Lpg/ngv conversion

[Bkk2061]

How many miles / years would you need to be doing to make this worthwhile on say :

 

2.5  litre Honda  acccord

 

3.2 litre Ford everest

 

BMW 535 or 735 etc 

 

I am just curious whether it would be beneficial or not because I don't envisage doing huge amounts of miles but if it the fuel costs half as much it might break even over a few years

 

Also, is there any power disadvantages to consider? 

[canthai55]

4 cylinder engine, multi point LPG, manufactured in Italy, 30,000 baht installed.

Cuts my cost per km in half.

So figure km per year you drive, and arrive at a break even point.

[Bkk2061]

60k worth of fuel would break even then.... And fuel after that would be "half price".... 

 

Seems to be a good idea, would you risk doing it to a brand new vehicle and void the warranty immediately or buy one that's at the end of the warranty period and then convert it? 

[canthai55]

 

Would not want to risk with a new vehicle. But I buy all my cars and trucks here second hand. Newish. Saves getting shafted with the initial depreciation hit, much greater selection at a greatly reduced price, and much more value for the money. My Teana is not made anymore as now all are 4 cylinder CVT. Mine V6 and conventional slushbox.  Plus I been around cars all my life, and know what to look for. Those with next to no knowledge are the ones waving the 'Buy New' banner.

[JAS21]

Hopefully you wouldn't try and change a diesel to LPG ... well you can actually use about 10% LPG

[Bkk2061]

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

 

Would not want to risk with a new vehicle. But I buy all my cars and trucks here second hand. Newish. Saves getting shafted with the initial depreciation hit, much greater selection at a greatly reduced price, and much more value for the money. My Teana is not made anymore as now all are 4 cylinder CVT. Mine V6 and conventional slushbox.  Plus I been around cars all my life, and know what to look for. Those with next to no knowledge are the ones waving the 'Buy New' banner.

I understand, I'm not a  novice  when it comes to buying cars, I've owned dozens in the past ( just not  in Thailand where I can't read the language and the laws etc  ) although I have owned a wide variety of large motorcycles in Thailand 

 

Is also very tempting to get something cool that drinks a lot of fuel like a thirsty big v8 range rover,  large engine BMW or Mercedes AMG etc

 

(the kind of vehicle that most people would love to own except  the fuel costs would bankrupt them) 

 

 

[Bkk2061]

8 hours ago, JAS21 said:

Hopefully you wouldn't try and change a diesel to LPG ... well you can actually use about 10% LPG

A fully loaded bmw  or a Merc would probably be ideal for LPG, the kind of car you would be happy to keep for a while... 

 

Decisions, decisions... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[canthai55]

Hopefully you wouldn't try and change a diesel to LPG ... well you can actually use about 10% LPG

Shop I use does diesel CNG conversions on pickups. Same as the LPG conversions dual fuel at the flick of a switch. 100% one or the other.

[JAS21]

55 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Shop I use does diesel CNG conversions on pickups. Same as the LPG conversions dual fuel at the flick of a switch. 100% one or the other.

That is something new to me ...guess I need read up on this then ... I met a guy in New Zealand in 2008 who had added LPG to his vehicle but he said only about 10%.

 

My understanding is that injection at this rate is now the norm and improves the combustion resulting in more torque and smoother running.

 

I would be appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of any article relating to full LPG on a diesel ... I don't recall seeing any diesel LPG pickups here ...I often wondered about the huge lorries with their, what I think are, LPG tanks though ...

[JAS21]

2 hours ago, Bkk2061 said:

A fully loaded bmw  or a Merc would probably be ideal for LPG, the kind of car you would be happy to keep for a while... 

 

Decisions, decisions... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A friend has an LPG W201 ... the dark blue colour ... has had it resprayed ... it looks fantastic and runs really well.

 

I have offered to buy it many times ...

 

Could be a good decision to get something like that...

[Bkk2061]

5 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

A friend has an LPG W201 ... the dark blue colour ... has had it resprayed ... it looks fantastic and runs really well.

 

I have offered to buy it many times ...

 

Could be a good decission to get something like that...

They look cool when done up nicely... But a bit too old for my liking at the moment.... I'd rather something with airbags and a bit more safety for a family car.... On Thai roads

 

 

[canthai55]

2 hours ago, JAS21 said:

I often wondered about the huge lorries with their, what I think are, LPG tanks though ...

