Foreigner database to be ready in six months

[Expat Rob]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:29 PM, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

This paranoid military "government" will cost Thailand a lot in tourist revenue if they keep on with this stupidity.

I've been reading for decades how this or that policy will wreak havoc with tourist numbers yet year after year the arrivals numbers climb...time to come up with a new angle.

[GroveHillWanderer]

11 hours ago, the guest said:

... and they don't in the west?

Not usually, no. In none of the western countries I'm familiar with, is it considered usual for people to spy on their neighbours and report on them to the authorities.

[dontoearth]

On 2/14/2018 at 6:44 PM, mdmayes said:

Two problems I see with this. 1. To have a system up and running (bug free) in six months is a very tall order. Tall as in Mount Everest tall. 2. This will mean hour upon hour upon hour of line ups at immigration coming into the country. Having to enter your own info at electronic stations. I forcast that it will be one big cluster at the airports.

    If they use the E-passport all the data will already be in it.  No need for anyone to stand at a terminal and type in data.  I see that at more and more airports.  I quick swipe of the barcode.  Answering no by pushing a big block NO on the screen for bringing in plants or farm animals and on your way with a little ticket.  Works quite nice.  

      I was wondering if all of the countries have those new barcode passports ready for this system?

 

[Muggi1968]

This is great.

They could actually just copy the system from Malaysia...

It is so easy entering Malaysia.
Just put the thumbs on the scanner.. 1 sec and you are done...

Sorry but i support the progress of the military government. 
(I am not a criminal, so i have nothing to hide)

 

I know.. I know
I am not a suitable user for Thai Visa.. The Hub of negativity 

[bluesofa]

21 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

    If they use the E-passport all the data will already be in it.  No need for anyone to stand at a terminal and type in data.  I see that at more and more airports.  I quick swipe of the barcode.  Answering no by pushing a big block NO on the screen for bringing in plants or farm animals and on your way with a little ticket.  Works quite nice.  

      I was wondering if all of the countries have those new barcode passports ready for this system?

 

The E-passport? I'm assuming you mean the biometric data for the passport holder?

That only has the passport holders details in it.

 

If someone enters Thailand using a visa, then there will be a certain amount of data the embassy had access to on the applicant's visa form. What I don't know is if:

one) the Thai embassy/consulate issuing the visa has, or will in the future, log all these details on their computer system?

two) if they have, are all embassies and consulates sending this data to immigration, for them to add to their own system?

 

The other group who immigration will have no prior details of are those entering on a visa-waiver basis (aka the 30 day stamp).

 

The way I see it, there's still a long way to go before the idea of 'a quick swipe of the barcode' will satisfy Thai immigration - that is, if they still want to log the same data they have been doing for decades now.

 

The 'passport scanner' mentioned in the article will read the biometric data (and perhaps a Thai visa in the passport?)

The fingerprint scanner obviously can link your fingerprints to your biometric data.

 

Perhaps someone else has more details about all this? I'd be genuinely interested.

 

[Mattd]

If a proper system is installed, then tourist visa applications via an embassy would become a thing of the past, that part of the visa system would have to go online to make it effective.

 

[Bangkok Barry]

On 2/14/2018 at 4:40 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Wanna bet???

 

My only question is, can they find enough Windows 98 certified software engineers to help them get their platform off the ground?

 

Don't worry. Someone will know someone who has a nephew who once read Computers For Dummies.

[Confuscious]

Who is going to program the Database?
The same guys who were in charge of translating the RedBull criminal papers for InterPol?
Took them 5 years.
ROTFLMAO

[GroveHillWanderer]

18 hours ago, CeeGee said:

I can just imagine the situation.Lines snaking back to the aircraft whilst the immigration officer having scanned your thumb and passport in five seconds, takes  15 mins to type in your address given to him verbally by the farang trying to make sense of his Thai address and give it to the official (who speaks perfect English Chinese and at least five other languages and can type at 50 wpm) .

 

It's not clear to me that they would need to do this - according to the article, getting rid of the TM6 goes along with tightening up on enforcement of the requirements for the TM30. So (theoretically at least) every foreigner should be reported by the person responsible for the accommodation they are staying in - and which includes both commercial and private properties. If they are successful in enforcing the use of the TM30 (and it's a big 'if') then there should be no need for the IO to ask for your intended address when you enter the country.

[paulbj2]

On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 4:47 PM, wgdanson said:

Now they will really have to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10.

No problem there are hacked copies of Windoze 10 available "very cheap" at almost any market if you know where to look!

[paulbj2]

On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 6:44 PM, mdmayes said:

Two problems I see with this. 1. To have a system up and running (bug free) in six months is a very tall order. Tall as in Mount Everest tall. 2. This will mean hour upon hour upon hour of line ups at immigration coming into the country. Having to enter your own info at electronic stations. I forcast that it will be one big cluster at the airports.

