UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

You think you can do cross border trade without a border? Not even under WTO rules.

And maybe the UK wants to check who gets into the country. I remember something in the Brexit propaganda about taking back control.....

Yes if all concerned parties have the will to do it. We don't want a wall but the EU and RI have put all sort of obstacles in the way of a no wall agreement, so let them build it. There will only be one sufferer RI.

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

You think you can do cross border trade without a border? Not even under WTO rules.

And maybe the UK wants to check who gets into the country. I remember something in the Brexit propaganda about taking back control.....

I think you are getting ahead of yourself at the moment and slightly changing tack, I said the EU want a border, Ireland and the UK do not, it would on that basis seem that never the twain shall meet. None of the sides look to be able to compromise at all, so it would appear there is only one way to go. BTW, the UK has offered a solution to the cross border trade, but like all other proposals it has fallen on deaf ears. Remember everything is possible if you want it to happen, but if everything you offer to the other side is being rejected out of their own agenda it leaves little or no choice but to walk.

 

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, aright said:

Yes if all concerned parties have the will to do it. We don't want a wall but the EU and RI have put all sort of obstacles in the way of a no wall agreement, so let them build it. There will only be one sufferer RI.

So you want zero tariff trade? Under WTO rules you would have to offer that to all WTO members. Consequence: forget about any manufacturing in the UK because you cannot compete anymore.

And even with zero tariff trade you still need to administrate it. Where do you do that? Yes, border.

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, david555 said:

You could also see all from U.K. side to like breaking up the E.U. such could happen if they give U.K. what they want : all the benefits from a membership without being a member ….so that makes it a blocked situation 

The UK leaving your club could be likened to Tiger Woods withdrawing his membership and leaving his golf club, I sure a lot of other members would follow him.???

[david555]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

The UK leaving your club could be likened to Tiger Woods withdrawing his membership and leaving his golf club, I sure a lot of other members would follow him.???

And is it happening …? how many are following the U.K. leaving …..I am scary to the end now ..?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

And is it happening …? how many are following the U.K. leaving …..I am scary to the end now ..?

You had better pray the UK doesn't make a success of it or, "you will be afraid, you will be very afraid" ?

[Jip99]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

The UK leaving your club could be likened to Tiger Woods withdrawing his membership and leaving his golf club, I sure a lot of other members would follow him.???

 

 

 

.... and a lot of his fellow members would have the good grace to wish him well - whether they followed or not.

[david555]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

You had better pray the UK doesn't make a success of it or, "you will be afraid, you will be very afraid" ?

Whishing you the best , we or at least I have no problems with the U.K. having a good result for themselves 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

Whishing you the best , we or at least I have no problems with the U.K. having a good result for themselves 

Where are you from david, I have no problems with Europe, I have had some wonderful holidays there. But when or if I ever return I may be sporting my new blue shiny passport.?

[david555]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

Where are you from david, I have no problems with Europe, I have had some wonderful holidays there. But when or if I ever return I may be sporting my new blue shiny passport.?

We insist of having that blue one …., as it warns us for the renegades in future when controlling your visa...?

BTW I am from the United States of Europe ….(I am little bit futuristic ..)

 

.?.."Tiger Woods …." what else they go find out ...oh those 52% islanders ?….

Edited August 17, 2018 by david555

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

That is because the WTO deals solely in trade in goods and not in services.

 

The UK makes a considerable surplus in services and a notable deficit in goods.

 

So were as you can get away without freedom of movement- land, labour, capital, etc. for goods, it is a necessity for services. A simple example - how is a British orchestra going to perform a concert in the EU without the right to go there ? Yes they  could apply for visas and do customs declarations for all their instruments, but that costs time and money and puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

 

It's the single market and all the four freedoms that level the playing field.   

Until there are too many new players just goal hanging.

[aright]

20 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

So you want zero tariff trade? Under WTO rules you would have to offer that to all WTO members. Consequence: forget about any manufacturing in the UK because you cannot compete anymore.

And even with zero tariff trade you still need to administrate it. Where do you do that? Yes, border.

 

It doesn't have to be zero tariff. With properly engineered systems and a will on the part of the participants tariffs can be applied at any point between embarkation and disembarkation or in the case of RI trade loading and unloading.. It is not beyond our wit.

As for zero tariffs if we go down the no deal route I would be happy with us declaring ourselves a zero tariff free zone which would interest non EU global traders and would require the EU to tell us what tariffs would apply to our exports to which we could give an appropriate reply regarding our imports.. WTO rules don't prevent you from changing tariffs.

Of course it may be after the amputation the best we can do is feed on New Zealand Lamb or Argentinian Beef with vegetables from Morocco and potatoes from Idaho washed down with a nice bottle of Chilean Merlot. Wait a minute...……….that's not a bad idea.

