Trump can probably pardon himself, but has no plan to -Giuliani

[webfact]

Trump can probably pardon himself, but has no plan to -Giuliani

By Yasmeen Abutaleb and Arshad Mohammed

 

President Donald Trump's attorney Rudy Giuliani arrives with his guest Jennifer Leblanc at the White House in Washington, U.S., May 30, 2018. REUTERS/Joshua Roberts

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump, under pressure from special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russia's role in the 2016 U.S. election, probably has the power to pardon himself but does not plan to do so, his attorney Rudy Giuliani said on Sunday.

 

Asked whether Trump has the power to give himself a pardon, Giuliani said, "He's not, but he probably does." Giuliani added that Trump "has no intention of pardoning himself," but that the U.S. Constitution, which gives a president the authority to issue pardons, "doesn't say he can't."

 

Speaking on ABC's "This Week" programme, Giuliani added, "It would be an open question. I think it would probably get answered by, gosh, that's what the Constitution says."

 

Mueller is investigating whether Russia meddled in the presidential election and whether Trump's campaign colluded with Moscow.

 

Mueller, whose investigation already has led to criminal charges against Trump campaign aides including former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, is also looking into whether Trump unlawfully sought to obstruct the Russia investigation.

 

Both Russia and Trump deny collusion, and the president has denied obstructing the probe.

 

Giuliani noted that the political ramifications of a self-pardon could be severe. Giuliani told NBC's "Meet the Press with Chuck Todd" that "the president of the United States pardoning himself would just be unthinkable. And it would lead to probably an immediate impeachment."

 

Under the Constitution, a president can be impeached by the House of Representatives and then removed from office by the Senate.

 

The possibility of a self-pardon appeared to be raised in a Jan. 29 letter from Trump's lawyers to Mueller, published by the New York Times on Saturday, arguing that the president could not have obstructed the probe given the powers granted to him by the Constitution.

 

"It remains our position that the President's actions here, by virtue of his position as the chief law enforcement officer, could neither constitutionally nor legally constitute obstruction because that would amount to him obstructing himself, and that he could, if he wished, terminate the inquiry, or even exercise his power to pardon if he so desired," Trump's lawyers wrote.

 

The letter did not explicitly describe the possibility of Trump pardoning himself.

 

Whether Trump may pardon himself is a matter of some debate.

 

A Justice Department memo dated four days before former President Richard Nixon resigned in 1974 during the Watergate political corruption scandal took the view that "under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case, the President cannot pardon himself."

 

House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, a Republican, made clear he did not think Trump or any other president should pardon himself. "I don't think a president should pardon themselves," he told CNN's "State of the Union."

 

'MINOR LEGAL ARGUMENT'

Former Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara, fired by Trump last year along with numerous other federal prosecutors, said it would be "outrageous" for a sitting president to pardon himself and that doing so would represent "almost self-executing impeachment."

 

"Whether or not there is a minor legal argument that some law professor somewhere in a legal journal can make that the president can pardon, that's not what the framers could have intended," Bharara said on said on CNN's "State of the Union" programme, referring to the authors of the Constitution.

 

Trump has not been shy about using his pardon power.

 

The president on Thursday pardoned conservative commentator and filmmaker Dinesh D'Souza, who pleaded guilty in 2014 to U.S. campaign finance law violations.

 

Trump also said he was considering pardoning lifestyle maven Martha Stewart and commuting the prison sentence of former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, convicted of corruption charges. Critics accused Trump of subverting the rule of law.

 

Giuliani told ABC it is an "open question" whether Trump would sit for an interview with Mueller but that the president's lawyers were leaning against having him testify.

 

Giuliani also said the president's legal team planned to challenge any potential subpoena from Mueller's office as harassment or as unnecessary because the White House has turned over more than a million documents and several witnesses.

 

Trump took to Twitter on Sunday to again rage against the FBI and Justice Department, saying he would not have hired Manafort if he had been told Manafort was already under investigation.

 

"As only one of two people left who could become President, why wouldn't the FBI or Department of 'Justice' have told me that they were secretly investigating Paul Manafort (on charges that were 10 years old and had been previously dropped) during my campaign? Should have told me!" Trump tweeted.

 

"Paul Manafort came into the campaign very late and was with us for a short period of time ... but we should have been told that Comey and the boys were doing a number on him, and he wouldn't have been hired!" Trump wrote, referring to former FBI Director James Comey, who Trump fired last year.

