A crime or a right? Some Danish Muslims defy face veil ban

[webfact]

A crime or a right? Some Danish Muslims defy face veil ban

By Emil Nielson

 

A police officer speaks with Ayah, 37, during a demonstration against the Danish face veil ban in Copenhagen, Denmark, August 1, 2018. REUTERS/Andrew Kelly

 

COPENHAGEN (Reuters) - When a ban on the wearing of face veils in public took effect in Denmark on Wednesday, Sabina did not leave her niqab at home.

 

Instead, she joined around 1,300 Muslims and non-Muslims alike in a march through the capital Copenhagen to protest at what they saw as an infringement on freedom of religion and expression.

 

The Danish parliament enacted the face ban in May, joining France and some other European countries to uphold what some politicians say are secular and democratic values.

 

But Sabina, 21, who is studying to be a teacher, joined forces with other Muslim women who wear the veil to form Kvinder I Dialog (Women In Dialogue) to protest and raise awareness about why women should be allowed to express their identity in that way.

 

Wednesday's protesting niqab wearers were joined by non-niqab-wearing Muslim women and non-Muslim Danes in face cover.

 

“We need to send a signal to the government that we will not bow to discrimination and a law that specifically targets a religious minority,” Sabina, said as she marched on Wednesday, asking not to be further identified for fear of harassment.

 

Reuters spent time with Sabina and other niqab-garbed women earlier this week for a closer look at their concerns.

 

"I won't take my niqab off. If I must take it off I want to do it because it is a reflection of my own choice," Sabina said.

 

"Everybody wants to define what Danish values are," said Meryem, 20, who was born in Denmark to Turkish parents and has been wearing the niqab since before meeting her husband, who supports her right to wear it but feels life could be easier without.

 

"I believe that you have to integrate yourself in society, that you should get an education and so forth. But I don't think wearing a niqab means you can't engage yourself in Danish values," said Meryem, who has a place to study molecular medicine at Aarhus University.

 

Just before heading to Wednesday's demonstration, Ayah, 37, told Reuters: “This is not the Denmark that we know. I can't go out when I want to...I have kids, how do I pick them up from the bus and the school and the train?

 

"It’s just absurd. I can’t to the things I love to do any more. I can’t go to the museum and the beach, can’t go out and take photos. I’m just going to be a prisoner in my home. But I prefer to be a prisoner in my home to taking off my niqab." 

 

Aicha, 29, said: "When I was little, people didn’t talk about colour and religion but now the last 10 years people are going crazy talking about colour of the skin and hating each other." 

 

Under the law, police will be able to instruct women to remove their veils or order them to leave public areas. Justice Minister Soren Pape Poulsen said officers would fine them and tell them to go home.

 

Fines will range from 1,000 Danish crowns ($160) for a first offence to 10,000 crowns for a fourth violation.

 

"I feel this law legitimises acts of hatred but, on the other hand, I feel people have become more aware of what is going on. I get more smiles on the street and people are asking me more questions," said Ayah, 37.

 

Mathias Vidas Olsen, who makes reproductions of Viking age jewellery, is supporting the campaign against the ban by making special bracelets and giving the proceeds to Kvinder I Dialog.

 

"I'm not for or against the niqab," the 29-year-old Copenhagen man said. "I'm for the right of the people to wear whatever they want whether they be a Muslim or a punk.

 

"I see this as the government reaching in to places they don't belong and as a cheap hit on an already stigmatized group to score cheap political points."

 

For a photo essay, click on https://reut.rs/2v1ZkR1

 

(Additional reporting by Andrew Kelly, Jacob Grønholt-Pedersen and Stine Jacobsen; editing by Mark Heinrich)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-08-02

[ezzra]

20 hours ago, mok199 said:

 

Well, for denmark and other countries who took in muslims being benevolent and PC thinking they are going to assimilate into the general public rude awakening is in store for them, and this is just the beginning, with more coming and hundreds of thousands of african economic migrants swamping Italy, Spain, Greece and other countries the world as we knew is no more...

[z42]

This is appalling. The law is certainly in the public interest and in line with Danish customs and values i'd guess.

 

The fact these people feel aggrieved by it is simply too bad. Muslims around the world get by without having to cover their faces while still wearing appropriate religious dress.

 

I hope the Danish public's backlash against this group's bleating is swift and damning

[Bluespunk]

Just as I believe no one should be forced to wear a veil, I believe no one should be forced not to wear one either.

 

“Staying silent is like a slow growing cancer to the soul and a trait of a true coward. There is nothing intelligent about not standing up for yourself. You may not win every battle. However, everyone will at least know what you stood for—YOU.”

 

Shannon L. Alder

[Voodoochile]

7 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Just as I believe no one should be forced to wear a veil, I believe no one should be forced not to wear one either.

 

“Staying silent is like a slow growing cancer to the soul and a trait of a true coward. There is nothing intelligent about not standing up for yourself. You may not win every battle. However, everyone will at least know what you stood for—YOU.”

