UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

18 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Very useful article here regarding U.K. membership of EEA, particularly so since it is from the former EU legal head honcho.

https://esharp.eu/debates/the-uk-and-europe/why-the-uk-will-not-become-an-eea-member-after-brexit#.W44uwwjj_Nl.twitter



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It could be done in a jiffy, since UK is already perfectly aligned. 

 

This man is a technocrat- he would see sharp edges on a marshmallow.

[Orac]

It could be done in a jiffy, since UK is already perfectly aligned. 
 
This man is a technocrat- he would see sharp edges on a marshmallow.

Of course we are perfectly aligned at present - we already have free movement of people and pay into EU coffers.


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[rixalex]

When interviewed on BBC news, Mervyn King said the essential services were drowning because of brexit, take it you think he has got it wrong as well.
But your right, they want the money for brexit and nothing else is seen as a priority.

Haven't seen the interview but if he's saying that Brexit is the ONLY reason there isn't enough money for certain services, then yes, I disagree.

Re, "they want money for Brexit", no, they NEED some money for Brexit, and have NEEDED it since the day parliament all voted to let the people decide in or out and promised to implement that decision.

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[kwilco]

8 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Dug their own grave..... now lay in it!

 

Who agreed to a referendum? Who devised such a poor format?  Who showed such utter incompetence right from day one?  Who sought to circumvent the supremacy of Parliament, not once but twice?

 

What any other party can do just depends on what can be salvaged from a terrible campaign.

 

 

 

Referendums are the tools of dictators and despots.

[kwilco]

It's now quite clear that the Brexit camp is utterly divided, most don't won't May's Brexit, some want a "no deal" and others want something akin to EU membership.

 

All this should have been worked out BEFORE any vote...

 

What we have now is a huge number of retainers and the squabbling bundle of fractious Brexiteers who couldn't even agree whether to have tea or coffee.

 

Their should be an election and the voting public can send MPs to sort this out once the Brexit side has come up with a uniform plan.

[dunroaming]

Before the referendum the Brexit camp talked Brexit up based on nothing other than speculation, made up promises and a passion to win at all costs.  Facts were never on the table.  The Remain camp talked it down based on a combination of warnings from the EU, half hearted speculation and a misguided belief that they couldn't lose.  So the result was never going to be based on what would be delivered, but just speculation and a whim.  For us now to expect some sort of magical Brexit deal to be on the table shows an outstanding naivety by everyone.

 

But we don't expect that anymore, it is all about damage limitation now.

[rixalex]

They'll never be unanimous agreement on Brexit all the while there are a substantial number of MPs who refuse to follow through on their promise to allow the EU in out matter to be decided by the referendum. It's them and their stalling antics as much responsible for the shambles as any of the inept characters on the Brexit side.

Simple solution is anyone who can't bring themself to do as they promised, step down and go and do something else.

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[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Simple solution is anyone who can't bring themself to do as they promised, step down and go and do something else.

The problem is that they could never deliver what they promised but nobody is honest enough to say "We screwed this up because we were never honest from the start".

[aright]

 

Anything could now happen on Brexit as Barnier bluff goes wrong 

 

Michel Barnier has overplayed his hand on Brexit. By promoting the option of a ‘Canada’ trade deal so pointedly - both in his interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine and in talks with British MPs - he has given the idea a new legitimacy in Westminster. ‘Canada Plus’ is springing back to life..............

The UK would be outside the customs union. This requires ‘rules of origin’ paperwork - as within Nafta - but it is a manageable friction. Big companies already conduct world trade on this basis, and have the software installed. The process can be streamlined with ‘authorized economic operators’ and cutting-edge technology. “It relies on the best practices around the world,” he said.....................

“We think the Government should call the Commission’s bluff by offering them a choice between a ‘Canada Plus’ deal that covers the whole UK, or a trade deal based on WTO terms,” he said. ie Julian Jessop....IEA Chief Economist

I have no doubt that if the tables were turned and a determined British government offered Europe a binary choice between ‘Canada Plus’ or the WTO tout cru, the superficial unity of the EU would break immediately. Member states would pull rank over the Barnier task force. Whatever the claims, the EU side are not prepared for the political and economic shock of a no-deal outcome.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/05/anything-could-now-happen-brexit-barnier-bluff-goes-wrong/

 

[mommysboy]

If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans 
There would be no need for tinkers’ hands!

[aright]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans 
There would be no need for tinkers’ hands!

For many, negative thinking is a habit which over time becomes an addiction.