 

(Reporting by Yasmeen Abutaleb and Arshad Mohammed; Additional reporting by Alexia Garamfalvi in New York; Writing by Arshad Mohammed; Editing by Will Dunham)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-06-04

[YetAnother]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

probably has the power to pardon himself but does not plan to do so, his attorney Rudy Giuliani said on Sunday.

besides taking the word of an ex politician and lawyer, self pardon is a perverted, twisted idea; amounts to total immunity; can do whatever he wants, laws don't apply...

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

"As only one of two people left who could become President, why wouldn't the FBI or Department of 'Justice' have told me that they were secretly investigating Paul Manafort (on charges that were 10 years old and had been previously dropped) during my campaign? Should have told me!" Trump tweeted.

 

"Paul Manafort came into the campaign very late and was with us for a short period of time ... but we should have been told that Comey and the boys were doing a number on him, and he wouldn't have been hired!" Trump wrote, referring to former FBI Director James Comey, who Trump fired last year.

Yes darn it!! Why doesn't the FBI/DOJ do all the vetting for the candidates... why do we have to vet our prospective hires ourselves and be subject to the rule of law if we choose to ignore the entire vetting process... whaaa, whaaa, whaaa.

 

This goes along well with RG's hilarious statement this weekend (after admitting that 45 DID write the memo regarding Jr's and others meeting with Russian agents [that, "they were discussing adoptions"...]) that 45's and the administrations "recollections were changing". Yeah, changing as they realize there is evidence and the lies are a quick ticket onto the perjury train.

[RaoulDuke]

Ah aint gotz no fancy lawyer digree, but ah do declare that a pardon requires one to admit to guilt (typically following a conviction).  Probably a good thing to save a few of the treason charges until after he gets impeached and removed from office (which will obviously not happen unless the jackasses can pull off a miracle and actually take over congress in November).  

 

Still, it is refreshing to see such honesty on the part of Giuliani in admitting the Trump is clearly guilty.

[Boon Mee]

A non-starter in that Trump hasn't done anything wrong, why even consider pardoning himself? 

[Emster23]

52 minutes ago, RaoulDuke said:

Ah aint gotz no fancy lawyer digree, but ah do declare that a pardon requires one to admit to guilt (typically following a conviction).  Probably a good thing to save a few of the treason charges until after he gets impeached and removed from office (which will obviously not happen unless the jackasses can pull off a miracle and actually take over congress in November).  

 

Still, it is refreshing to see such honesty on the part of Giuliani in admitting the Trump is clearly guilty.

 Ah don't recall Nixon ever admitting guilt before Ford gave him the pardon for any and all crimes charged or not.... I must have missed "divine right of kings" section in Constitution. If he could pardon himself, then game over. He could shoot someone on 5th avenue, but more likely shut down free press, opposition and throw out some members of Supreme Court. Spineless congress would just nod heads

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

Trump can probably pardon himself, but has no plan to

This is a very stupid expression. Of course he has no plan to do that. Even if he could, it would raise a rage against him using his powers to protect his own person and avoid responsibility.

No even Trump is that stupid, so he can´t figure out that.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Boon Mee said:

A non-starter in that Trump hasn't done anything wrong, why even consider pardoning himself? 

Troll

[klauskunkel]

preemptive self-pardoning before being convicted would make every headache go away...

is he catholic?

Edited June 4, 2018 by klauskunkel

[mtls2005]

The Howdy Rudy Show was in full swing on Sunday.

 

Seems like an odd thing to say about someone "who hasn't done anything wrong"?

 

But then he married his cousin so Rudy's not exactly working with a full set.

[kamahele]

1 hour ago, Boon Mee said:

A non-starter in that Trump hasn't done anything wrong, why even consider pardoning himself? 

Um, perhaps it was the  20 page letter to the special council stating that the president cannot be charged with obstruction of justice which indicates the president's own lawyers think he did...

[Becker]

Wish he did:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/03/politics/rudy-giuliani-donald-trump-pardon-himself/index.html

[Chomper Higgot]

Core of the assertion that the President can pardon himself is the belief that the President is above the law, that he alone is not subject to the laws the rest of us live by and live under.

 

I’d like to here the views of Trump supporters on that particular point.

[Thailand]

He would have no hesitation in pardoning himself if he thought it would get him out from under. No problem for the man with no scruples.