 

Shannon L. Alder

Standing up for yourself and provoking others are two very different things.

when you are a guest somewhere you respect local traditions and rules you do not try to impose yours.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, Voodoochile said:

Standing up for yourself and provoking others are two very different things.

when you are a guest somewhere you respect local traditions and rules you do not try to impose yours.

And who exactly are these women, defending their right to choose, imposing the veil upon?

 

Oh and if you read the article you will see some of those interviewed are Danish born citizens.

 

Not “guests” (whatever that means) but citizens defending their right to choose. 

[Lungstib]

55 minutes ago, webfact said:

Instead, she joined around 1,300 Muslims and non-Muslims alike in a march through the capital Copenhagen to protest at what they saw as an infringement on freedom of religion and expression.

This is going to become a common theme in Europe where several countries fear becoming overwhelmed by immigrants who hold a completely different set of values to the locals. But when discussing these infringements on freedom of religion we need to ask just how many Muslim countries are offering these to people living and working in their countries. And, of course, there wont be any such discussion in Saudi, UAE, Qatar, etc, because they never take any immigrants, only cheap labour from other Muslim countries. Troubled times are ahead.

[Voodoochile]

14 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

And who exactly are these women, defending their right to choose, imposing the veil upon?

 

Oh and if you read the article you will see some of those interviewed are Danish born citizens.

 

Not “guests” (whatever that means) but citizens defending their right to choose. 

Having a passport doesn't change your race, culture, etc. it makes you a what I like to call "administrative citizen" but to be part of a country or a culture there is a lot more to it then a little book with your picture in it.

As a white european even if I were born and raised in lyberia (and passport) I wouldn't say i was an African. 

Give me a break and wake up..."Danish born citezens" who want nothing of Danish culture but rather impose their own and slowly will try to bring the country back to Barbarian times and laws like sharia law.

 

these people should not have been given citizenship in the first place that's where most European countries went wrong. And if you ask me if they want to keep their veil there citizenship should be revoked.

[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, Voodoochile said:

Having a passport doesn't change your race, culture, etc. it makes you a what I like to call "administrative citizen" but to be part of a country or a culture there is a lot more to it then a little book with your picture in it.

As a white european even if I were born and raised in lyberia (and passport) I wouldn't say i was an African. 

Give me a break and wake up..."Danish born citezens" who want nothing of Danish culture but rather impose their own and slowly will try to bring the country back to Barbarian times and laws like sharia law.

 

these people should not have been given citizenship in the first place that's where most European countries went wrong. And if you ask me if they want to keep their veil there citizenship should be revoked.

The women born in Denmark and having Danish citizenship are Danish. 

 

To judge citizenship on faith, ethnicity or colour is wrong. 

 

All citizens have the right to protest their rights. 

 

To deny this right on the on the grounds of colour or faith is also wrong. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Bluespunk

[ChrisY1]

37 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

And who exactly are these women, defending their right to choose, imposing the veil upon?

 

Oh and if you read the article you will see some of those interviewed are Danish born citizens.

 

Not “guests” (whatever that means) but citizens defending their right to choose. 

The UK "guests"....that were the religious minority...have now become the religious majority.....the west remain fearful of this group.

[Voodoochile]

7 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The women born in Denmark and having Danish citizenship are Danish. 

 

To judge citizenship on faith, ethnicity or colour is wrong. 

 

All citizens have the right to protest their rights. 

 

To deny this right on the on the grounds of colour or faith is also wrong. 

They are not because they do not wish to be Danish and live by danish or even European culture and because again they try to impose their own.

[BobBKK]

When in Rome...

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The women born in Denmark and having Danish citizenship are Danish. 

 

To judge citizenship on faith, ethnicity or colour is wrong. 

 

All citizens have the right to protest their rights. 

 

To deny this right on the on the grounds of colour or faith is also wrong. 

 

In my view they do not have the right to go against cultural norms. This includes pooing in the street, making loud noises after 10pm and wearing something akin to a mask over their face. In their own homes, I agree, do what they want. I find that mask a little frightening I must say.

 

Danes also have the RIGHT to defend their cultural paradigm and norms.

[bristolboy]

12 minutes ago, ChrisY1 said:

The UK "guests"....that were the religious minority...have now become the religious majority.....the west remain fearful of this group.

There are about 3 million Muslims in the UK. The UK total population is about 65 million. Your statement is only valid if at least 95 percent of Britons were atheists. (Which I wouldn't put past them.)

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, Voodoochile said:

They are not because they do not wish to be Danish and live by danish or even European culture and because again they try to impose their own.

The same as when western Europe struggled with religious wars: certain acts of religious expression were not accepted, but all were western European.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the purpose of the protest, but bluespunk is very right that they have every right to protest, and that judging citizenship based on religion, ethnicity and/or colour is simply wrong.

[arithai12]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

Just as I believe no one should be forced to wear a veil, I believe no one should be forced not to wear one either.