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

I have no doubt that if the tables were turned and a determined British government offered Europe a binary choice between ‘Canada Plus’ or the WTO tout cru, the superficial unity of the EU would break immediately. Member states would pull rank over the Barnier task force. Whatever the claims, the EU side are not prepared for the political and economic shock of a no-deal outcome.

Blah blah blah.  Just todays attempt by the media to make a story out of nothing.  Tomorrow there will be another and another.  Yesterday it was Raab pressing Barnier to start putting into place a no deal deal  to help prevent the dire effects a no deal would bring.

 

Until something is actually agreed it is all just hot air and media hype.

[aright]

Hot air and media hype is part of the negotiation process. What would you replace it with?

Please don't say honesty and good intent, that's the finality of negotiation

Edited September 6, 2018 by aright

[aright]

The Martin Selmayr affair displays the breathtaking arrogance of Brussels

The Martin Selmayr affair, which reveals much about attitudes to power and accountability at the top of  the EU, is both depressing and depressingly familiar.

Few Britons, who voted so numerously to leave the bloc, will be surprised by a scathing report yesterday from EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly. In it, she condemns the instant double promotion in February of Mr Selmayr from Jean-Claude Juncker’s chief of staff to first deputy secretary-general of the European Commission, then – when the existing chief civil servant, Alexander Italianer within minutes conveniently announced he was retiring – to the top post itself, as breaking both “the spirit and the letter of the law”................

But fewer people still will  be surprised to learn that the damning conclusions of her investigation will nevertheless have no impact on Mr Selmayr’s role. The fix was in, Ms O’Reilly’s report in essence concludes, and there’s nothing we can do about it. ............

Since its inception the EU has struggled to maintain any convincing impression that it is a democratic institution. Yet this is an era when even long-established parliaments – such as our own – are being held to account as never before. You would think that would give Brussels pause. You would think Ms O’Reilly’s report would leave them red-faced and apologetic. Not a bit of it. Once again, Britons will be thanking their lucky stars today that they voted to leave.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/09/04/martin-selmayr-affair-displays-breathtaking-arrogance-brussels/

 

 

[dunroaming]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

Hot air and media hype is part of the negotiation process. What would you replace it with?

Please don't say honesty and good intent, that's the finality of negotiation

No it isn't.  Media hype is to sell newspapers and has no purpose whatsoever in itself.  Honesty and good intent?  I am not that naïve and neither are you. Negotiations are done behind closed doors and we, the public, have no say or influence in that.   

 

[adammike]

28 minutes ago, aright said:

The Martin Selmayr affair displays the breathtaking arrogance of Brussels

The Martin Selmayr affair, which reveals much about attitudes to power and accountability at the top of  the EU, is both depressing and depressingly familiar.

Few Britons, who voted so numerously to leave the bloc, will be surprised by a scathing report yesterday from EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly. In it, she condemns the instant double promotion in February of Mr Selmayr from Jean-Claude Juncker’s chief of staff to first deputy secretary-general of the European Commission, then – when the existing chief civil servant, Alexander Italianer within minutes conveniently announced he was retiring – to the top post itself, as breaking both “the spirit and the letter of the law”................

But fewer people still will  be surprised to learn that the damning conclusions of her investigation will nevertheless have no impact on Mr Selmayr’s role. The fix was in, Ms O’Reilly’s report in essence concludes, and there’s nothing we can do about it. ............

Since its inception the EU has struggled to maintain any convincing impression that it is a democratic institution. Yet this is an era when even long-established parliaments – such as our own – are being held to account as never before. You would think that would give Brussels pause. You would think Ms O’Reilly’s report would leave them red-faced and apologetic. Not a bit of it. Once again, Britons will be thanking their lucky stars today that they voted to leave.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/09/04/martin-selmayr-affair-displays-breathtaking-arrogance-brussels/

 

 

Standard Operating Procedure for the Telegraph.Nothing to see here.

[aright]

17 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

No it isn't.  Media hype is to sell newspapers and has no purpose whatsoever in itself.  Honesty and good intent?  I am not that naïve and neither are you. Negotiations are done behind closed doors and we, the public, have no say or influence in that.   

 

No it isn't.I think you have forgotten newspapers have political affiliations designed to promote and project the political ambitions of the ownership and readership of the particular publication. Elements of truth, half truths, hype and obfuscation are all part of the process. The selling is almost guaranteed because they all worship at the same altar.

