Rescuers ponder how to extract boys from flooded Thai cave as more rain due

[webfact]

Rescuers ponder how to extract boys from flooded Thai cave as more rain due

By Panu Wongcha-um

 

Rescue personnel work at the Tham Luang cave complex, as members of an under-16 soccer team and their coach have been found alive according to local media, in the northern province of Chiang Rai, Thailand July 4, 2018. Thai Navy Seal/Handout via REUTERS

 

CHIANG RAI, Thailand (Reuters) - Rescuers in Thailand were no closer on Thursday to deciding when and how to extract 12 boys and their soccer coach from a flooded cave complex, where they were found this week, pale and weak but otherwise in good health, after nine days lost underground.

 

Rescue personnel work at the Tham Luang cave complex, as members of an under-16 soccer team and their coach have been found alive according to local media, in the northern province of Chiang Rai, Thailand July 4, 2018. Thai Navy Seal/Handout via REUTERS

 

The dramatic search and rescue operation for the junior soccer team, who disappeared in the cave in the northern province of Chiang Rai on June 23, had seemed to be nearing an end when a team of British and Thai divers found the boys late on Monday, clustered on small, muddy bank in a flooded chamber.

 

But attention has now turned to how to get the group back out through several kilometres of dangerously flooded tunnels.

The navy has raised the possibility that the 13 could be in the Tham Luang cave in Chiang Rai province until the flood waters recede, at the end of the rainy season in four months.

 

But others say the boys could be out in a matter of days if the weather is on their side and water can be pumped out of the cave complex, and if they can be taught to use scuba gear.

 

Rescue personnel work at the Tham Luang cave complex, as members of an under-16 soccer team and their coach have been found alive according to local media, in the northern province of Chiang Rai, Thailand July 4, 2018. Thai Navy Seal/Handout via REUTERS

 

Kobchai Boonarana, deputy director-general of the Disaster Prevention and Mitigation department, said it was up to the rescue team in the cave to decide whether and when the boys would be strong enough to tackle the journey out.

 

"Their conditions, we can see that their morale is good but what about their strength and their ability? That's up to the team inside to decide," Kobchai told reporters on Thursday.

 

"Our job is to keep pumping out water and it is up to the team inside to assess the safety level and whether the kids can travel safely through," he said.

 

Some relatives of the boys gathered near the cave early on Thursday, where a few rescuers were marching up to its entrance, a contrast to days of frantic activity during a search that has grabbed media attention around the world.

 

One mother said she had still not been able to contact her boy.

 

"We can't send them messages yet," said Ratdao Chantrapul, 37, the mother of 14-year-old Prajak Sutham.

 

"Yesterday, they tried to take in mobile phones but the bag it was in broke," she said.

 

Rescuers had to contend with days of heavy rain that flooded the cave complex at the beginning of the search but the weather has been relatively dry for the past four days.

 

Rescuers have sent in food, water and medical staff while they have been pumping water out of the tunnels in a bid to lower water levels to help with the rescue.

 

But the meteorological department warned on Thursday that up to 60 percent of the country's north, including Chiang Rai, can expect heavy rain from July 7 to July 12.

 

Lost boys in Thailand cave:

 

(Additional reporting by Patpicha Tanakasempipat in CHIANG RAI, Amy Sawitta Lefevre and Panarat Thepgumpanat in BANGKOK; Writing by Amy Sawitta Lefevre; Editing by Robert Birsel)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-07-05

[darksidedog]

Very tricky dilemma and I am glad I am not the one making the call. God forbid that having come this far, there are casualties in trying to get them out hastily. I hope that the advice from the UK cave rescuers is listened to above all others. If they believe it is safe to dive them out, I would trust them. Safety has to come first.

[Eligius]

10 minutes ago, darksidedog said:

Very tricky dilemma and I am glad I am not the one making the call. God forbid that having come this far, there are casualties in trying to get them out hastily. I hope that the advice from the UK cave rescuers is listened to above all others. If they believe it is safe to dive them out, I would trust them. Safety has to come first.

Well said, Darksidedog. I could not have said it better. The dilemma faced by the advisers and decision-makers is a terrible one. Yet I do sincerely believe that the boys and their assistant coach will somehow be brought out into safety. It won't be at all easy - but I have hope that it can and will be done.