[zaphod reborn]

1 hour ago, Boon Mee said:

A non-starter in that Trump hasn't done anything wrong, why even consider pardoning himself? 

Exactly.  He heads a crime family that does all the dirty work for him.  He had guys like Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, Erik Prince, Mike Flynn and Michael Cohen actually do the illegal acts.  Too bad he won't be able to pardon his co-conspirators, because SCOTUS isn't going to allow him to do that.

[Opl]

a few well-chosen words… 

"‘Our recollection keeps changing’: Rudy Giuliani admits Trump may not testify because he can’t tell the Truth"

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/recollection-keeps-changing-rudy-giuliani-admits-may-not-testify-cant-tell-truth/

[jb61]

November 2016 and in the months leading up to the election: A Trump victory could single-handedly, in the words of The Washington Post, “destroy the world economy.”

That was then, this is now.

 

New York Times – June 1, 2018 “We Ran Out of Words to Describe How Good the Jobs Numbers Are”

“The economy is in a sweet spot, with steady growth and broad improvement in the labor market.”

“The U.S. economy is expanding at a 4.8 percent annualized rate in the second quarter, the Atlanta Federal Reserve’s GDPNow forecast model showed on Friday.”

CNBC – June 1, 2018

“The US economy suddenly looks like it's unstoppable.”

·         “Friday's economic data provided evidence the U.S. economy is heading into the second half of 2018 with strong momentum.”

·         “The U.S. added 223,000 jobs in May way above expectations and the unemployment rate dropped to 3.8 percent, according to Labor Department figures published on Friday.”

 Washington Examiner – June 1, 2018 “Black unemployment rate hits all time historical low.”

National Review – June 1, 2018 Gap Between Black and White Unemployment Hits Record Low

Well there it is.The data is in and the evidence is clear:

Trump’s collusion with Russia is slowly bringing down the U.S. economy. Trump is a racist bigot, and that the Orange Clown has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

God help us all.

[Chomper Higgot]

21 minutes ago, jb61 said:

November 2016 and in the months leading up to the election: A Trump victory could single-handedly, in the words of The Washington Post, “destroy the world economy.”

That was then, this is now.

 

New York Times – June 1, 2018 “We Ran Out of Words to Describe How Good the Jobs Numbers Are”

“The economy is in a sweet spot, with steady growth and broad improvement in the labor market.”

“The U.S. economy is expanding at a 4.8 percent annualized rate in the second quarter, the Atlanta Federal Reserve’s GDPNow forecast model showed on Friday.”

CNBC – June 1, 2018

“The US economy suddenly looks like it's unstoppable.”

·         “Friday's economic data provided evidence the U.S. economy is heading into the second half of 2018 with strong momentum.”

·         “The U.S. added 223,000 jobs in May way above expectations and the unemployment rate dropped to 3.8 percent, according to Labor Department figures published on Friday.”

 Washington Examiner – June 1, 2018 “Black unemployment rate hits all time historical low.”

National Review – June 1, 2018 Gap Between Black and White Unemployment Hits Record Low

Well there it is.The data is in and the evidence is clear:

Trump’s collusion with Russia is slowly bringing down the U.S. economy. Trump is a racist bigot, and that the Orange Clown has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

God help us all.

Yep the data is in and the evidence is clear.

 

The economy continues on the course set around 2010.

 

Trump rides on the economic legacy handed him by Obama. 

 

 

[selftaopath]

Here's a Patriot who knows Swamp King is a threat to our democracy.

 

[mike324]

lock them up, lock them up, trumps own words are pretty useful, he seems to be draining his own swamp more than anyone elses which is pretty ironic. 

[dunroaming]

6 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

A non-starter in that Trump hasn't done anything wrong, why even consider pardoning himself? 

Yes of course you are right but clearly Giuliani thinks it is an option that Trump needs.  When your lawyer says stuff like that then you really are stuffed!

 

But worry not BM because Trump is conducting a beautiful presidency and all the people love him.  That's what he keeps saying and as we know he never lies ? 

[Redline]

Any state that there was a crime committed in can prosecute the President, if it is allowed in that state.  New York is in the process of changing their law now to allow prosecution.  Surely the prosecutors are working with any relevant states, in order to avoid escape of the "king"

[selftaopath]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Core of the assertion that the President can pardon himself is the belief that the President is above the law, that he alone is not subject to the laws the rest of us live by and live under.

 

I’d like to here the views of Trump supporters on that particular point.

