the BBC. "So I would walk away."

 

The so-called Brexit bill is not the only difficult hurdle in the talks so far. The two sides must also reach agreement on the UK border with EU member Ireland - something that Irish officials say is still a long way off.

 

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar said he would not threaten to use a veto on the Brexit talks "at this stage", but Dublin has called on London to go beyond its promise that a "hard" border between Ireland and Northern Ireland will not return.

 

Both Britain and the EU say they are ready for a "no deal" - a message reiterated by the bloc's Barnier in the French weekly Journal du Dimanche, where he also called on Britain to detail which financial commitments it would honour.

 

"Theresa May has committed to paying the contributions of 2019 and 2020, as well as other commitments, without specifying which ones," Barnier told Journal du Dimanche.

 

"The European taxpayer should not pay the price of a decision made ... by the United Kingdom."

 

(reporting by Elizabeth Piper in London and by Sybille de La Hamaide in Paris, editing by Larry King and Gareth Jones)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-11-13

[allane]

The British are walking around the clubhouse, saying to all the other members "We're leaving....,  ...but not until you give us a gilt-edged invitation to come back in."  I think they are still under the delusion that the other members are going to fall on bended knee to beg them to stay.

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, allane said:

The British are walking around the clubhouse, saying to all the other members "We're leaving....,  ...but not until you give us a gilt-edged invitation to come back in."  I think they are still under the delusion that the other members are going to fall on bended knee to beg them to stay.

The British are definately leaving and we don't want to stay, and after we're gone many other members will not be able to pay their new higher subscriptions, so they will be leaving too, adieu EU.

[smedly]

3 hours ago, allane said:

The British are walking around the clubhouse, saying to all the other members "We're leaving....,  ...but not until you give us a gilt-edged invitation to come back in."  I think they are still under the delusion that the other members are going to fall on bended knee to beg them to stay.

what on earth are you talking about lol

 

The EU are demanding this money on one hand but refuse to say how much and how they calculate it, does anyone else see the stupidity here, they are also demanding a solution to the Irish UK border when no such solution can be made until trade talks are completed - more stupidity

 

There is now only one option left for the UK and that is to walk away, too much time being wasted trying to get past this stupidity and nonsense 

[terryw]

The only time the EU attempted to itemise their financial demands, it was discredited by UK lawyers during a presentation to Barnier and co.

The EU do not seem to understand that you do not buy something until you know what is being offered.

[Andrew65]

3 hours ago, allane said:

The British are walking around the clubhouse, saying to all the other members "We're leaving....,  ...but not until you give us a gilt-edged invitation to come back in."  I think they are still under the delusion that the other members are going to fall on bended knee to beg them to stay.

47 years ago they told us that all that the EEC would only ever be was a FTA with no loss of sovereignty.

 

That's before they took us in without a referendum.

 

The EU now has:

28 members (instead of 12? when UK & Ireland joined, many of them p1ss-poor).

A central bank

A single currency

A national anthem

3 unelected presidents

Border-free travel, including for anyone from around the World that Frau Merckel invited. (No, they're not all from war-zones).

1200km of border fences to keep the aforementioned people out of certain nation states.

Bankrupt member states being bailed out by others, which was against the founding principles of the Euro currency.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Andrew65

[rockingrobin]

53 minutes ago, smedly said:

what on earth are you talking about lol

 

The EU are demanding this money on one hand but refuse to say how much and how they calculate it, does anyone else see the stupidity here, they are also demanding a solution to the Irish UK border when no such solution can be made until trade talks are completed - more stupidity

 

There is now only one option left for the UK and that is to walk away, too much time being wasted trying to get past this stupidity and nonsense 

The irish border cannot be addressed as part of the trade talks, it would result in other third countries asking for similiar treatment under the MFN clause. This scenario would apply equally to the EU and any other trade deals the UK make.

 

As for DD statement on the financial commitments , it is just a confirmation on what the UK and EU agreed at the start of the talks. It seems obvious to me that what is going to happen , the UK will confirm the details of  financial commitments they are willing to undertake , but will present no actual figure to the public as a victory

[Andrew65]

Part of the problem as I see it is that the UK is being asked to pay £XX billion without this being contingent upon any future trade deal, good, or bad, or none at all

[whatsupdoc]

15 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The irish border cannot be addressed as part of the trade talks, it would result in other third countries asking for similiar treatment under the MFN clause. This scenario would apply equally to the EU and any other trade deals the UK make.