As you have said elsewhere, let us just hope that judicious assessments of the situation are made and that no unnecessary rush is entered into before the boys are ready. I am sure that every one of us here has his heart with those brave young men ...

[bluesofa]

How does that depth marker work?

As there are two guys standing next to it, I'm assuming it must be about 1.05m.

The centimetres appear clear, but without a reference to compare it to, surely you don't know it's 1 metre-odd?

Do those "E" marks indicate the number of metres somehow?

Or have I missed something obvious?

 

[webfact]

More generators and pumps donated to Luang cave rescue operation

 

CHIANG RAI, 5th July 2018 (NNT) – Private sector organizations have sponsored power generators and water pumps for the Luang Cave rescue operation, hoping to expedite the retrieval of Moo Pa Academy youth football team. 

Drainage of water from Luang Cave in Chiang Rai province is continuing in a determined effort to bring home the 12 boys and adult coach of Moo Pa Academy youth football team, who became trapped in the cave on June 23. 

The Department of Mineral Resources is overseeing the drainage operation and has received additional power generators from the private sector. Another 3-4 water pumps are to be added to speed up the operation. Authorities are picking up the pace of drainage as they anticipate monsoon rains in coming days, which could affect the pace of the rescue operation.

 

-- nnt 2018-07-05

[bdenner]

Quote

"Yesterday, they tried to take in mobile phones but the bag it was in broke," she said.

Surly they have hard wired communications established into the chamber by now enabling the boys to talk to their families. If not why not?

 

As for "Mobile Phones" = I don't think so!!!!

Edited July 5, 2018 by bdenner

[morrobay]

When they say rescuers on day 6 does that mean they have been inside cave for 6 days or do they return everyday to outside ?

[sweatalot]

" ... several kilometres of dangerously flooded tunnels..."

 

I think this is misguiding. I read before that most of the cave is not flooded, just some potholes with about 10 meters size 

 

[webfact]

Water continues to be drained out of cave

By Thai PBS

 

 

Water in Tham Luang cave continues to recede as irrigation experts and volunteers work around the clock to drain flood waters out as the operation to rescue the 12 young footballers and their coach enters its 12th day today.

 

Thai PBS news teams at the scene reported that Mr Korbchai Boon-arana, deputy director general of the Department of Disaster Prevention and Mitigation, had a meeting with officials concerned to assess progress in the water drainage.  He noted an evident drop in the water level in the cavern though he was not able to discuss specific amounts of the water drained out so far.

 

According to reports from the department, however, since Wednesday morning until around 8pm last night, the water level was declining at a rate of 1 centimeter an hour with the drainage capacity estimated to be 17,000 cubic meters a day.

 

Full story:  http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/water-continues-drained-cave/

 

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2018-07-05

 

[webfact]

Tham Luang operation commander: Unregistered volunteers negligently pumped water back to underground sources, obstructing attempts to drain cave asap. //Bangkok Post SMS

[flyingdoc]

Every good wish goes out to those involved in the rescue and the daunting decisions that lie ahead.

[MaiDong]

3 hours ago, bluesofa said:

How does that depth marker work?

As there are two guys standing next to it, I'm assuming it must be about 1.05m.

The centimetres appear clear, but without a reference to compare it to, surely you don't know it's 1 metre-odd?

Do those "E" marks indicate the number of metres somehow?

Or have I missed something obvious?

 

I think it's just a photo showing the Thai Navy going into the cave with a depth marker post, I don't think it's in any way meant to show the depth otherwise those blokes would be mighty short considering the post is rested on a rock just under the surface of the water, hence it showing a depth of 0.

[tr4der8888]

I know nothing about diving but the danger seems to be that the children panic whilst coming out - hence the suggestion they be tied up which would seem likely to cause panic.

 

Would not some form of calming medication be a better idea maybe so they sleep through the whole process?

 

Heart-rending story, be good when they are all safe.

[DanaDeLuxe]

4 hours ago, bluesofa said:

How does that depth marker work?

As there are two guys standing next to it, I'm assuming it must be about 1.05m.

The centimetres appear clear, but without a reference to compare it to, surely you don't know it's 1 metre-odd?

Do those "E" marks indicate the number of metres somehow?

Or have I missed something obvious?

