Another change for U.S. Citizens.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

It is not just in this case -- The Embassies/Consulates of the US Department of State worldwide will not provide any notarized statement as to the truthfulness or veracity of any document presented to it under any circumstances including documents issued by the US federal government itself.

The US Department of State will not provide any notarized statement attesting to the truthful nature of any document (even one originating from an Organ of the US Government!). That is very interesting, I did not know that. Thank you for providing this essential but off-topic clarification.

But I did not say the US Department of State would attest to the truthfulness of any document. I posted that authority issuing the income affidavit in this case, is the US Consul, and that is why I specifically used two commas.

Now If another Consulate, say Australia (just for example) asks for proof of income prior to issuing an Income Affidavit to one of its nationals this still does not prove anything. Bank statements, pension payment slips, and stock portfolios, etc., can be faked easily . Surely in this purely hypothetical example The Australian Consul should be able to link to a Centrelink database to confirm receipt of at least a public pension but Thai Immigration can hardly be expect to follow up on the abilities of the various Consuls representing the vast cadre of all the various Nationalities of all expats here in Thailand.

As the only real proof of income is ability to pay soon we may see increased financial requirements to retire in Thailand. I.E., higher levels of funds held seasoned in Thai banks, membership in some kind of a program resembling Elite or “my second home Malaysia”, and most surely a health insurance requirement. Aged low-income Western “Farangs” scrounging by on a pittance are not wanted and in the future will not even be tolerated and driven out.

Edited July 12, 2018 by ChiangMaiLightning2143

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

The only real proof is ability to pay. Soon we MAY see increased financial requirements to retire in Thailand. Higher levels of funds held seasoned in Thai banks, membership in some kind of a program maybe like Elite or “my second home Malaysia”, and surely a health insurance requirement. Aged low income Western “Farangs”scrounging by on a pittance are no longer wanted and will be driven out.

Do not agree- noone will be driven out- Thai Immigration may increase the income requirements but as usual they will exempt (grandfather) people already on an extension from the new requirements.  There are people in Thailand right now who need show only 200K or 500K for their financial requirements. New retirees would have to show any higher income levels.

  Any Health Insurance requirement would be the same and since medical care is relatively inexpensive in Thailand- most aged retirees either pay out of pocket and can afford to do so.  Most insurance policies don't cover after a certain age anyway as retirees are covered by Medicare or National Health in their own countries and return there for cat strophic illness

 

I wouldn't be too quick to assume there are many retirees living in Thailand on a pittance.  Most of the people I know are well fixed and have access to amounts that allow them to lead the life they desire.  If Thai Immigration was concerned about retirees coming to Thailand long term without sufficient funds- they would have already raised the requirements for new retirees.

[JLCrab]

Regarding the long ramble above whether with 2 commas or not, the Thai Immigration authorities seem to be well aware of the US State Department world-wide policies on non-authentication of documents and, at least for now at the HQ level, seem to well be in acceptance of that. What any given Thai IMM office chooses to do on corroboration of any income affidavit statement is and has always been up-to-them.

 

... and the current Police Order regs only mention 'evidence' of income, not 'proof'.

Edited July 12, 2018 by JLCrab

[55Jay]

1 hour ago, Ricohoc said:

Interesting reading.

 

Last conversation I had with officials at the US Embassy was that this affidavit arrangement was made between the US and Thailand.  Yes, the Thai immigration officer has his/her discretion to override and ask for proof, but it seems like our embassy and consulate would have notified all US citizens of this change.  Looks like it's time to drop them an email.

 

Until it becomes some Kingdom-wide edict, I'll view this as isolated to one instance or one immigration office.

Yup.  The OP oozes disgruntled aloofness.  I can't imagine that does him any favors when interacting with Thai Immigration; or any other country's immigration for that matter. 

[NancyL]

The U.S. Embassy/Consulate cannot "look up" someone's Social Security income and I suspect the Australian Embassy can't dive into Centrelink's database either.  And they definitely can't access bank account or investment information in someone's home countries.   They're not the CIA.  It's the job of Thai Imm. to enforce the rules of Thai Imm.

 

The U.S. Consulate has always reminded its citizens that Imm. has the right to ask for further proof beyond the "Income Letter".  They issue this warning with more vigor when they suspect that someone may be falsifying the number, as in someone they had to visit a few months earlier in a gov't hospital who told them they were going to have problems paying their medical bill, yet claimed an income of $3000/month on their Income Letter.  They might also remind them that it's a crime to swear a false oath to a federal official. Beyond that there is nothing more they can do since it's their job to verify someone's identity and attest that the person was in "sound mind" when they signed the form.  This is why they can't supply an Income Letter for someone in a comma who can only make a thumb print, even when that person's income can be proven with 1099s, etc.   

