Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nontabury]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Meanwhile the EU is complaining that the Euro is too strong while the pound.......The UK is obviously an important market for the EU but the EU is apparently just as important to the UK otherwise why all the posturing, if it is so easy just walk away, don't just threaten it, but it can't be that easy. Standing alone may be all well and good for the Churchillians but the world has moved on since 75 years, financially it is a big bad woolfy sort of place and Trump only cares about Trump,no cavalry to the rescue there. "Now we are masters of our fate........" pathetic.

Last year many of the remainers were commenting on what they saw as the halt to the rise of anti E.U. Parties in the E.U. This was mainly based on the French and Dutch anti E.U. Parties failing, but not by much, to gain control.

Yet these same people forgot that there is an ever increasing Anti E.U. Movement elsewhere in Europe, not only Italy, but Austria, the Czech Republic, Sweden etc. 

and very importantly in countries that gain a great deal of financial help, from the British and German charity contributions. Mainly Poland and Hungary. 

So I think it’s fair to say that the E.U is imploding.

[Air Smiles]

7 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Last year many of the remainers were commenting on what they saw as the halt to the rise of anti E.U. Parties in the E.U. This was mainly based on the French and Dutch anti E.U. Parties failing, but not by much, to gain control.

Yet these same people forgot that there is an ever increasing Anti E.U. Movement elsewhere in Europe, not only Italy, but Austria, the Czech Republic, Sweden etc. 

and very importantly in countries that gain a great deal of financial help, from the British and German charity contributions. Mainly Poland and Hungary. 

So I think it’s fair to say that the E.U is imploding.

 

It's quite the leap to say the EU is imploding before any referendum has even been called in any of these countries you mention.

 

It would be very sobering for the rest of the EU to watch what would happen if Italy left the EU with its current debt mountain.

[soalbundy]

Just now, nontabury said:

Last year many of the remainers were commenting on what they saw as the halt to the rise of anti E.U. Parties in the E.U. This was mainly based on the French and Dutch anti E.U. Parties failing, but not by much, to gain control.

Yet these same people forgot that there is an ever increasing Anti E.U. Movement elsewhere in Europe, not only Italy, but Austria, the Czech Republic, Sweden etc. 

and very importantly in countries that gain a great deal of financial help, from the British and German charity contributions. Mainly Poland and Hungary. 

So I think it’s fair to say that the E.U is imploding.

No, it is healthy moaning, it's like the army, when the squaddies stop complaining there is trouble afoot. Even though the political class in Italy moan about the Euro the rank and file don't want to go back to the undisciplined days of the Lira. The fiscal discipline forced on to Greece is now showing fruit. Certainly the Eastern countries are complaining about political interference (migrants?) and even a lot of Germans want a return to the DM (ah the good old days, my german pension would no doubt be 20% more worth here if that happened) but all in all it's not imploding. I have lived in Germany over 45 years and still read German newspapers online, Brexit is barely mentioned.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Air Smiles said:

 

It's quite the leap to say the EU is imploding before any referendum has even been called in any of these countries you mention.

 

It would be very sobering for the rest of the EU to watch what would happen if Italy left the EU with its current debt mountain.

A debt which is in Euro's which they will have to pay off with a strongly devalued Lira, aint going to happen.

[owl sees all]

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Liverpool Mick for gawd's sake - and Brexiteers wonder why we scoff at them. What other killer facts / opinions has 'Liverpool Mick' got for our delectation I wonder?

Liverpool Mick did indeed email me. The origings of the poll/survey actually came from Southport Les who asked each of his passengers (fares) to vote; on his afternoon shift. He is a mini-cab driver and later he went into the Railway Tavern, for a jar, and told everyone in the 'snug' his findings. Mick jotted the numbers down and emailed me. The actual vote (in numbers) was; leave 10, remain 4 and not bothered (or similar) 2. Two destroyed balot papers; not counted.

 

3 hours ago, vogie said:

You have challenged owlseesall, he has replied to you, why can't you await his reponse before comments like "and brexiteers wonder why we scoff at them." It has to be said the insults are very one sided, but as I have said we know why.

 

Thanks for being patient Vogie. These remoaners just can't wait to shoot the messenger. And to insult those that don't see things their way.

 

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Well, if we are seeking rational, informed debate, the onus should have been on owlseesall to find a credible source for his claim prior to introducing it into the mix.

 

I thought the latest poll/survey results too important to be held back.