[david555]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

 

It doesn't have to be zero tariff. With properly engineered systems and a will on the part of the participants tariffs can be applied at any point between embarkation and disembarkation or in the case of RI trade loading and unloading.. It is not beyond our wit.

As for zero tariffs if we go down the no deal route I would be happy with us declaring ourselves a zero tariff free zone which would interest non EU global traders and would require the EU to tell us what tariffs would apply to our exports to which we could give an appropriate reply regarding our imports.. WTO rules don't prevent you from changing tariffs.

Of course it may be after the amputation the best we can do is feed on New Zealand Lamb or Argentinian Beef with vegetables from Morocco and potatoes from Idaho washed down with a nice bottle of Chilean Merlot. Wait a minute...……….that's not a bad idea.

So finally why you are nagging and whining about Brexit ….. all shall go fine , and we finally loose that " handbrake member " …., you know the 1 footh in and 1 out , the always obstructing one...

Bright future for us both ...end good all good 

Edited August 17, 2018 by david555

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

In that case Italy should bring all its African immigrants to Donegal, give them a compass and tell them to walk eastwards.

You really think the UK doesn't need a border?

There's plenty of new immigrants planned anyway, as part of "Ireland 2040" - the penny has dropped and the Irish are getting increasingly miffed about it.

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

 

It doesn't have to be zero tariff. With properly engineered systems and a will on the part of the participants tariffs can be applied at any point between embarkation and disembarkation or in the case of RI trade loading and unloading.. It is not beyond our wit.

As for zero tariffs if we go down the no deal route I would be happy with us declaring ourselves a zero tariff free zone which would interest non EU global traders and would require the EU to tell us what tariffs would apply to our exports to which we could give an appropriate reply regarding our imports.. WTO rules don't prevent you from changing tariffs.

Of course it may be after the amputation the best we can do is feed on New Zealand Lamb or Argentinian Beef with vegetables from Morocco and potatoes from Idaho washed down with a nice bottle of Chilean Merlot. Wait a minute...……….that's not a bad idea.

So not really check what or who passes the border? Smugglers paradise for sure.

 

Silly me, I thought the Brexiteers actually meant something when they said "taking back control". Now I know it was just another hollow phrase.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

 

I never claimed that the 300 million did vote in the Irish referendum. What I did say was that the Treaty had already been ratified on behalf of these 300 million. Because 50,000 odd voted one way rather than the other in Ireland, the wishes of this 300 million were going to be denied. If this is your idea of democracy in action, then I feel very sorry for you. When it was found that the major factor behind the result was ignorance, it just proved the failings of a first-past-the-post referendum.

 

Of course I would not dare suggest that so much as one Brexit voter did not fully understand the ramifications of their decision....

The problem was and is that the EU hates and can't accept the simple answer, "NO"! It messes up their ultimate goal of gaining centralised power and control over Europe - this is the essential aim of this oligarchical EU Project - that is the main ramification of the future that the majority of Britons are aware of and so chose to reject. 

[david555]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The problem was and is that the EU hates and can't accept the simple answer, "NO"! It messes up their ultimate goal of gaining centralised power and control over Europe - this is the essential aim of this oligarchical EU Project - that is the main ramification of the future that the majority of Britons are aware of and so chose to reject. 

This is exactly same from U.K. side they can not have a NO ….. hence why trying to pushing to deals the E.U. never shall give as demanded.....U.K. can not accept , leaving is your freedom and any freedom has his consequences..

Why making it difficult ….leaving is simple  stepping out the door !

[Stupooey]

56 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I agree that you did not claim that 300 million had voted but why should those 300 million who did NOT vote have a greater say in another countries voting?

 

The EU.

 

One size does NOT fit all.

One of the positive features of the EU is that it cannot implement major legislation without the agreement of all member countries. Therefore if one nation objects, then the reason for their objection needs to be addressed. In the case of the Irish referendum, about 860,000 people voted against ratifying the Treaty. 22% of this number, or about 190,000 admitted they voted against because they didn't understand the Treaty. The ratification was rejected by a majority of about 110,000, so the whole Treaty affecting 300 million people had effectively been scuppered by 190,000 who didn't know what they were voting for. One size does not fit all, but if one competitor in a race says he cannot run because his shoes are a size too small, is it not better to give him a new pair of shoes rather than abandon the whole race?

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

That is because the WTO deals solely in trade in goods and not in services.

 

The UK makes a considerable surplus in services and a notable deficit in goods.