 

 

I think it is in this position to monitor any changes in water height.

[bluesofa]

7 minutes ago, MaiDong said:

I think it's just a photo showing the Thai Navy going into the cave with a depth marker post, I don't think it's in any way meant to show the depth otherwise those blokes would be mighty short considering the post is rested on a rock just under the surface of the water, hence it showing a depth of 0.

Right, thanks.

I hadn't realised it was resting on a rock, I can't make it out. I had assumed (always dangerous!) it was on the ground. It all makes sense now.

 

[CGW]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

drainage capacity estimated to be 17,000 cubic meters a day.

Is that what they are pumping out, or is that what the maximum they hope to pump out with extra pumps? either way, its a lot of water to move, about ~4.5 million pints a day 

[tropo]

4 hours ago, webfact said:

One mother said she had still not been able to contact her boy.

 

"We can't send them messages yet," said Ratdao Chantrapul, 37, the mother of 14-year-old Prajak Sutham.

 

"Yesterday, they tried to take in mobile phones but the bag it was in broke," she said.

Do mobile phones pick up signals in the mountains, 800m below the surface?

[RBOP]

They need to get them out and quickly. This little nook they are sitting on is bound to flood once the rains really start. God speed to them all. 

[tropo]

7 minutes ago, CGW said:

3 hours ago, webfact said:

drainage capacity estimated to be 17,000 cubic meters a day.

Is that what they are pumping out, or is that what the maximum they hope to pump out with extra pumps? either way, its a lot of water to move, about ~4.5 million pints a day 

LOL> I didn't know people still used pints. Was that an imperial pint or  US pint?  If you insist, (using US pints) it's actually nearly 36 million pints a day, or 17 million litres a day, however, that's a very small volume of water when measuring flood waters.

[peperobi]

Good luck boys!!!

[Megasin1]

If you can take some reassurance for getting them out safely, it's that the Chang Rai governor is not affected, it seems by outside pressure and that the SEAL commander who is running the internal operation is implacable and stated early on that they will be brought out 'safely'.

Amongst all the hullaballoo, hocus pocus and absolute farce, but hidden quietly away are very serious and knowledgeable experts who will put the concerns of the boys well above everything else and will be risk assessing all options for all situations.

God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth, it is always best to use them in that proportion, or at least as a minimum try and engage brain before mouth.

[greenchair]

I never thought I would say this, but they really should let the international team help. It is such a pity that 1 of the divers has been sent home. He is one of the few people that could actually lead the kids out. Did he decide to leave ?or did they politely escort him to the gate? It seems that since the boys have been found the Thais have taken full control. The result is. ...

Whilst one team was pumping water out, another unknown team was pumping water right back into the cave ?. 

The telephone line plan was discarded so now a diver must travel all the way in and out just to call the boss about what they should do. ?taking many hours. And now we see the telephone that planned to go in the bag broke and they lost it. ?

It seems the situation is fast turning to chaos. 

The aren't coming they are here. Though I won't give up hope. I'm sure those 2 brits could have Brough out a few 1 by 1. 

But someone has this idea they must all go at the same time. 

If they did 3 a day starting with the strongest it would be a lot easier all around. 

[natway09]

Great so far. Comments by "darkside dog' very relevant . Do not rush to get them out unless or until

100% safe to do so.

Concerned about lack of communication between kids & parents & the fact that mobile phones container

not even waterproof,,,,,,, bit of a worry

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, Eligius said:

Well said, Darksidedog. I could not have said it better. The dilemma faced by the advisers and decision-makers is a terrible one. Yet I do sincerely believe that the boys and their assistant coach will somehow be brought out into safety. It won't be at all easy - but I have hope that it can and will be done.

As you have said elsewhere, let us just hope that judicious assessments of the situation are made and that no unnecessary rush is entered into before the boys are ready. I am sure that every one of us here has his heart with those brave young men ...

 

As you have said elsewhere, let us just hope that judicious assessments of the situation are made and that no unnecessary rush is entered into before the boys are ready. I am sure that every one of us here has his heart with those brave young men ...

 

Couldn't agree more, waiting for 4 months when the water will go way down certainly seems a long time / a very frustrating time, but better than losing even one of the boys because of a panic attack etc.