 

As for DD statement on the financial commitments , it is just a confirmation on what the UK and EU agreed at the start of the talks. It seems obvious to me that what is going to happen , the UK will confirm the details of  financial commitments they are willing to undertake , but will present no actual figure to the public as a victory

The EU is not asking for a figure but astonishingly Davis says in the OP that the UK will also not give a formula. I doubt if the UK is even willing to specify what financial commitments they are willing to honor.

No wonder there isn't much progress in the 'negotiations'. Must be baffling and frustrating for the EU side but at least they will be prepared for any outcome, unlike the UK who are still trying to figure out what they actually want.

[KNJ]

"Sorry guys I am leaving the club"

 

You cannot till you pay your bar bill

 

" We have been buying you lot rounds for the past 47 years"

 

OK you cannot come back in for a drink if you leave

 

"Might we remind you that we paid for the club to be built"

 

OK pay for a new extension before you leave and we might let you in

 

"When and how often can I do that?"

 

It is secret, we won't discuss that until you agree to the new extension and  pension for the barmen

 

"What the barmen who took the job without consulting with us?"

 

Also we want to use your fishing lake to catch a meal or two

 

"Sure but not within 200 miles of our home"

 

Also those expensive properties we have we want you to pay so we can buy new ones nearer our homes

 

"What the ones you chose to rent "

 

Yes

 

"Please take them, and while you are about it, your boats out of our waters, your atomic waste back, your unelected officials, your friends who never buy but drink at the bar, your outrageous expenses as employees and pay for the bar bill yourselves------- Good night, and turn off the light on the way out because you cannot afford the electricity"

 

 

[dunroaming]

4 hours ago, smedly said:

what on earth are you talking about lol

 

The EU are demanding this money on one hand but refuse to say how much and how they calculate it, does anyone else see the stupidity here, they are also demanding a solution to the Irish UK border when no such solution can be made until trade talks are completed - more stupidity

 

There is now only one option left for the UK and that is to walk away, too much time being wasted trying to get past this stupidity and nonsense 

OK let's try and look where we are today.  The EU have said that they need a proposal from the UK on the three issues that are holding up progress.  The main one and the actual elephant in the room is this.  It is not the actual amount of money but the formula to work out the amount of money.  That is the basis for working out the bill.  As it says above, Davis has said he is not going to offer a figure OR formula on how much the UK feels it owes to the EU.  So just for clarity.  The EU have asked the UK to come up with a formula they will accept to then work out the correct amount of money to pay.  Davis says he will not give that.  Without that formula the talks cannot progress so it is Davis and May preventing progress and not the EU.

 

The Irish border issue is tricky because the UK have pledged to not do anything to jeopardise the Northern Irish Treaty.  For that to happen we need to keep the customs agreement at least, although to properly protect it the UK needs to remain within the single market.  The UK have said that is not going to happen which puts them between a rock and a hard place.  

 

There must be more to this because this latest statement from Davis makes no sense at all.  At the moment I cannot see any positive outcome from this Brexit.  It is going to cost us an enormous amount of money and change very little, or we walk away and the British economy goes into meltdown.  It is time this government stopped faffing about and admitted that they have screwed everything up! Then maybe, just maybe, we can start to sort this mess out.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, terryw said:

The only time the EU attempted to itemise their financial demands, it was discredited by UK lawyers during a presentation to Barnier and co.

The EU do not seem to understand that you do not buy something until you know what is being offered.

 

It is the same as being offered "a pig in a poke".

 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-pig-in-a-poke.html

 

 

[smedly]

4 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

OK let's try and look where we are today.  The EU have said that they need a proposal from the UK on the three issues that are holding up progress.  The main one and the actual elephant in the room is this.  It is not the actual amount of money but the formula to work out the amount of money.  That is the basis for working out the bill.  As it says above, Davis has said he is not going to offer a figure OR formula on how much the UK feels it owes to the EU.  So just for clarity.  The EU have asked the UK to come up with a formula they will accept to then work out the correct amount of money to pay.  Davis says he will not give that.  Without that formula the talks cannot progress so it is Davis and May preventing progress and not the EU.