 

“Staying silent is like a slow growing cancer to the soul and a trait of a true coward. There is nothing intelligent about not standing up for yourself. You may not win every battle. However, everyone will at least know what you stood for—YOU.”

 

Shannon L. Alder

I am sure you can see that we are not talking about a veil here but about a burqa, which completely covers the face. And I am sure  you are able to see that this is not only about religious belief (btw, subject to interpretation as most muslim countries do not require women to wear a burqa), but about safety and respect for the general society and national customs of a country.

 

[jonclark]

I just do ot understand why women want to dresss as ninjas?

 

Bruse Lee / Chuck Norris fantasies perhaps? 

[Hayduke]

 

There is no Islamic requirement for women to cover their face. However they are, according to religious teachings, expected to cover their head. Covering the face is tribalism and not religion. As such, secular governments are under no ‘freedom of religion’ obligation to allow it.

 

 

[kotsak]

2 minutes ago, jonclark said:

I just do ot understand why women want to dresss as ninjas?

 

Bruse Lee / Chuck Norris fantasies perhaps? 

 

It's called conditioning..

 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Hayduke said:

 

There is no Islamic requirement for women to cover their face. However they are, according to religious teachings, expected to cover their head. Covering the face is tribalism and not religion. As such, secular governments are under no ‘freedom of religion’ obligation to allow it.

 

 

Your religion and its requirements are based on beliefs. You can believe what you like. This is why  the Constitution of the USA has provisions to keep the government from making judgments about the validity of  religious beliefs. It would entangle government in a hopeless mess. Try to remember it's all made up and you can fantasize and privately legislate your own religious laws.

That doesn't mean the face veil can't be banned on other grounds. Security comes to mind.

[cornishcarlos]

1 hour ago, Voodoochile said:

when you are a guest somewhere you respect local traditions and rules you do not try to impose yours.

 

That doesn't seem to apply to Muslims... They can do what they like in any European country, as those governments are too frightened of "offending" anyone of that religion..

 

What about when you are a citizen of that country ??? 

Edited August 2, 2018 by cornishcarlos

[Ks45672]

Arab traditions can stay there

If the Danish people don't want people dressed as ninjas wandering around then they are free to ban it

 

 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, hyku1147 said:

Where are the objective social scientists? They are hiding in their classrooms. News flash! Preserving culture by insisting that immigrants assimilate is not racism.

 

Scientific Method:

"noun

noun: scientific method; plural noun: scientific methods

1. a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

 

Objective social scientist would point out to you that cultures are constantly changing and that trying to establish what is a standard is a fool's mission. And if you're posting from the UK, maybe you should relax and treat yourself to a nice plate of curry.

[Dellboy218]

Forget religious values.  The UK spent millions on CCTV to improve security.  These measures are completely negated by face coverings, ALL face coverings.  Several crimes have been committed in London by niqab wearing criminals. 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, ChrisY1 said:

The UK "guests"....that were the religious minority...have now become the religious majority.....the west remain fearful of this group.

Please quote statistics backing that ridiculous assertion on religious majorities in the U.K.  . 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

55 minutes ago, Voodoochile said:

They are not because they do not wish to be Danish and live by danish or even European culture and because again they try to impose their own.

Those quoted in the story would seem to contradict that statement.

[Bluespunk]

53 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

In my view they do not have the right to go against cultural norms. This includes pooing in the street, making loud noises after 10pm and wearing something akin to a mask over their face. In their own homes, I agree, do what they want. I find that mask a little frightening I must say.

 

Danes also have the RIGHT to defend their cultural paradigm and norms.

If someone chooses to wear a veil then they should be allowed to do so. 

 

I do not find it frightening. 

 

I find the fact that the state would take the choice to do so away much more troubling. 

[Bluespunk]

52 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

I am sure you can see that we are not talking about a veil here but about a burqa, which completely covers the face. And I am sure  you are able to see that this is not only about religious belief (btw, subject to interpretation as most muslim countries do not require women to wear a burqa), but about safety and respect for the general society and national customs of a country.

 

The story and protest is about the right to choose to wear a veil. 

 

As are my posts and those quoting me.  

Edited August 2, 2018 by Bluespunk

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

And who exactly are these women, defending their right to choose, imposing the veil upon?

 

Oh and if you read the article you will see some of those interviewed are Danish born citizens.

 

Not “guests” (whatever that means) but citizens defending their right to choose. 

 

I admire people who are willing to be jailed for their strongly held beliefs. Just as I understand why a country would not allow it's citizens to conduct their public affairs behind a mask. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Will enough people being jailed deter them away from their "strongly held beliefs" or will the society acquiesce in time. Seems like only the first or second chapter of this story.

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I admire people who are willing to be jailed for their strongly held beliefs. Just as I understand why a country would not allow it's citizens to conduct their public affairs behind a mask. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Will enough people being jailed deter them away from their "strongly held beliefs" or will the society acquiesce in time. Seems like only the first or second chapter of this story.

It’s a veil not a mask.