Monk Chat

[sabaijai]

Monk Chat

By Brad Crouch

IN an intriguing land of golden temples and mythical serpents there is much to grab your attention, but one sign stood out – 'Monk Chat'.

The fact there was a smiling Buddhist monk standing next to it ready to chat made perfect sense, but it was still just a little ... odd.

The place was Chiang Mai in northern Thailand, the old capital of the Lanna Kingdom founded in the 13th century (Lanna means "land of a million rice fields").

The original old city was encircled by a brick wall several metres thick, plus a broad moat – an indication of earlier, bloodthirsty days.

Remnants of the walls – including several grand ancient gates – still stand, as does the moat, although most of the wall has been raided for building material.

Inside the wall, modern life dominates, but some old buildings – including a range of temples – remain intact.

Among these ancient temples Wat Chedi Luang is a standout.

It is simply huge, with stone elephants protruding midway up, which makes you wonder at the sophisticated building and artistic skills of the people who built it in the 14th century. Parts of it are being restored and around it monks go about their business with shy smiles for the occasional visitor.

It was here that the sign 'Monk Chat' caught my attention. It was simply an invitation to chat to a monk about any aspect of Buddhism that takes your fancy – for instance, what do monks actually do?

Mr Monk and I had a brief chat as mutual smiles bridged the gap between culture, race, religion and language; not sure if I'll take up Buddhism, but you never know if you don't ask.

Outside the walled old town, Chiang Mai is a boutique city of some 250,000 people.

In contrast to Thailand's glorious beach resorts and the bustling mega city of Bangkok, it has its own distinct identity complete with regional cuisine.

Walk, take a taxi or tuk-tuk, and soak up the vibrancy of a city where enticing food stalls, markets and shops seem to sprout on footpaths of their own accord.

Shoppers will revel in its markets, especially the night markets where bargains abound as you walk among a slightly bewildering mix of stalls selling everything from designer shirts to silverware. As the gateway to the north, Chiang Mai is close to the hill tribes of the region such as the Hmong and Karen tribes with their fascinating cultures.

For instance, the women of the Karen Padaung villages wear multiple brass rings around their necks, arms and legs as a symbol of beauty and status. The neck rings start when the girls are about fi ve and, as additional rings are added, their necks stretch, hence the nickname of 'long necks'. To the outsider the practice may seem strange, but surely it is no stranger than Australian women poking holes in their earlobes, walking in high heels or painting their lips and eyes. Visits to hill-tribe villages can range from afternoon trips to extended rafting and elephant treks, depending on your preferences.

Chiang Mai is a city of temples, with dozens of ornate and ancient temples scattered through the district. However, one stands out – Wat Phra That Doi Suthep. A local saying goes that you haven't been to Chiang Mai unless you have been to Doi Suthep, and it is easy to see why.

Built in 1383, legend has it that King Kuena let a white elephant roam free carrying relics of Buddha himself. The elephant dropped dead on the mountain overlooking the town, and that's where the temple was built. From the car park some 306 steps lead to the temple – or you can take the cable car. The stairs are flanked by two giant nagas, mythical huge serpents whose bodies form the balustrade of the stairway to nirvana.

At the top, the temple shines with an ethereal light from its shimmering covering of gold leaf and solid gold spire. Four golden parasols fl ank the building housing the holy Buddha relics.

In the marble-tiled courtyard around it, pilgrims light joss sticks and leave offerings to dozens of Buddha figures while monks in adjacent temples give visitors blessings.

The complex is impressive and magnifi cent, yet carries a measure of serenity despite the constant flow of visitors.

news.com.au

[sbk]

Have you heard of this yourself, sabaijai? Just curious if the monk is chatting in English or Thai?

My husband was a monk for a short while and I got his short-term impressions but it would be interesting to hear from a long-term one.

[tycann]

I saw the same thing in Phitsanulok last week. It was odd because the sign was in English, though I don't think any of the monks spoke English.

SBK, if you wanna talk to a long-term monk, and are in BKK, just stop by Wat Mahathat and sit in the courtyard near the library. It's almost certain that a monk will stop to chat. I can't even sit there and eat my sticky rice without getting approached by a number of them. If you're lucky Phra Mahakraiwi will be around (if not, he's probably in the MCU bookstore in the temple). He loves speaking English and is just about the nicest guy you could ever meet. I always see him giving free tours around the area to farang tourists. If that fails just head into the Grad School (next to the library) and sit around on the third floor. Tons of chatty monks there. If you see me (I'm the white guy) I'll be happy to introduce you around.