 

So were as you can get away without freedom of movement- land, labour, capital, etc. for goods, it is a necessity for services. A simple example - how is a British orchestra going to perform a concert in the EU without the right to go there ? Yes they  could apply for visas and do customs declarations for all their instruments, but that costs time and money and puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

 

It's the single market and all the four freedoms that level the playing field.   

I meant unfettered freedoms.  

 

Countries deal with each other regardless, don't they?

 

It's not as if all trade would stop, far from it.

Edited August 17, 2018 by mommysboy

[aright]

17 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

So not really check what or who passes the border? Smugglers paradise for sure.

 

Silly me, I thought the Brexiteers actually meant something when they said "taking back control". Now I know it was just another hollow phrase.

With joint participation properly engineered systems can control goods and people and god knows the UK has made many proposals in this regard. It is as important to NI that we don't let defined nationals into their country as it is for them to not let the same into the UK. Like the EU you close the gate when you see a problem and stop searching for solutions. The EU does it of course as a salve to prevent us leaving the EU. 

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I meant unfettered freedoms.  

 

Countries deal with each other regardless, don't they?

 

It's not as if all trade would stop, far from it.

Most counties don't have free trade in services 

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

With joint participation properly engineered systems can control goods and people and god knows the UK has made many proposals in this regard. It is as important to NI that we don't let defined nationals into their country as it is for them to not let the same into the UK. Like the EU you close the gate when you see a problem and stop searching for solutions. The EU does it of course as a salve to prevent us leaving the EU. 

Technological solution that doesn't exist yet (and may never exist).... And then there's the privacy concerns (how do you control people without a border check????).

Hello!!!! Brexit date is very near.... Tick, tock......  Time to get realistic, not time to blame EU.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

Most counties don't have free trade in services 

As far as I know Yorkshire is free to trade with Lancashire.

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

As far as I know Yorkshire is free to trade with Lancashire.

lesdixia strikes again !

?

[vogie]

Just now, tebee said:

lesdixia strikes again !

?

Sorry tebee, just having a bit of fun?

[aright]

22 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Technological solution that doesn't exist yet (and may never exist).... And then there's the privacy concerns (how do you control people without a border check????).

Hello!!!! Brexit date is very near.... Tick, tock......  Time to get realistic, not time to blame EU.

There is a problem there which given good will can be solved to the satisfaction of both sides but if there is only intransigence on the part of the EU it will be solved to the detriment of the RI. It seems your only solution is to stay in the EU......that's not going to happen. 

[whatsupdoc]

38 minutes ago, aright said:

There is a problem there which given good will can be solved to the satisfaction of both sides but if there is only intransigence on the part of the EU it will be solved to the detriment of the RI. It seems your only solution is to stay in the EU......that's not going to happen. 

There is a reason why the Irish border is the big stumbling block in the negotiations. It is because there is no easy solution (except indeed remaining in the EU).

And if Brexit takes place there is an absolute necessity to have a solution. The border needs to be checked on both sides, both for goods and people passing it. No way around it, and I haven't mentioned the consequences yet for the Good Friday Agreement.

Goodwill alone doesn't solve this conundrum and I do not see any solution in-between a hard border and no border at all, certainly not one based on non-existing technology.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

The reason there is going to be a no deal scenario is because Ireland and the UK don't want a border, so if we walk away do you think it is likely we would put up a border, it defies all logic.

There are 2 borders across the island of Ireland, a UK border and an RoI border. In March next year the RoI border will become an external EU border and as such will come under the jurisdiction of FRONTEX. TM has no say in the management of that border whatsoever, only the UK side.

It is a fact of life that livestock cannot read so until they can you must have the same regulations either side of the border, or put up a fence.

There are only 2 solutions to the Irish border problem, the single market or reunification.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

There are 2 borders across the island of Ireland, a UK border and an RoI border. In March next year the RoI border will become an external EU border and as such will come under the jurisdiction of FRONTEX. TM has no say in the management of that border whatsoever, only the UK side.

It is a fact of life that livestock cannot read so until they can you must have the same regulations either side of the border, or put up a fence.

There are only 2 solutions to the Irish border problem, the single market or reunification.

Don't tell me, it seems your question needs directing to Mrs May who has already stated that there will be no border, but in all honesty I think Mrs May is only bothered about the UK side.

Why do you keep mentioning the Norway model and single market, deep down you must know that is not leaving the EU and is not going to happen.

I think when we leave the EU people might have a better understanding of what democracy means.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yes, those effectively are the options, and UK has chosen out. 

The UK has not chosen to be out of the single market, TM has proposed a half in half out scenario and not surprisingly rejected by the EU. It has been hinted she could concede on the free movement issue which would be out in name only.

 

We are still waiting to see what the JRM proposal will look like.