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

Regarding the long ramble above whether with 2 commas or not, the Thai Immigration authorities seem to be well aware of the US State Department world-wide policies on non-authentication of documents and, at least for now at the HQ level, seem to well be in acceptance of that. What any given Thai IMM office chooses to do on corroboration of any income affidavit statement is and has always been up-to-them.
 
... and the current Police Order regs only mention 'evidence' of income, not 'proof'.

Evidence is a synonym for proof. I’d reckon more scrutiny and increased requirements will be coming.


proof pro͞of noun evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement. synonyms: evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification, documentation, validation, attestation, substantiation , “proof of ownership"

[JLCrab]

Also when some non-US citizens say that Americans can obtain their income affidavit without any proof, that is a bit silly since the affidavit does not claim to offer any proof in fact it says:

 

The U.S. Embassy does not guarantee the contents of my own sworn statement. 

[JLCrab]

1 minute ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

Evidence is a synonym for proof. I’d reckon more scrutiny and increased requirements will be coming.

proof pro͞of noun evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement. synonyms: evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification, documentation, validation, attestation, substantiation , “proof of ownership"

 

Yeah Yeah Yeah go to tell it to the IMM Police.

[NancyL]

Just talked with an American friend who went to Chiang Mai Imm today for his one-year retirement extensions, not his first.  He wasn't asked for any "proof" of income besides the Income Letter from the Consulate.  He used a visa agent, one of the well-known visa agents with an office in town.

[hml367]

As was posted previously, the income affidavit for U.S. citizens was put into place because the U.S. Consulates cannot verify income.

 

However, if people are so determined to do it, income verification for U.S. citizens (not sure of non-citizens with income from the U.S.) can be done through the U.S. State Department, Office of Authentications.  The problem is the time involved and all the requirements the State Department wants to make the authentication.  I would think that is the reason the income affidavit came about.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Just talked with an American friend who went to Chiang Mai Imm today for his one-year retirement extensions, not his first.  He wasn't asked for any "proof" of income besides the Income Letter from the Consulate.  He used a visa agent, one of the well-known visa agents with an office in town.

 

Well, at least we can assume from that that the "visa agent" applicants for retirement extensions in CM aren't all being hassled for extra income verification, beyond the standard income affidavit. 

 

I'm pretty sure there were at least 1 or 2 prior posts in this thread of regular retirement extension applicants of late at CM who also said they hadn't been hassled, unlike the OP.

 

[sfokevin]

18 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Just talked with an American friend who went to Chiang Mai Imm today for his one-year retirement extensions, not his first.  He wasn't asked for any "proof" of income besides the Income Letter from the Consulate.  He used a visa agent, one of the well-known visa agents with an office in town.

It looks as though it was just an acorn that has fallen apon the OPs head...

Edited July 12, 2018 by sfokevin

[jmd8800]

11 pages later... and nothing more from the OP I'd guess this was just someone wanting to windup the forum.

 

OP's source of this information was from Assist Thai Visa services. If anyone is a customer of Assist Thai Visa could you call them and ask if this statement made by the OP is true. 

[poanoi]

10 hours ago, NancyL said:

You need a new income letter. I'm surprised the Embassy people didn't question this boo-boo.

why tho ?

it is the policy of US embassy to never question the 'scouts honor' boo-boo

 

[bubba]

When I see posts with statements that OP 'idman' stated such as "in typical Thai fashion" and "Yeah, it's great to be a Falang trying to live here" and "Sod these <deleted> Thai Immigration people and their bull...<deleted> rules they make up to frustrate us", I begin to imagine that attitude could have been a contributing factor to his experience.
 

Regarding: "My lease is up in March 2019 and unless things change I am on my way to Phnom Penh". That is probably a good idea for 'idman'. No doubt he will find Cambodia to be much better sorted out regarding bureaucratic efficiency than Thailand, BS-free and no corruption as well as a bonus..

[sfokevin]

3 minutes ago, bubba said:

When I see posts with statements that OP 'idman' stated such as "in typical Thai fashion" and "Yeah, it's great to be a Falang trying to live here" and "Sod these <deleted> Thai Immigration people and their bull...<deleted> rules they make up to frustrate us", I begin to imagine that attitude could have been a contributing factor to his experience.
 