Edit: Woops, sbk just saw that you are in Koh Phangan.

Edited January 17, 2007 by tycann

[sbk]

I am a woman, would it make a difference?

[khaojao]

the monks in wat chedi luang speak english...not fluently but well enough.

it's their way of training up the monks'/novices' standard of english

[sabaijai]

Have you heard of this yourself, sabaijai? Just curious if the monk is chatting in English or Thai?

My husband was a monk for a short while and I got his short-term impressions but it would be interesting to hear from a long-term one.

I've been to Monk Chat at Wat Suandok several times. It doesn't matter what gender the visitor is, they welcome everyone. Most of the 'monks' are actually samaneras or novices, but there's usually a monk or two around. The discussion is only as interesting as the questions the visitors ask, it's all pretty open-ended (altho I haven't been in nearly a year so there may have been changes).

There's also lots of free English-language literature on Buddhism available at the Monk Chat centre, which has expanded quite a bit since it started a few years ago.

Another program Wat Suandok runs now, out of the same centre, is an overnight meditation/intro to Buddhism course. You show up at the wat around 2pm on a Tuesday and come back the afternoon of the following day. Accoms and instruction are at another site but the transport leaves from Wat Suandok. A friend visiting me did the overnight course a few months ago and she thought it was pretty good.

[Grover]

I am a woman, would it make a difference?

Not really. But you will have to initiate the converstation, its unlikely a monk will come to you and start talking. And when you talk, there should be another person around that can understand english.

And the most important rule, don't touch the monk ! or even hand him a something (a book) directly. Just leave it on the tree or table. Apart from that, should be fine.

[leisurely]

Excuse my ignorance, but it must be acceptable for a monk to touch a woman when tying the 'string' around her wrists, or is this done by someone else?

[chownah]

Excuse my ignorance, but it must be acceptable for a monk to touch a woman when tying the 'string' around her wrists, or is this done by someone else?

My wife says that the monk at our village temple ties them but is very careful to not touch her in any way.

Chownah

[Bellatrix]

I read this from a girl's blog...

"I forgot to mention that on Friday night I went to "Monk Chat" evening at Wat Suan Dok. It is a chance for monks to practice their English and is supposed to help foreigners to understand Buddhism more. The monk that I was paired up with was hilarious! He was completely bipolar -- he would be telling me sternly that my long hair, Lonely Planet guidebook, and watch were just signs that I didn't know myself at all and was relying on capitalism and greed to find my purpose in life -- and then he would confide to me that though monks were not allowed to touch women, there was nothing stopping them from looking at them, talking about them amongst themselves, and (with a waggle of his eyebrows) imagining..."

Interesting comment from the monk, hrm.

[tycann]

Hah. Yeah its always funny when I'm talking to one of my monk buddies, and a pretty girl walks by and I catch them staring at her ass. A lot goes on behind closed temple doors here too. One prominent BKK Wat has a particular reputation for being a hotbed of homosexual behaviour.

Edited January 20, 2007 by tycann

[dukkha]

Hotbed of Homosexual Behaviour....really, and no other organised religious groups of men behave in this way?? What is the point of your comment. .?? And do you also believe that some monks engage in heterosexual behaviour? Monks are both homosexual and heterosexual. Most strive to live by the precepts, some fail....I would have thought we could discuss more about dharma than sexuality in this forum...however always a chance to exhibit homophobia whatever the thread....

[dukkha]

Incidentally, I was a guest lecturer at Wat Suan Dok Buddhist University for 4 years during which time I had the honor to teach in the English Faculty where many of my students then attended the Monk Chat program two evenings a week. A most successful program thanks to Phra Sanee and David Freyer who initiated it over 6 or more years ago. I recommend it to any tourist or ex-pat who may wish to understand Thai Buddhism from the perspective of either the ordained monk or the novice ( nern ) who is usually under the statutory age of 20 requisite for ordination , although some men remain novices and are only obligated to follow a lesser number of the Sangha Precepts whilst living in the Temple...Most of the monks who engage in the program are English Major students completing their Bachelor degree which is a four year course, after which they serve one year of an internship, then are free to either disrobe or to remain within the monkhood

[tycann]

Hotbed of Homosexual Behaviour....really, and no other organised religious groups of men behave in this way?? What is the point of your comment. .?? And do you also believe that some monks engage in heterosexual behaviour? Monks are both homosexual and heterosexual. Most strive to live by the precepts, some fail....I would have thought we could discuss more about dharma than sexuality in this forum...however always a chance to exhibit homophobia whatever the thread....