Before I retired, I used to be a software engineer and the idea that you could spec out, design, code, test and roll out a system like that in six months gave me the biggest laugh of the week so far! If they are looking for a project manager (scapegoat), for 500,000 Baht a month, I wouldn't take the bloody job! 

 

I would say something more like 12 months to prepare the spec and design the system, 12 months to do the coding then a further 12 months to test and debug it and finally another 12 months to rollout the hardware and software to all international airports. 

 

That's a realistic total of four years - not six months. However, this is a civil service job and, based on my experience of working for very large bureaucratic organizations like that, in various parts of the world,  I would say that you need to add 50% - 100% to that timescale to allow for "bureaucratic lag".

 

I guess if you put the whole project in the hands of a decent software house, you might be able to do better than four years but I doubt it and in any case the probably wouldn't do that!

 

 

[dontoearth]

5 hours ago, bluesofa said:

The E-passport? I'm assuming you mean the biometric data for the passport holder?

That only has the passport holders details in it.

 

If someone enters Thailand using a visa, then there will be a certain amount of data the embassy had access to on the applicant's visa form. What I don't know is if:

one) the Thai embassy/consulate issuing the visa has, or will in the future, log all these details on their computer system?

two) if they have, are all embassies and consulates sending this data to immigration, for them to add to their own system?

 

The other group who immigration will have no prior details of are those entering on a visa-waiver basis (aka the 30 day stamp).

 

The way I see it, there's still a long way to go before the idea of 'a quick swipe of the barcode' will satisfy Thai immigration - that is, if they still want to log the same data they have been doing for decades now.

 

The 'passport scanner' mentioned in the article will read the biometric data (and perhaps a Thai visa in the passport?)

The fingerprint scanner obviously can link your fingerprints to your biometric data.

 

Perhaps someone else has more details about all this? I'd be genuinely interested.

 

      There is not enough information in the article to know what level of capability they are going for with this system.  It is quite possible to purchase commercial access and get some countries to cooperate by making their own databases of criminals available in a read-only format.  This info could be used directly from the airlines passenger list hours before anyone arrives and 'finally' they could turn away visa-exempt tourist that are potential problems.

        Long term thai visa holders from the USA are required to get their own background checks and submit them so that work is already done.

        However, having never been able to use the online 90-day reporting at immigration because of its bugs, I have little faith they will have a very sophisticated system anytime soon.

         It doesn't even seem that all the info you are required to give to the Thai consulate in a foreign country is ever made available here in Thailand to immigration.   

         Before anyone starts the Thai bashing remember the USA does not do a much better job with any of this...and probably won't anytime soon.

[bluesofa]

5 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

      There is not enough information in the article to know what level of capability they are going for with this system.  It is quite possible to purchase commercial access and get some countries to cooperate by making their own databases of criminals available in a read-only format.  This info could be used directly from the airlines passenger list hours before anyone arrives and 'finally' they could turn away visa-exempt tourist that are potential problems.

        Long term thai visa holders from the USA are required to get their own background checks and submit them so that work is already done.

        However, having never been able to use the online 90-day reporting at immigration because of its bugs, I have little faith they will have a very sophisticated system anytime soon.

         It doesn't even seem that all the info you are required to give to the Thai consulate in a foreign country is ever made available here in Thailand to immigration.   

         Before anyone starts the Thai bashing remember the USA does not do a much better job with any of this...and probably won't anytime soon.

Thanks for  your post. I appreciate you having directly addressed some of the points I raised.

 

[mods: below is not really OT, as it is about integrating an immigration system, but elsewhere]

 

Regarding your last sentence about the USA not doing too good a job:

I'm British, and from what I've read in the press, the UK government have been for years now trying to integrate various departments on a more common system, so they can share the same data.

IIRC the government awarded the contract to some company-or-other, who spent a few years getting it all to work - or rather failing miserably. So far it has cost a few billion pounds with no real results.

 

One of the requirements was for the UK immigration department to be able to pass data the other departments as to who was entering and leaving the country.

The Home Office are unable to supply an answer as to the number of visa over-stayers. Why? Because although they stamp visa holders into the country, from what I have read they don't keep track of those leaving, therefore have no idea of numbers.

When as a UK passport-holder I enter or leave the UK, nothing is stamped in my passport, so they have no idea of I'm in or out of the country.

I see there are some self-scanning counters now, but from what I've written above you can see they won't be doing anything useful with the data.

 

[mike324]

14 hours ago, Xiao said:

A suspect can write on the Arrival Card any hotel name which are all fake information. TM6 is nonsense if you want to keep tract of the criminals. People who cannot understand English and Thai have a nightmare when they fill in that form on the airplane.

well, its better than no info. There times when folks who don't intend on committing a crime who ends up doing so. Filling the form is same for pretty much everywhere you go if you travel as a visitor, complaining about the language is no use. It could also be used to track down missing person who are not criminals.