Regarding: "My lease is up in March 2019 and unless things change I am on my way to Phnom Penh". That is probably a good idea for 'idman'. No doubt he will find Cambodia to be much better sorted out regarding bureaucratic efficiency than Thailand, BS-free and no corruption as well as a bonus..

 

http://wiki.c2.com/?ParableOfTheTwoVillages

[poanoi]

3 hours ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

.

Now If another Consulate, say Australia (just for example) asks for proof of income prior to issuing an Income Affidavit to one of its nationals this still does not prove anything. Bank statements, pension payment slips, and stock portfolios, etc., can be faked easily .

disagree, you may be a computer expert and have experience with

counterfeit dollar production, but i sure aint,

it would never come to my mind trying to fool a swedish embassy

with fake swedish documents, they know them too well,

it would be very easy by comparison to trick thai authorities tho,

that got zero experience of them, and cant even read it

Edited July 12, 2018 by poanoi

[JLCrab]

The income affidavit from the US Embassy - Bangkok is no proof of anything. It states:

The U.S. Embassy does not guarantee the contents of my own sworn statement.

 

If Thai IMM accepts that as of now as sufficient for issuing an extension of stay,, you should go complain to them.
 

[moe666]

Nothing new about this and not a rule change, at the end of the list of requirements it states the I/o can ask for any information he or she thinks relevant 

[moe666]

26 minutes ago, EL159 said:

All this is very good. Lets say "bye bye, go home" to liar Americans who "swear" on the "constitution" that they have this or that amount of income and get a sworn affidavit letter with no proof. The rest of us have to prouce proof of income to get our visa letters, so why the hell should Americans get away with different?

 

Good riddance. If you dont have the money, go home, good riddance to the bigmouths with precisely that, big mouths and no income!

Do not be angry at your own government it is up to them what they will provide. By the way of the documents you provide how many   are forgeries easy to do. By the way when I raise my hand I realize i am subject to 10 years confinement for lying.

[poanoi]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

Just talked with an American friend who went to Chiang Mai Imm today for his one-year retirement extensions, not his first.  He wasn't asked for any "proof" of income besides the Income Letter from the Consulate.  He used a visa agent, one of the well-known visa agents with an office in town.

the difference being that hiring an agent cost several times more,

and the IO dont question it since they get a cut of the agent cost

[poanoi]

6 minutes ago, moe666 said:

Do not be angry at your own government it is up to them what they will provide. By the way of the documents you provide how many   are forgeries easy to do. By the way when I raise my hand I realize i am subject to 10 years confinement for lying.

 

7 minutes ago, moe666 said:

Do not be angry at your own government it is up to them what they will provide. By the way of the documents you provide how many   are forgeries easy to do. By the way when I raise my hand I realize i am subject to 10 years confinement for lying.

disagree, you may be a computer expert and have experience with

counterfeit dollar production, but i sure aint,

it would never come to my mind trying to fool a swedish embassy

with fake swedish documents, they know them too well,

it would be very easy by comparison to trick thai authorities tho,

that got zero experience of them, and cant even read it.

 

in contrast beside the issue of blushing in shame,

i cant think of an easier way to cheat than to raise my hand

and lie through my teeth to someone who hasnt even got the right

to question me if i lie

[hml367]

19 minutes ago, poanoi said:

 

disagree, you may be a computer expert and have experience with

counterfeit dollar production, but i sure aint,

it would never come to my mind trying to fool a swedish embassy

with fake swedish documents, they know them too well,

it would be very easy by comparison to trick thai authorities tho,

that got zero experience of them, and cant even read it.

 

in contrast beside the issue of blushing in shame,

i cant think of an easier way to cheat than to raise my hand

and lie through my teeth to someone who hasnt even got the right

to question me if i lie

I think the Notary can refuse to notarize the affidavit if the Notary has reason to doubt the truth of the statement.

 

This is from the Notary Public Code of Professional Responsibility::

[CMBob]

Twelve pages of ramblings because of a single report claiming CM Immigration has changed its usual procedure when presented with an income affidavit from the US citizens.  Unless and until more reports come in detailing the same treatment, best to move on and presume no change has occurred.

 

Once in a while, a given immigration officer seems to ask for something different.  A couple of years ago, while renewing my annual extension at CM Immigration, the officer asked me for a photocopy of every single filled-out page of my passport (which was a lot of pages).  I asked her if she really wanted that and, when she said "yes", I reached into my folder and handed her a complete set of my passport pages (I take the kitchen sink with me as occasionally they will ask for something unusual).  Was this a change of policy?  Obviously not.  As to why she asked for it, god/buddha only knows.  The single event, however, didn't justify me in making a post here on TV titled  "Another Change For Annual Extenders."