Dukkha, my apologies if I offended you in some way. I was just sharing some gossip, thought it was interesting that there is one temple in particular that has a reputation for such activity... and this is in NO way a judgement about homosexuality, nor an instance of homophobia. Had I heard that a particular temple had a reputation for sex between monks and mae chees, for example, I would have posted as such. I scoff at the fact that these monks are engaging in sexual behaviour at all, whether it be of the homo- or hetero- kind. I was simply trying to show that our idea of the pious, celibate monk is not always realistic. As one is free to disrobe in Thailand at any time, any monk participating in a so-called 'grave offence', sex of any kind included, should not remain in the Order.

And of course clergy members of other denominations exhibit various sexualities, and break their vows of celibacy. My post was not intended to compare the Sangha to any other religious group. It was intended as a response to the surprise Bellatrix noted at the suggestive comments she had heard a monk making.

Edited January 26, 2007 by tycann

[sbk]

Incidentally, I was a guest lecturer at Wat Suan Dok Buddhist University for 4 years during which time I had the honor to teach in the English Faculty where many of my students then attended the Monk Chat program two evenings a week. A most successful program thanks to Phra Sanee and David Freyer who initiated it over 6 or more years ago. I recommend it to any tourist or ex-pat who may wish to understand Thai Buddhism from the perspective of either the ordained monk or the novice ( nern ) who is usually under the statutory age of 20 requisite for ordination , although some men remain novices and are only obligated to follow a lesser number of the Sangha Precepts whilst living in the Temple...Most of the monks who engage in the program are English Major students completing their Bachelor degree which is a four year course, after which they serve one year of an internship, then are free to either disrobe or to remain within the monkhood

dukkha, I would be interested in hearing more about the Buddhist University, if you have a chance. My husband's nephew is talking about this when he grows up and I wonder what chance he has to get in, what requirements there are etc. He is a pretty serious kid, so he may very well mean it and if it reallly is his dream I would hope that my husband and I could help him realize it.

If you prefer to start another topic to discuss that and leave this one to a discussion of monk chat, that would be fine too

[tycann]

Sbk, perhaps the two most prestigious Buddhist Universities in Thailand are both in Bangkok-- Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University (MCU) in Wat Mahathat, and Mahamakut University in Wat Bowoniwet.

I can only speak personally about MCU, the university with which I am affiliated. Once only for monks, it is now open to members of the laity as well. It's most well known faculty is, of course, Buddhist Studies, though it offers programs in a number of subjects, primarily in the humanities. It's faculty is composed mostly of monks, all of whom are quite well respected. All are proficient in Pali, if that is of interest to your nephew. It also employs a few world-renown scholars, namely one particular British scholar who has the distinction of having published the most Pali Text Society translations of any living person. Additionally, it occasionally attracts well known guest speakers. For the last three days, Richard Gombrich, THE household name in Buddhist Studies (if there is such a thing), Professor Emeritus from Oxford, has delivered a series of lectures there.

[ourmanflint]

I saw the monk chat sign at Wat Chedi Luang last week, but I couldn't find anyone to chat with...

Which was a shame!

[dukkha]

SBK...what an honor to be addressed by such a high profile Mod I tried to PM but could not see a button...essentially it seems to me that Buddhist Universities in Thailand cater for men who come from a socio-economic background which excludes them from the mainstream of Tertiary Education...these men become monks in order to gain a first and sometimes second degree, few remain in the Sangha, most disrobe and pursue careers like any other University graduate. My students were from Lao, Thailand, Burma, Bangladesh and Cambodia. Some had been in Temples for many years prior to attending their first year of University. I guess your nephew approaches the University and finds out the requirements. I

[sabaijai]

I saw the monk chat sign at Wat Chedi Luang last week, but I couldn't find anyone to chat with...

Which was a shame!

Try Wat Suandok, where it´s a safer bet there will be monks-novices turning up at the appointed hour. Not sure the Wat Chedi Luang branch has really taken off (yet).

[sbk]

SBK...what an honor to be addressed by such a high profile Mod I tried to PM but could not see a button...essentially it seems to me that Buddhist Universities in Thailand cater for men who come from a socio-economic background which excludes them from the mainstream of Tertiary Education...these men become monks in order to gain a first and sometimes second degree, few remain in the Sangha, most disrobe and pursue careers like any other University graduate. My students were from Lao, Thailand, Burma, Bangladesh and Cambodia. Some had been in Temples for many years prior to attending their first year of University. I guess your nephew approaches the University and finds out the requirements. I

He is still young - only 13--, but, unusually, it does seem to be a serious dream. He does not come from a disadvantaged background so it isn't that he is looking for a way to attend Uni.