[mike324]

On 2/15/2018 at 11:33 AM, LoVeFuN said:

What happens when I give my girlfriends address entering on visa exempt, are they supposed to notify police in that area ?.

No, its just for record keeping. They don't notify police in the area.

[bluesofa]

3 minutes ago, mike324 said:

On 15/02/2018 at 11:33 AM, LoVeFuN said:

What happens when I give my girlfriends address entering on visa exempt, are they supposed to notify police in that area ?.

No, its just for record keeping. They don't notify police in the area.

But don't forget once you arrive there, it's your girlfriend who should be informing immigration herself, via form TM30.

 

[Thian]

On 2/14/2018 at 9:15 PM, RickBradford said:

It doesn't matter how good the system is potentially, if it is managed by people who don't understand it, or can't be bothered to operate it correctly.

 

When systems are managed by smart people, they make things easier. When systems are managed by idiots, they make things more difficult, even for the idiots themselves.

 

Given that my experience is that most Thais are unable to screw the top back on a bottle of water without cross-threading it, the evidence is strongly in favor of a complex system like this turning into another national joke.

It's like in the Makro, they took that wholesaleshop over from the West and the cashiers only have to bleep barcodes right? Except the nets of onions (1 kg) which you first have let get weighed and priced but you just have to know it. And the avocado's (cost 59 a piece) have to get a handwritten sticker from the girl and for that she has to search the code for avocado's in the map to write it on the sticker by hand.

They can't just sticker all the avocado's in advance so you can just grab one, same with the nets of onions. 

 

If you arrive at the cashiers without the stickers they'll call the assistant who will run to the grocerydepartment to get the sticker, i 've had it 3 times in row and they won't change it.

 

They just won't understand Western systems.

[RickBradford]

^^^

Exactly.

 

Stupidity + advanced system technology is as bad, if not worse, than stupidity alone.

 

 

[MrY]

My guess: Won't happen this year or next. They might get it working if it was just Swampy, but all border points? No way.

[Dale75]

Just a thought.............

I am sure that ThaiVisa members collectively have the appropriate skills to offer to the junta to resolve their problems with what seems to be a simple database implemantation.

Why not?

 

Just another thought.....................

I must have been living here too long. 

I apologise for the above. 

Obvious evidence that I have lost my mind and that I have forgotten that normal rules do not apply here.

 

I mean, if suspect aliens offered their services to solve a relatively simple problem then they must have a covert, subversive agenda. Surely?

Ok, I'll get my coat.

 

[MrY]

4 minutes ago, Dale75 said:

Just a thought.............

I am sure that ThaiVisa members collectively have the appropriate skills to offer to the junta to resolve their problems with what seems to be a simple database implemantation.

Why not?

 

Just another thought.....................

I must have been living here too long. 

I apologise for the above. 

Obvious evidence that I have lost my mind and that I have forgotten that normal rules do not apply here.

 

I mean, if suspect aliens offered their services to solve a relatively simple problem then they must have a covert, subversive agenda. Surely?

Ok, I'll get my coat.

 

 

They seem to believe they have the know-how. From what I've seen even the big internationals run into a bit of Thai "I do better for you". From personal observation most companies (car manufacturers, electronics companies, airlines, etc) seem to suffer from Thai 'improvements' to their websites and databases. What do foreigners know that they don't? It won't happen unless the Chinese come to rescue. (I think they respect [and envy] the Chinese just for having a stronger word for foreigner...)

[Get Real]

I sincerely hope that they get a new form that everybody have to fill in too. Then everyone here gets something to talk and complain about.
As I am concerned, they just have to ask for the information they want, and I have no problem to provide it.

Just hope this one works, and they can stop more of the crimes and criminals directly at arrival. It´s a positive and good try to make that happen anyway.

[Mattd]

18 hours ago, paulbj2 said:

Before I retired, I used to be a software engineer and the idea that you could spec out, design, code, test and roll out a system like that in six months gave me the biggest laugh of the week so far! If they are looking for a project manager (scapegoat), for 500,000 Baht a month, I wouldn't take the bloody job! 

 

I would say something more like 12 months to prepare the spec and design the system, 12 months to do the coding then a further 12 months to test and debug it and finally another 12 months to rollout the hardware and software to all international airports. 

 

That's a realistic total of four years - not six months. However, this is a civil service job and, based on my experience of working for very large bureaucratic organizations like that, in various parts of the world,  I would say that you need to add 50% - 100% to that timescale to allow for "bureaucratic lag".

 

I guess if you put the whole project in the hands of a decent software house, you might be able to do better than four years but I doubt it and in any case the probably wouldn't do that!