 

The Irish border issue is tricky because the UK have pledged to not do anything to jeopardise the Northern Irish Treaty.  For that to happen we need to keep the customs agreement at least, although to properly protect it the UK needs to remain within the single market.  The UK have said that is not going to happen which puts them between a rock and a hard place.  

 

There must be more to this because this latest statement from Davis makes no sense at all.  At the moment I cannot see any positive outcome from this Brexit.  It is going to cost us an enormous amount of money and change very little, or we walk away and the British economy goes into meltdown.  It is time this government stopped faffing about and admitted that they have screwed everything up! Then maybe, just maybe, we can start to sort this mess out.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, there is no treaty - I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and quite frankly neither do you. It is the EU that are preventing/blocking any sort of arrangement with it's border with the UK

 

The Financial bill is what the EU are demanding and yet they are unwilling to detail what the demand is and how they calculate it

 

It was the EU/Germany that came up with the ridiculous preconditions the UK had no choice but to run with it, but since it is going nowhere and wasting time the UK will have to move forward either way - that will happen in January

 

Perhaps at some future date the EU will come back to the table to talk trade but is of course if the EU still exists long enough 

 

 

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

The British are definately leaving and we don't want to stay, and after we're gone many other members will not be able to pay their new higher subscriptions, so they will be leaving too, adieu EU.

Typical Brexiter outlook. How nice. 

[Grouse]

Is it an open day for the cerebrally challenged today?

 

Some of the comments are so silly. And all those licks!

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, smedly said:

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, there is no treaty - I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and quite frankly neither do you. It is the EU that are preventing/blocking any sort of arrangement with it's border with the UK

 

The Financial bill is what the EU are demanding and yet they are unwilling to detail what the demand is and how they calculate it

 

It was the EU/Germany that came up with the ridiculous preconditions the UK had no choice but to run with it, but since it is going nowhere and wasting time the UK will have to move forward either way - that will happen in January

 

Perhaps at some future date the EU will come back to the table to talk trade but is of course if the EU still exists long enough 

 

 

You want a hard border between Northern and Southern Ireland? What idiocy!

[rockingrobin]

4 minutes ago, smedly said:

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, there is no treaty - I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and quite frankly neither do you. It is the EU that are preventing/blocking any sort of arrangement with it's border with the UK

 

The Financial bill is what the EU are demanding and yet they are unwilling to detail what the demand is and how they calculate it

 

It was the EU/Germany that came up with the ridiculous preconditions the UK had no choice but to run with it, but since it is going nowhere and wasting time the UK will have to move forward either way - that will happen in January

 

Perhaps at some future date the EU will come back to the table to talk trade but is of course if the EU still exists long enough 

 

 

The UK had the opportunity to set out the terms of the negotitions when the withdrawal notification was sent, and was advised to do so by Sir Ivan Rogers

This failure allowed the EU to seize the initiative.

It was known pre ref that there would be financial commitments to pay.  Saying the EU are not providing details as to be incorrect   otherwise how could DD go through them line by line .

With regards NI , T.May insistamce that the UK will leave the SM and CU as onewill result in the UK and NI becoming a third country and thus a border between NI and ROI. Any agreement reached either by s FTA or WTO is problematic, nor only in the timing, but also with non discrimination rules

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Typical Brexiter outlook. How nice. 

Well woopsydo, what do you expect a "Typical brexiteer" to say. There are many constructive points from both sides of the debating table here. But there are many arrogant responses mainly coming from the remaining side, and dare I say many responses from our cousins in Europe which are damnright rude and also what appears to be gloating over our failure to see eye to eye with each other. You have got back to your old ways of calling brexiteers stupid (and other derogative terminology) because they see things different to you, you may think you're correct all the time, but you're not.

I have also looked up what an arrogant, ignorant and self centered person is who thinks he is better than everyone else, and it came up with 'douchebag' infact here is the douchebag meaning :- an obnoxious or contemptible person, typically a man. And no names, no packdrill. ?