They run CNG

[canthai55]

2 hours ago, JAS21 said:

 I don't recall seeing any diesel LPG pickups here

Never saw one myself, here or in the West. Google search shows this ...

http://www.ozonlpg.com/diesellpg.html

[JAS21]

23 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Never saw one myself, here or in the West. Google search shows this ...

http://www.ozonlpg.com/diesellpg.html

Yes ... that is LPG in addition to diesel fuel, is it not? ... if you want 100% LPG in a diesel engine my understanding is that you need to change it to spark ignition and reduce the compression ratio ... then of course it won't ever run on diesel again ...

[laochef]

About 10 y ago, the Toyota dealer in Sri Racha was selling new pickups, with or without LPG, charging 45 K baht extra, with LPG.

[Autonuaq]

The answer you can find in may serious log site answering you question

 

Now lpg is 12 thb and the extra fuel consumption is between the 3 and 5%.

About the same fueling time as petrol.

Tank is 60 liter so under normal filling you have 48 liter(=80%)

I do about 560 to 580 km on one tank

And city traffic I do about 420 to 480 km.

This about the same a petrol and about the same or equal power

LPG when is escapes it goes to the ground.

You are not allowed to park everywhere in parking areas 

 

Tank is smaller then NGV tank.

The power is less in the engine.

Filling time is longer filling queue is longer.

Same car on one tank about 160 to 200 km.

Many times not able to get the tank filled to the maximum due to that the filling station cuts of manually or simple they have not enough pressure. 

So the tank radius reduced dymatically.

Same as lpg not allowed to park everywhere.

Ngv goes up when it is released.

 

 

One car two alternate systems. Originally ngv converted to lpg

Lpg is the winner.

Not only cheaper per liter also better performance and longer distance to cover.

 

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

I would suggest LPG is the better option. The CNG tank is equivalent to putting a 100 kg passenger in the back of the car. Cylinder head temperatures are also considerably higher with CNG, with implications for engine life. Also factor in the cost of compulsory yearly inspection of the CNG tank.

The OP needs to be doing at least 20,000 km a year to get the capital cost of the conversion paid back in 2-3 years.

IMHO it's only worth doing for bigger engines in the 2 - 4 litre range. Doing it with a 1.5 litre engine is impractical, because engines that size don't drink much fuel anyway.

[canthai55]

13 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Doing it with a 1.5 litre engine is impractical, because engines that size don't drink much fuel anyway.

My 1600 NV is on LPG since new. I am second owner. Cost per km on LPG 50% cost of 95 - which manufacturer requires.

Makes it very practical in my eyes.

200K - no issues.

[Lacessit]

40 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

My 1600 NV is on LPG since new. I am second owner. Cost per km on LPG 50% cost of 95 - which manufacturer requires.

Makes it very practical in my eyes.

200K - no issues.

Of course it's practical for you, because you did not pay the initial capital cost of the LPG conversion.

If "from new" means it is dedicated LPG, the manufacturer has modified valve seats etc. to cope with the higher cylinder head temperatures. Again, as the second owner you have not paid any premium the first owner has.

The thread is about LPG conversion, no?

[canthai55]

Valve seats - what is it 1970 ? All cars have had hardened seats since unleaded fuel made a debut.

And at 30K for the conversion, I have already saved that amount and much more since I bought it.

What part of cost per km 50% of gasoline escaped you ?

And cylinder head temps - recommended to go 2 heat ranges colder on spark plugs. Problem solved.

I know on not one manufacturer who sells new cars that run on LPG. This car was converted - when new by the original owner - to run dual fuel because of the fuel cost savings.

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Valve seats - what is it 1970 ? All cars have had hardened seats since unleaded fuel made a debut.

And at 30K for the conversion, I have already saved that amount and much more since I bought it.

What part of cost per km 50% of gasoline escaped you ?

And cylinder head temps - recommended to go 2 heat ranges colder on spark plugs. Problem solved.

I know on not one manufacturer who sells new cars that run on LPG. This car was converted - when new by the original owner - to run dual fuel because of the fuel cost savings.

Your post was ambiguous because you did not specify whether it was you or the original owner who did the conversion. As I said before, you have not incurred the capital cost of the conversion, so your cost savings are pure gravy.

The cost per km is not 50% of gasoline. LPG consumption is 10 - 15% higher than gasoline. I have the figures to prove it on the two cars I had equipped with LPG in Australia. Then you have to add in the cost of regular inspection of the LPG system, unless you like playing Russian roulette with potential leaks.