 

Southport Les reckons the swing is the 'Tony Blair' effect. They are not too keen on him in Liverpool.

Edited March 6, 2018 by owl sees all

[Air Smiles]

21 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

A debt which is in Euro's which they will have to pay off with a strongly devalued Lira, aint going to happen.

 

What happened in Greece would look like a party for rich people in comparison.

 

Zimbabwe might be closer....

 

Now we have to wait and see how the UK will fair with it's debt mountain and a strongly devalued pound.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Air Smiles

[nauseus]

53 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Meanwhile the EU is complaining that the Euro is too strong while the pound.......The UK is obviously an important market for the EU but the EU is apparently just as important to the UK otherwise why all the posturing, if it is so easy just walk away, don't just threaten it, but it can't be that easy. Standing alone may be all well and good for the Churchillians but the world has moved on since 75 years, financially it is a big bad woolfy sort of place and Trump only cares about Trump,no cavalry to the rescue there. "Now we are masters of our fate........" pathetic.

If that was a response to me then it was..truly pathetic. I have never claimed that leaving would be easy. Exactly the opposite in fact. The difficulty of withdrawal now exposes the amount of "political union" already designed, installed and ingrained in this calculated mess.

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Southport Les reckons the swing is the 'Tony Blair' effect. They are not too keen on him in Liverpool.

Southport Les and Tony Blair swinging? Are we back to Malaga Teddy's Miranda again?

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If that was a response to me then it was..truly pathetic. I have never claimed that leaving would be easy. Exactly the opposite in fact. The difficulty of withdrawal now exposes the amount of "political union" already designed, installed and ingrained in this calculated mess.

The word pathetic wasn't aimed at you personally, I usually refrain from such insults, everybody is entitled to respect. We know nothing, we can only speculate. Pathetic was a response to the pathos of many Brexiters, "we have our country back etc". They never had it, unless they sit in the house of Lords, Joe Bloggs gets his say every 4 years where he can react to the lies told to him in the manifesto.

[nauseus]

43 minutes ago, Air Smiles said:

 

It's quite the leap to say the EU is imploding before any referendum has even been called in any of these countries you mention.

 

It would be very sobering for the rest of the EU to watch what would happen if Italy left the EU with its current debt mountain.

Referendum?! Hilarious.

[soalbundy]

13 minutes ago, Air Smiles said:

 

What happened in Greece would look like a party for rich people in comparison.

 

Zimbabwe might be closer....

 

Now we have to wait and see how the UK will fair with it's debt mountain and a strongly devalued pound.

 

 

Easy, raise the pension boarder to 85 and cut all benefits, privatise the NHS, reduce the housing allowance and give the homeless cardboard boxes to sleep in, coming to the UK soon.

[Grouse]

Here's a thought, whatever you may think, Brussels Eurocrats are not fools. They see the rise of nationalism and they understand the Euro difficulties. I think, that with a new coalition in Germany, Macron in France and a shaken if not stirred Italy, change is afoot. I do hope they fix some of the many issues that require attention. 

 

If they do this before the end of the increasingly misnamed "transition period", Brexit will be dead and buried. 

 

(The turnips never bothered to find out which elements of the EU I would like to see changed. Some of them were won by Cameron but were jettisoned on the referendum vote and now forgotten. ?

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The word pathetic wasn't aimed at you personally, I usually refrain from such insults, everybody is entitled to respect. We know nothing, we can only speculate. Pathetic was a response to the pathos of many Brexiters, "we have our country back etc". They never had it, unless they sit in the house of Lords, Joe Bloggs gets his say every 4 years where he can react to the lies told to him in the manifesto.

Joe still has infinitely more say than he ever had in the EEC/EC/EU! If our system of government is so bad why have an additional and worse one that has primacy?  

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Here's a thought, whatever you may think, Brussels Eurocrats are not fools. They see the rise of nationalism and they understand the Euro difficulties. I think, that with a new coalition in Germany, Macron in France and a shaken if not stirred Italy, change is afoot. I do hope they fix some of the many issues that require attention. 

 

If they do this before the end of the increasingly misnamed "transition period", Brexit will be dead and buried. 

 

(The turnips never bothered to find out which elements of the EU I would like to see changed. Some of them were won by Cameron but were jettisoned on the referendum vote and now forgotten. ?

Your thought noted. What I would add is that I see the whole vegetable garden is in need of a good turnover. That's a hell of a lot of turnips.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Joe still has infinitely more say than he ever had in the EEC/EC/EU! If our system of government is so bad why have an additional and worse one that has primacy?  