 

 

 

 

[smedly]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Is it an open day for the cerebrally challenged today?

 

Some of the comments are so silly. And all those licks!

and your contribution is what exactly

 

This is an adult forum

[smedly]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You want a hard border between Northern and Southern Ireland? What idiocy!

it is the EU that are blocking any arrangement as it is and EU border - soon to become an EU border with a foreign country - The "UNITED" Kingdom

Edited November 13, 2017 by smedly

[JAG]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Is it an open day for the cerebrally challenged today?

 

Some of the comments are so silly. And all those licks!

So you are still an arrogant four letter word then "Grouse", with nothing but open contempt for those who do not share your views. 

 

Now run along and cry to the mods because one of the "cerebrally challenged" has said something rude about you....

Edited November 13, 2017 by JAG

[smedly]

14 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The UK had the opportunity to set out the terms of the negotitions when the withdrawal notification was sent, and was advised to do so by Sir Ivan Rogers

This failure allowed the EU to seize the initiative.

It was known pre ref that there would be financial commitments to pay.  Saying the EU are not providing details as to be incorrect   otherwise how could DD go through them line by line .

With regards NI , T.May insistamce that the UK will leave the SM and CU as onewill result in the UK and NI becoming a third country and thus a border between NI and ROI. Any agreement reached either by s FTA or WTO is problematic, nor only in the timing, but also with non discrimination rules

The UK will leave the SM and CU - that is a given and it is impossible for any other outcome, but what is negociated in its place will be similar in function but perhaps not in name

[nasanews]

You Brit suckers have only one chance to re-vote otherwise you are going down real bad.

[NeoDinosaw]

36 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Is it an open day for the cerebrally challenged today?

 

Some of the comments are so silly. And all those licks!

who's licking what ?

[Bluespunk]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

"(British taxpayers) would not want me to just come along and just give away billions of pounds. So we've been very, very careful, and it's taking time and we will take our time to get to the right answer."

BS, you're making it up as you go along.

 

Utterly clueless and inept.

 

Just like the rest of may's cabinet.

 

 

[Grouse]

? no further questions; I rest my case!

[DPKANKAN]

9 hours ago, allane said:

The British are walking around the clubhouse, saying to all the other members "We're leaving....,  ...but not until you give us a gilt-edged invitation to come back in."  I think they are still under the delusion that the other members are going to fall on bended knee to beg them to stay.

Rubbish. The E U negotiarors are puffing up their chest trying to look good to all the other sheep members. They know it is impossible to agree a financial package until the deal for the business aspects are settled. They are scared **itless if they look weak many more countries will follow. 

The ones with the main vested interests like Germany and France are pulling the strings.

[Grouse]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

Well woopsydo, what do you expect a "Typical brexiteer" to say. There are many constructive points from both sides of the debating table here. But there are many arrogant responses mainly coming from the remaining side, and dare I say many responses from our cousins in Europe which are damnright rude and also what appears to be gloating over our failure to see eye to eye with each other. You have got back to your old ways of calling brexiteers stupid (and other derogative terminology) because they see things different to you, you may think you're correct all the time, but you're not.

I have also looked up what an arrogant, ignorant and self centered person is who thinks he is better than everyone else, and it came up with 'douchebag' infact here is the douchebag meaning :- an obnoxious or contemptible person, typically a man. And no names, no packdrill. ?

 

 

 

 

Surprised at you reverting to American gutter language! But never mind, I'm made of sterner stuff ?

 

BTW, I don't claim to be correct all of the time; just most of the time ?

[Grouse]

32 minutes ago, smedly said:

and your contribution is what exactly

 

This is an adult forum

It seems not

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, DPKANKAN said:

Rubbish. The E U negotiarors are puffing up their chest trying to look good to all the other sheep members. They know it is impossible to agree a financial package until the deal for the business aspects are settled. They are scared **itless if they look weak many more countries will follow. 

The ones with the main vested interests like Germany and France are pulling the strings.

And we should be pulling the strings. But with this government? I doubt it.

 

Anyway, the 1922 mafia will be out with the long knives soon!