Colder spark plugs? Cylinder head temperature is a function of the fuel composition and oxygen present. You can't make a fuel burn colder unless combustion is incomplete, which tends to defeat the purpose of the exercise. Colder spark plugs only preserve the spark plug, nothing else.

CNG burns hottest, mainly methane. LPG is next, propane and butane. Gasoline is lowest, hexane upwards. The cooler burning temperature of gasoline is because it requires the most energy to convert it from a liquid to a gas in the combustion space. It's called latent heat of vaporisation.

Now excuse me while I retrieve my chemistry degree from the rubbish bin - I didn't think I'd need it again.

[canthai55]

My cost to run LPG is 50% of running gasoline. Cost per KM.

I am not in Aus - the USA of Asia IM not so HO. What you do there ...

Believe - not Believe. Means nothing to me. I know what it costs, records kept since I bought it.

So you can put your 'Facts' in the same place you put your 'Degree' 555

 

[canthai55]

LPG here is aprox 12 baht per litre

Gasohol 95 is aprox 28 baht per litre

Even tho LPG is 10-15% less energy, this is how my cost per km on LPG is half what it is on 95

Any other hand holding required - let me know

http://www.eppo.go.th/index.php/en/

[Lacessit]

28 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

LPG here is aprox 12 baht per litre

Gasohol 95 is aprox 28 baht per litre

Even tho LPG is 10-15% less energy, this is how my cost per km on LPG is half what it is on 95

Any other hand holding required - let me know

http://www.eppo.go.th/index.php/en/

Everywhere I look in CM, LPG is 14-15 baht/litre. I don't understand why you would post a link that gives gasoline prices only.

No hand-holding needed - I'm not gay. On the other hand, you do need to improve your understanding of simple logic. I  note you are not pushing the spark plug BS anymore, so there may be some hope for you.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and the inflammatory replies have been removed. 

[JAS21]

18 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You said it. You just extinguished my hopes for you. I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.

I seem to remember on another thread you said that reading posts on TV shortened your lifespan.

O ... Now we are quoting Crossy ... I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you. I read that Canthai was quoting cost/km running. Also, you mis-understand that when running LPG colder spark plugs are frequently the better option, but not always... if you don't know what colder spark plugs are ... google is your friend.

 

One of our cars is on LPG and cost/km is about half but as you say that doesn't take into account the up front costs etc etc.

 

Give it a rest now please.....

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

O ... Now we are quoting Crossy ... I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you. I read that Canthai was quoting cost/km running. Also, you mis-understand that when running LPG colder spark plugs are frequently the better option, but not always... if you don't know what colder spark plugs are ... google is your friend.

 

One of our cars is on LPG and cost/km is about half but as you say that doesn't take into account the up front costs etc etc.

 

Give it a rest now please.....

Colder spark plugs will help extend plug life. They have nothing to do with cylinder head temperatures, which are determined by the fuel composition and oxygen present.

Try to understand basic science, please.

[JAS21]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Colder spark plugs will help extend plug life. They have nothing to do with cylinder head temperatures, which are determined by the fuel composition and oxygen present.

Try to understand basic science, please.

You are obviously a chemist and not an engineer ... sorry but you way off on this ... I refuse to explain to you the importance of electrode length and the effect that it has on the spark plug operation ... please google and understand. Who said that they have anything to do with cylinder head temperatures, of course they don't!!  

[Lacessit]

Just now, JAS21 said:

You are obviously a chemist and not an engineer ... sorry but you way off on this ... I refuse to explain to you the importance of electrode length and the effect that it has on the spark plug operation ... please google and understand. Who said that they have anything to do with cylinder head temperatures, of course they don't!!  

Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make to Canthai55.

[tomtaylor1]

Have run 2 jeep Wranglers also a Jeep Cherokee on Lpg, noticed no difference on kilometers covered using 91 or LPG. The cost savings were good as The Jeeps only did around 6.5/6.75 KML. The cost of the conversions were app 30000 Baht each. So at to days prices of 13 Baht for LPG and 28 for 91, = 1.93 KML for LPG and 4.15 baht for 91, after 13500 Kilometers it will have paid for itself.

Also always had a valve saver fluid container fitted, a mixture of 2 stroke oil and diesel, which lubricates the valve seats and stems. Never any problems.

Just out of interest, I took my Audi TTs, to see how much the cost would be to convert to LPG, they said cannot be done as it is direct fuel injection, so have not checked at any other shops, so it might be best to check out that side of things.

Regards Tom