[ivor bigun]

There is only one reason i voted leave,BRUSSELS its a corrupt gravy train that runs for their benifit only.

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[aright]

3 minutes ago, adammike said:

Standard Operating Procedure for the Telegraph.Nothing to see here.

What appalling reading skills.........Emily O'Reilly does not work for the Telegraph.

 

Few Britons, who voted so numerously to leave the bloc, will be surprised by a scathing report yesterday from EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly. In it, she condemns the instant double promotion in February of Mr Selmayr from Jean-Claude Juncker’s chief of staff to first deputy secretary-general of the European Commission, then – when the existing chief civil servant, Alexander Italianer within minutes conveniently announced he was retiring – to the top post itself, as breaking both “the spirit and the letter of the law”................

[Orac]

1 hour ago, aright said:

 

Anything could now happen on Brexit as Barnier bluff goes wrong 

 

Michel Barnier has overplayed his hand on Brexit. By promoting the option of a ‘Canada’ trade deal so pointedly - both in his interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine and in talks with British MPs - he has given the idea a new legitimacy in Westminster. ‘Canada Plus’ is springing back to life..............

The UK would be outside the customs union. This requires ‘rules of origin’ paperwork - as within Nafta - but it is a manageable friction. Big companies already conduct world trade on this basis, and have the software installed. The process can be streamlined with ‘authorized economic operators’ and cutting-edge technology. “It relies on the best practices around the world,” he said.....................

“We think the Government should call the Commission’s bluff by offering them a choice between a ‘Canada Plus’ deal that covers the whole UK, or a trade deal based on WTO terms,” he said. ie Julian Jessop....IEA Chief Economist

I have no doubt that if the tables were turned and a determined British government offered Europe a binary choice between ‘Canada Plus’ or the WTO tout cru, the superficial unity of the EU would break immediately. Member states would pull rank over the Barnier task force. Whatever the claims, the EU side are not prepared for the political and economic shock of a no-deal outcome.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/05/anything-could-now-happen-brexit-barnier-bluff-goes-wrong/

 

 

This article seems to imply that Barnier is offering something new here and that the threat of the U.K. insisting on a Canada style deal or reverting to WTO terms is somehow our new negotiating position whereas this has been Barnier’s position for some time as can be seen from this slide from his presentation last December.

[adammike]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

What appalling reading skills.........Emily O'Reilly does not work for the Telegraph.

 

Few Britons, who voted so numerously to leave the bloc, will be surprised by a scathing report yesterday from EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly. In it, she condemns the instant double promotion in February of Mr Selmayr from Jean-Claude Juncker’s chief of staff to first deputy secretary-general of the European Commission, then – when the existing chief civil servant, Alexander Italianer within minutes conveniently announced he was retiring – to the top post itself, as breaking both “the spirit and the letter of the law”................

I have been reading the telegraph on line since it went on line, every day on the front page of the internet and print editions without fail there is at least one article against the EU and or the Euro.Its what they do fact or fiction it all just gets blurred into Brexit cheerleading.The most important thing about the Article is it's filed under opinion.

[dunroaming]

54 minutes ago, aright said:

No it isn't.I think you have forgotten newspapers have political affiliations designed to promote and project the political ambitions of the ownership and readership of the particular publication. Elements of truth, half truths, hype and obfuscation are all part of the process. The selling is almost guaranteed because they all worship at the same altar.

Yes my point completely.  Left wing newspapers publish articles that will appeal to their readers and right wing ones do the same.  Nothing to do with any "negotiations" it is just o sell newspapers to the punters.

[dunroaming]

44 minutes ago, adammike said:

I have been reading the telegraph on line since it went on line, every day on the front page of the internet and print editions without fail there is at least one article against the EU and or the Euro.Its what they do fact or fiction it all just gets blurred into Brexit cheerleading.The most important thing about the Article is it's filed under opinion.

99% of these articles are just opinion.  Until something is actually agreed on the table that is all there is. 

[melvinmelvin]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Are you trying to say the position has been clarified?

 

in my view, pretty much so

but, with things like these you never really know before the moment is there

 

anyway,

what is it you refer to when you say constitution?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, aright said:

The Martin Selmayr affair displays the breathtaking arrogance of Brussels

The Martin Selmayr affair, which reveals much about attitudes to power and accountability at the top of  the EU, is both depressing and depressingly familiar.