 

 

Whilst I do agree that 6 months will be impossible to achieve, I would have thought that it would take less than four years.

The assumption of that length of time is that it will be a completely new, ground up project that has never been tried before.

The reality is that these systems have been implemented in a lot of countries now and the 'know how' is available at a price, I cannot be 100% certain that the Thai government will employ a good software / hardware company, but I am 90% sure, I know of quite a few farangs that do consultancy work for various government departments, they do outsource this type of thing when they do not have the knowledge in house.

IMHO this is a good idea and most will benefit from it in the end.

[Raymonddiaz]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:38 PM, the guest said:

... and they don't in the west?

I don't have this in my country..How about yours?

[StevieAus]

On 2/16/2018 at 5:21 PM, Thian said:

It's like in the Makro, they took that wholesaleshop over from the West and the cashiers only have to bleep barcodes right? Except the nets of onions (1 kg) which you first have let get weighed and priced but you just have to know it. And the avocado's (cost 59 a piece) have to get a handwritten sticker from the girl and for that she has to search the code for avocado's in the map to write it on the sticker by hand.

They can't just sticker all the avocado's in advance so you can just grab one, same with the nets of onions. 

 

If you arrive at the cashiers without the stickers they'll call the assistant who will run to the grocerydepartment to get the sticker, i 've had it 3 times in row and they won't change it.

 

They just won't understand Western systems.

Don’t know which Makro you visit but at our store everything pre packed including vegetables, fruit seafood etc has a barcode label

The only stuff that has to be weighed and have a label attached is produce you select yourself that is not pre packed 

The only time someone goes running back for a label is when I forget to have it weighed.

 

[StevieAus]

On 2/17/2018 at 8:29 AM, Mattd said:

Whilst I do agree that 6 months will be impossible to achieve, I would have thought that it would take less than four years.

The assumption of that length of time is that it will be a completely new, ground up project that has never been tried before.

The reality is that these systems have been implemented in a lot of countries now and the 'know how' is available at a price, I cannot be 100% certain that the Thai government will employ a good software / hardware company, but I am 90% sure, I know of quite a few farangs that do consultancy work for various government departments, they do outsource this type of thing when they do not have the knowledge in house.

IMHO this is a good idea and most will benefit from it in the end.

Do you really believe the Thai government would seek assistance from governments overseas, rememberthe airline fiasco it was only when it looked like Thai airlines were going to be banned from the EU that they sought assistance.

On another point I reckon they could produced reason wine here if they sought assistance from overseas wine makers but “ oh no we are Thai we don’t need help”

I only tried Thai wine once never again.

[ChrisY1]

All they have to do now is stop the walk ins over the porous borders.....

Anyway....the system will fail often with so many dolts trying to use it!

[jimster]

On 2/14/2018 at 4:51 PM, Briggsy said:

It won't work.

 

The I.T. will fail. The data protection will be non-existent. The smaller hotels, condos, apartments, etc. won't comply.

 

But most importantly, when it gets down to the level of actual application, the lofty goals will be long since forgotten and it will simply be turned into a revenue-raising exercise like all other initiatives.

Even some of the bigger ones won't. They can afford to pay off the cops if necessary anyway. All depends on the location of the hotel, rather than it's brand name or size. For example, I've heard Khao San road is strict (and some places there don't accept Thai nationals as guests <deleted>) but elsewhere in Bangkok they don't care as much. Ditto for many upcountry cities.

[bluesofa]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:14 PM, webfact said:

The order was given by Deputy Prime Minister General Prawit Wongsuwan when he chaired the meeting of the fifth government committee in charge of bureaucratic reforms at Government House, said deputy government spokesman Kongcheep Tantrawanich.  

 

On 2/14/2018 at 3:14 PM, webfact said:

The two agencies were told to have the new system fully functioning in six months.

<sarcastic mode:on>

I see there's now only two weeks to go until the deadline from the PR-statement-bullshit above, made back on 14th February.

I haven't seen any more news reports about it at all, to say perhaps they're doing a dry run, or final testing before the launch. I suppose they must be so excited right right now.

 

Note to self: Remember to trim fingernails and scrub fingers in anticipation, now that "each immigration checkpoint would be equipped with identity-checking equipment, such as fingerprint readers and passport scanners" and "the Immigration Bureau will cancel the use of the Immigration 6 form", just as the DPM Prawit has promised.

 

Slightly worried if the calendar function on one of Prawit's watches has perhaps suffered a glitch, and is running one lifetime slow? I did hear a claim that someone had seen a small inscription on his watch, stamped "Made in Blitish Empire", but naturally I don't believe stuff like that.

<sarcastic mode:off>

 

[kannot]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:14 PM, webfact said:

“This measure must be implemented in six months

time's  almost up and?