If U.S. democracy survives I think there ought to be many changes in the law. The Constitution seems to have assumed the President would be for the betterment of the country and the people. They seem to have never thought a/b this despicable example of slime. 

[Jingthing]

There he goes again!

Quote

President Trump Thinks He Is a King

Are presidents above the law? Trump’s lawyers seem to think so.

The president believes he is above the law. That’s the takeaway from the confidential 20-page memo sent by President Trump’s lawyers to the special counsel, Robert Mueller, published over the weekend by The Times. And it’s the same sentiment that Rudy Giuliani expressed on Sunday when he suggested that Mr. Trump has the power to pardon himself.

 

 

http://www.paywallnews.com/life/Opinion-|-President-Trump-Thinks-He-Is-a-King.HkjCHvGvWzxQ.html

[bristolboy]

5 hours ago, jb61 said:

November 2016 and in the months leading up to the election: A Trump victory could single-handedly, in the words of The Washington Post, “destroy the world economy.”

That was then, this is now.

 

New York Times – June 1, 2018 “We Ran Out of Words to Describe How Good the Jobs Numbers Are”

“The economy is in a sweet spot, with steady growth and broad improvement in the labor market.”

“The U.S. economy is expanding at a 4.8 percent annualized rate in the second quarter, the Atlanta Federal Reserve’s GDPNow forecast model showed on Friday.”

CNBC – June 1, 2018

“The US economy suddenly looks like it's unstoppable.”

·         “Friday's economic data provided evidence the U.S. economy is heading into the second half of 2018 with strong momentum.”

·         “The U.S. added 223,000 jobs in May way above expectations and the unemployment rate dropped to 3.8 percent, according to Labor Department figures published on Friday.”

 Washington Examiner – June 1, 2018 “Black unemployment rate hits all time historical low.”

National Review – June 1, 2018 Gap Between Black and White Unemployment Hits Record Low

Well there it is.The data is in and the evidence is clear:

Trump’s collusion with Russia is slowly bringing down the U.S. economy. Trump is a racist bigot, and that the Orange Clown has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

God help us all.

The weather is projected to be fine for the next week.

Trump’s collusion with Russia is slowly bringing down the U.S. economy. Trump is a racist bigot, and that the Orange Clown has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

God help us all.

You should look up the logical fallacy called by logicians "post hoc ergo propter hoc" Which literally means "after this therefore because of this".
 

 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, selftaopath said:

If U.S. democracy survives I think there ought to be many changes in the law. The Constitution seems to have assumed the President would be for the betterment of the country and the people. They seem to have never thought a/b this despicable example of slime. 

 

I don't know about The Constitution, but the Deceleration of Independence includes strong views on such matters (example, many others):

 

Quote

...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Morch

[JCauto]

17 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

A non-starter in that Trump hasn't done anything wrong, why even consider pardoning himself? 

That is indeed an interesting question. Why? Could it be, maybe, just maybe, he HAS done something wrong and therefore he IS considering pardoning himself? 

So just because Don acts like he's guilty as hell doesn't mean he is, but it sure doesn't provide one much confidence that he's not. Quite the contrary.

[Chomper Higgot]

 No attempts at all from Trump supporters to defend Trump’s assertion that he’s above the law.

 

Perhaps the cold reality of who and what Trump is is sinking in.

 

 

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 No attempts at all from Trump supporters to defend Trump’s assertion that he’s above the law.

 

Perhaps the cold reality of who and what Trump is is sinking in.

 

 

Naw, they just don't care.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 No attempts at all from Trump supporters to defend Trump’s assertion that he’s above the law.

 

Perhaps the cold reality of who and what Trump is is sinking in.

 

 

 

A while back there was a sentiment expressed by some Trump supporters on this score. To simplify, they "won", and as  the baiting, gloating and rubbing it in lose their novelty, things get back to "normal", from their point of view. Other than some regular diehards, most will not surface until the next elections. It is quite normal for the opposition to be more active on such political debates. Maybe it's seen as unnecessary, or a waste of energy by the side that won. 

 

Far as I can tell, it's been like that for as long as I joined TVF. This also applies to baiting the other side about not "showing up", though.

 

Wouldn't know that all Trump supporters like everything he does and says. That's ignoring some of his appeal apparently being grounded on simply not being HRC. Expecting all Trump supporters to be mindless drones is a cop out. Some are, some are not. Expecting all of them to defend whatever Trump does is bogus.