[poanoi]

3 minutes ago, hml367 said:

I think the Notary can refuse to notarize the affidavit if the Notary has reason to doubt the truth of the statement.

 

This is from the Notary Public Code of Professional Responsibility::

might not apply to affidavits: as published a few pages ago,

one scout signed he made 22.000 dollar a day, or was it month ?

the embassy couldnt care less, they signed.

as has also been documented, US embassy has zero ability

or responsibility to check claims, alas they just sign

[jenny2017]

  Yeah, it's great to be a Falang trying to live here.  Sod these <deleted> Thai Immigration people and their bull...<deleted> rules they make up to frustrate us.  My lease is up in March 2019 and unless things change I am on my way to Phnom Penh.  Newly listed as the 5th. best place to retire in the world.

 

 Honestly speaking, I never thought that it's fair that Americans can go to their embassy, lie to them about their monthly income and then receive a one-year extension, very often only based on numbers that aren't true.

Thai Immigration officers do not make these rules, they have to enforce them, which is a huge difference. If their boss tells them to follow these rules, you can hardly blame them, can you? 

 

 

  

 

  

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by jenny2017

[jenny2017]

1 hour ago, EL159 said:

All this is very good. Lets say "bye bye, go home" to liar Americans who "swear" on the "constitution" that they have this or that amount of income and get a sworn affidavit letter with no proof. The rest of us have to prouce proof of income to get our visa letters, so why the hell should Americans get away with different?

 

Good riddance. If you dont have the money, go home, good riddance to the bigmouths with precisely that, big mouths and no income!

Thank you for telling the truth. Why do we others have to follow the same rules that others could easily bypass? 

[NancyL]

Re-read the OP.  Hmm, seems that the source of info was Assist Thai Visa, not the OP himself witnessing "everyone" at Imm. being asked for proof of income.  Perhaps the folks at Assist Thai Visa had their doubts about the veracity of their (potential) customer's Income Letter and didn't want to be caught out in case he was asked to provide proof.  The fact that he would actually consider Cambodia as an alternative to Thailand would indicate that maybe coming up with evidence of income of 65,000 baht/month might just be a problem.  Perhaps there were other clues, like a Moon Muang Soi 7 guesthouse address.

[gk10002000]

7 hours ago, sfokevin said:

Of I were you... When returning to Thailand pick the Immigration queue with the prettiest Thai of your persuasion and after they stamp you in ask them if you can take a photo with them while you are holding your cash... 

There have been several over the years at BKK that were quite attractive, some even smiled and were pleasant and I would have normally have asked them out or for their phone number.  But after a 13 hour flight, a 2 hour layover in Taiwan and then another 3 hour flight

[cyberfarang]

6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Do not agree- noone will be driven out- Thai Immigration may increase the income requirements but as usual they will exempt (grandfather) people already on an extension from the new requirements.  There are people in Thailand right now who need show only 200K or 500K for their financial requirements. New retirees would have to show any higher income levels.

  Any Health Insurance requirement would be the same and since medical care is relatively inexpensive in Thailand- most aged retirees either pay out of pocket and can afford to do so.  Most insurance policies don't cover after a certain age anyway as retirees are covered by Medicare or National Health in their own countries and return there for cat strophic illness

 

I wouldn't be too quick to assume there are many retirees living in Thailand on a pittance.  Most of the people I know are well fixed and have access to amounts that allow them to lead the life they desire.  If Thai Immigration was concerned about retirees coming to Thailand long term without sufficient funds- they would have already raised the requirements for new retirees.

Immigration are like god, they work in mysterious ways.

 

A lot of westerners I know like to boast about their wealth, yet are the types that will steal toilet rolls from public toilets and take their own snacks into restaurants. Believe me, I really know people like that.

 

I doubt there are many retirees still on the 200000 baht per year retirement scheme, probably most are dead now and why immigration is not too bothered about them. Who knows what will happen in the future? The sky`s the limit, the goalposts can be moved at anytime, grandfathering is not guaranteed.

 

Medical care is not so cheap for westerners in Thailand, especially for foreigners. In most cases medical insurance rates are well over the budgets for retirees and for serious illnesses, hospital bills can run into the Btmillions. 

 

I have no doubts there are wealthy expats living in Thailand, but I bet these are only a small minority, whereas most are living on tight budgeted funds or incomes or doing somethings illegally to financially support themselves.

Edited July 12, 2018 by cyberfarang