I wouldn't say it's worse, I lived well under it in Germany, What I am saying is that Joe Bloggs has no real say anywhere, occasionally as in Italy or the UK they change things through anger (a poor meister) which can have unintended results, fascism relies on anger and the UK and Italy have now strong right groups which can quickly turn brown.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I wouldn't say it's worse, I lived well under it in Germany, What I am saying is that Joe Bloggs has no real say anywhere, occasionally as in Italy or the UK they change things through anger (a poor meister) which can have unintended results, fascism relies on anger and the UK and Italy have now strong right groups which can quickly turn brown.

As I think we all know, Germany has always had a very special place in the EU. 

[soalbundy]

Just now, nauseus said:

As I think we all know, Germany has always had a very special place in the EU. 

There are 27 countries in the EU with equal voting rights. The German parliamentary system is better, i think, than the British system in that they have proportional representation in the house instead of winner takes all.

[aright]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Here's a thought, whatever you may think, Brussels Eurocrats are not fools. 

They certainly are fools!  Only fools would be so out of touch with the electorate they put in place a system of control which in no way serves the needs of the electorate  and at worst causes a significant rise of severe right wing political parties. If things don't change ( lets not forget Barnier and Juncker called for more federalism after the referendum) I am sure things will get progressively worse.

[aright]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There are 27 countries in the EU with equal voting rights. The German parliamentary system is better, i think, than the British system in that they have proportional representation in the house instead of winner takes all.

Is this the Parliamentary system that left them without a Government for six months?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, aright said:

They certainly are fools!  Only fools would be so out of touch with the electorate they put in place a system of control which in no way serves the needs of the electorate  and at worst causes a significant rise of severe right wing political parties. If things don't change ( lets not forget Barnier and Juncker called for more federalism after the referendum) I am sure things will get progressively worse.

does seem rather tactless but necessary from an economic point of view, more federalism won't happen for at least another 20 years, there is too much opposition, Juncker is not an Emperor and his days are numbered anyway.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

Is this the Parliamentary system that left them without a Government for six months?

Yes, can happen anywhere, look at May, she had to bribe the DUP to form a government, that would have caused an outcry in Germany, they managed it in the end.

[nauseus]

Just now, soalbundy said:

There are 27 countries in the EU with equal voting rights. The German parliamentary system is better, i think, than the British system in that they have proportional representation in the house instead of winner takes all.

The problem with EU voting rights and 'equality' is that minority parties have had to accept the (QMV) majority vote more and more, while at the same time losing more veto powers. This means that decisions that may be unpopular or unfavourable to a particular nation (usually the UK) have occurred with greater frequency.  

 

Yes, I think the UK should at least consider a change of system. With a referendum to confirm any such change, of course!

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

does seem rather tactless but necessary from an economic point of view, more federalism won't happen for at least another 20 years, there is too much opposition, Juncker is not an Emperor and his days are numbered anyway.

It doesn't matter when. We don't want it ever!

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

It doesn't matter when. We don't want it ever!

I do

[oldlakey]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I do

I suggest Berlin 

[soalbundy]

Just now, oldlakey said:

I suggest Berlin 

Munich was better, beautiful scenery, the Isar river, wonderful beer gardens and well within range of the mountains for skiing.

[oldlakey]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

Munich was better, beautiful scenery, the Isar river, wonderful beer gardens and well within range of the mountains for skiing.

Enjoy

[aright]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, can happen anywhere, look at May, she had to bribe the DUP to form a government, that would have caused an outcry in Germany, they managed it in the end.

You make it sound like Merkel didn't have to give ground to form a coalition, I would regard giving ground as a form of bribe.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, oldlakey said:

Enjoy

I did

[Bangkok Barry]

On 2/28/2018 at 7:03 AM, rixalex said:

If you ignore this referendum result, as you propose and support, the consequence would be that nobody henceforth would take any referendum seriously, knowing that the outcome need not be acted upon.

 

In any referendum that I've heard about people were given firm facts of for and against. That most certainly wasn't the case with Brexit. The answer to every question about it was 'We'll sort that out when we get to it'. No-one was given any firm facts at all, and exiters largely voted on keeping immigration figures down. What they didn't know and weren't told was that far more immigrants come to the UK from outside the EU than from within it. Indians, for one.

And the huge bogey in the room is the border with Ireland. It is an insoluble problem.