I will have a talk with him next time I see him and see if he is still serious about it, is there something he should be doing now in order to get in?

[dukkha]

SBK, as your nephew is still a teenager it is somewhat far off regarding his wishes, but interestingly enough, in the context of this discussion with you, I wished, at age 14, to enter the Catholic Priesthood, which my parents did not allow until I turned 16. At that point they relented and I entered an order of Catholic Priests in Australia and stayed for 5 years, which included completing my secondary studies, being a novice for one year, then going on to the major seminary for another two years before I knew it was not going to be the life for me. He is extremely young to be considering the monastic life but then again, as I said, I was doing the same at 14, and yes I was a serious and pious little p$%^&&k, and was determined to devote my life to god as a religious...thankfully I saw the light so to speak...there is no requirement for boys to enter the Sangha as novices, which they remain till aged 20 when they are ordained as monks..in many parts of Thailand one sees boys as young as 10 in the saffron robes, they are attending primary school within a Temple, as they usually cannot afford an education outside of the Temple...some may even be as young as 6 years old I am told..the robes are almost like a kind of school uniform with a religious indicator...It would probably be best that he speaks with the Abbott of his local Temple or at least it is discussed with family members....or other long term monks...he may even grow out of the idea at some point....but as all know on this thread, thai young men usually spend some part of their life as a monk, be it short term or long term, depending on the individual...Dukkha

[sbk]

Thank you for your story dukkha, I have to say, when I heard this was his dream I was a bit stunned. But, he is a serious little guy (sounds like you!) and quite stubborn as well (that is a family trait I might add ). I don't want to try and talk him out of it, neither does his family, but would like to see him go as far as possible if that is really his dream. My husband's uncle was the former abbot of our local temple so he might be a good person to talk to my nephew. Not sure of his schooling, but assume it was fairly high otherwise he wouldn't have been made abbot, right?

[dukkha]

SBK, am enjoying our interchange...a delight for me as I have no wimmen friends in LOS...one of the compromises I have had to endure as a gay man living in Thailand, unlike the myriad of wimmen friends I had in Australia...yes, to become an Abott certainly indicates that this man has chosen his vocation with some level of insight...he sounds the best person for you to have contact with in terms of your nephew considering following a similar path...yes, I was a serious young lad but I think sublimanlly it was an out from an unhappy life with my family, although they never for one moment pushed me in the direction of entering the priesthood, quite the contrary...I was very happy for those 5 years until I became aware of my sexuality, when I realised that I was in fact a gay man...it was about belonging to a community, an alternative to the nuclear family, and also the influence of the church in the context of the parish church...I have no regrets as I received a worthwhile education which probably stood me in good stead in my latter years and also heightened my understanding of compassion and mortality...enuff before I begin to sound evangelsitic...those monks who taught me for those 5 years were men who left an indelible impression on me all those years ago..fortunately I was never interfered with sexually by any of them...even now, at 62 years of age I regularly consider the possibilty of being ordained as a Thai monk in order to fully understand the cultural implications of being an ex-pat living in Thailand...your nephew sounds an interesting lad at this point of his life, one who needs to have the ear of people with wisdom and compassion...many thanks for your intelligent replies and look forward to, maybe, some further communciation from your good self...erstwhile, ensure that he is aware of the fact that he is loved, cared for, and important...I had the support of my parents yet my mother was always waiting for the phone call to tell her that I was coming home...her words to me after 5 years of monastic living were ;" Lloyd we are not surprised that you want to come home as you always liked life too much.......' A vocation, a calling, can be transitory...hope some of my ravings SBK are of some assistance...you stike me as someone of intelligence and hence am sure you will deal with this situation with care and love... Dukkha

[gburns57au]

I am amazed.....I have just read the OP's post....not here but in todays Sunday Times....the sunday rag for Perth Oz.....

[lannarebirth]

I am amazed.....I have just read the OP's post....not here but in todays Sunday Times....the sunday rag for Perth Oz.....

The OP was posting an article he found from an Australian news source. He attached a link.

[khaojao]

I saw the monk chat sign at Wat Chedi Luang last week, but I couldn't find anyone to chat with...

Which was a shame!

it's exam week that's why.

[gburns57au]

I am amazed.....I have just read the OP's post....not here but in todays Sunday Times....the sunday rag for Perth Oz.....

The OP was posting an article he found from an Australian news source. He attached a link.

Yes I know that....I am amazed that it was on here over a week before it was in our papers.