 

Let's face it can 7 days, even 14 days of learning to swim and learning how to use scuba equipment etc.,  and diving underwater swimming in total darkness and for a passage through hundred of meters of very past moving water, is IMHO quite risky.

 

Four months out of the perhaps 70 years of life is actually a small amount of time. No risk at all please.

 

Whatever, good luck. 

 

 

[Sheryl]

24 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I never thought I would say this, but they really should let the international team help. It is such a pity that 1 of the divers has been sent home. He is one of the few people that could actually lead the kids out. Did he decide to leave ?or did they politely escort him to the gate? It seems that since the boys have been found the Thais have taken full control. The result is. ...

Whilst one team was pumping water out, another unknown team was pumping water right back into the cave ?. 

The telephone line plan was discarded so now a diver must travel all the way in and out just to call the boss about what they should do. ?taking many hours. And now we see the telephone that planned to go in the bag broke and they lost it. ?

It seems the situation is fast turning to chaos. 

The aren't coming they are here. Though I won't give up hope. I'm sure those 2 brits could have Brough out a few 1 by 1. 

But someone has this idea they must all go at the same time. 

If they did 3 a day starting with the strongest it would be a lot easier all around. 

International teams (plural - many of them, many countries) are helping.

 

2 of the 3 UK expert cave rescuers  are still there, advising. They do so behind the scenes, quietly, but I think having been the ones to lead the way in they have plenty of respect and credibility.. And from interviews they definitely did not think bringing them out was easy nor something that could be done at once. Explicitly said, very tricky/dangerous. As did other experienced cave divers interviewed, and as the Thai Navy seals say. Basically everyone who has actually dived it, says it is very dangerous/difficult.

 

Only 1 of the 3 UK guys  went back, medical reason.

[Jingthing]

There is not "no risk" having them stay for four months.

The risks include --

 

Can they really guarantee even with aggressive water pumping that the rising waters won't reach their ledge?

 

Psychological damage, potentially severe and permanent (but unlikely to be fatal in the shorter term)

 

Sickness / infections / wildlife (potentially fatal)

 

Are these risks less than diving them out with high water levels? I guess probably but don't envy the people making these decisions. If they really can't be sure the water won't flood them out though, I think that the risky dives become possibly the ONLY choice.

 

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There is not "no risk" having them stay for four months.

The risks include --

 

Can they really guarantee even with aggressive water pumping that the rising waters won't reach their ledge?

 

Psychological damage, potentially severe and permanent (but unlikely to be fatal in the shorter term)

 

Sickness / infections / wildlife (potentially fatal)

 

Are these risks less than diving them out with high water levels? I guess probably but don't envy the people making these decisions. If they really can't be sure the water won't flood them out though, I think that the risky dives become possibly the ONLY choice.

 

 

Point taken, but I wonder whether drilling down to get them out is still being considered, one report said drilling 400 metres had started. I wonder if the drilling is still in progress? 

 

It would also be a long journey in a capsule, and perhaps worthwhile to make the drill hole big enough for a capsule holding one small framed adult hugging one teen boy. 

 

Travelling at a sensible speed, total of 400 metres, perhaps total time 20 - 30 minutes (I don't know how to calculate that, just a wild guess).

 

Better than several stints of being underwater in total dark with not much training or experience, for several long periods of time and very severe risk of drowning if something goes wrong with the equipment, a boy panics etc., possibly also creating higher risk for the seal. 

 

Not an easy problem.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by scorecard

[ttrd]

5 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Very tricky dilemma and I am glad I am not the one making the call. God forbid that having come this far, there are casualties in trying to get them out hastily. I hope that the advice from the UK cave rescuers is listened to above all others. If they believe it is safe to dive them out, I would trust them. Safety has to come first.

Totally agree as long as the lads present health condition will last its no need to rush. The idea of performing world fastest diving course seems to have appeared due to lack of plausible and safe ideas. No need to risk their lives on the last mile more than neccessary. Safety First!  

[mike324]

I wonder how much more room they have if water increases inside. Could they go further in? Also it would be interesting to see the scans of the tunnels. Anyone scanning the cave from above?

[Shadychris]

1 hour ago, tropo said:

 however, that's a very small volume of water when measuring flood waters.

Yup - I can drink that much beer over a weekend easy.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Shadychris