Few Britons, who voted so numerously to leave the bloc, will be surprised by a scathing report yesterday from EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly. In it, she condemns the instant double promotion in February of Mr Selmayr from Jean-Claude Juncker’s chief of staff to first deputy secretary-general of the European Commission, then – when the existing chief civil servant, Alexander Italianer within minutes conveniently announced he was retiring – to the top post itself, as breaking both “the spirit and the letter of the law”................

But fewer people still will  be surprised to learn that the damning conclusions of her investigation will nevertheless have no impact on Mr Selmayr’s role. The fix was in, Ms O’Reilly’s report in essence concludes, and there’s nothing we can do about it. ............

Since its inception the EU has struggled to maintain any convincing impression that it is a democratic institution. Yet this is an era when even long-established parliaments – such as our own – are being held to account as never before. You would think that would give Brussels pause. You would think Ms O’Reilly’s report would leave them red-faced and apologetic. Not a bit of it. Once again, Britons will be thanking their lucky stars today that they voted to leave.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/09/04/martin-selmayr-affair-displays-breathtaking-arrogance-brussels/

 

 

I should say I'm shocked. But I can't. Thanks for the post.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, aright said:

 

Anything could now happen on Brexit as Barnier bluff goes wrong 

 

Michel Barnier has overplayed his hand on Brexit. By promoting the option of a ‘Canada’ trade deal so pointedly - both in his interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine and in talks with British MPs - he has given the idea a new legitimacy in Westminster. ‘Canada Plus’ is springing back to life..............

The UK would be outside the customs union. This requires ‘rules of origin’ paperwork - as within Nafta - but it is a manageable friction. Big companies already conduct world trade on this basis, and have the software installed. The process can be streamlined with ‘authorized economic operators’ and cutting-edge technology. “It relies on the best practices around the world,” he said.....................

“We think the Government should call the Commission’s bluff by offering them a choice between a ‘Canada Plus’ deal that covers the whole UK, or a trade deal based on WTO terms,” he said. ie Julian Jessop....IEA Chief Economist

I have no doubt that if the tables were turned and a determined British government offered Europe a binary choice between ‘Canada Plus’ or the WTO tout cru, the superficial unity of the EU would break immediately. Member states would pull rank over the Barnier task force. Whatever the claims, the EU side are not prepared for the political and economic shock of a no-deal outcome.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/05/anything-could-now-happen-brexit-barnier-bluff-goes-wrong/

 

 

I am not familiar with the Canadian model, maybe good for UK maybe not, dunno.

 

I think that the way Switzerland interacts with EU would be more to UK likings.

 

Norway model?

1) this is nothing for EU and UK to negotiate

    it would require UK becoming member of EFTA

    Iceland might be OK with that. Swizerland? Doubtful.

   Who would want inept shit like the UK government as a party in an international org?

2)

 assuming UK party to EFTA

then next step would be for UK to have a go at entering EEA,

would require ratification  by every single member of EEA

4)

am fairly confident that this way of accessing SM would not be to UK likings

 

 

[Stupooey]

3 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

There is only one reason i voted leave,BRUSSELS its a corrupt gravy train that runs for their benifit only.

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...and that must be true because you read it in the Telegraph/Express/Mail (maybe not as it's banned in Thailand, possibly the only sensible decision the Junta's made)/Sun...

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I am not familiar with the Canadian model, maybe good for UK maybe not, dunno.

 

I think that the way Switzerland interacts with EU would be more to UK likings.

 

Norway model?

1) this is nothing for EU and UK to negotiate

    it would require UK becoming member of EFTA

    Iceland might be OK with that. Swizerland? Doubtful.

   Who would want inept shit like the UK government as a party in an international org?

2)

 assuming UK party to EFTA

then next step would be for UK to have a go at entering EEA,

would require ratification  by every single member of EEA

4)

am fairly confident that this way of accessing SM would not be to UK likings

 

 

Well, the UK has to come up with some deal that resembles a free trade deal, or the Government is out.  And I don't believe the EU wants an angry competitor on its doorstep.

[ivor bigun]

...and that must be true because you read it in the Telegraph/Express/Mail (maybe not as it's banned in Thailand, possibly the only sensible decision the Junta's made)/Sun...

If its not a gravy train why do they have a dept store only they can shop in cut price? And they bribe those that are anti EU by giving them jobs with fabulous saleries,think Neil Kinnock and his family earn millions ,were dead against the EUtill the gravy trsin stopped at their station and let them on

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[Stupooey]

10 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

If its not a gravy train why do they have a dept store only they can shop in cut price? And they bribe those that are anti EU by giving them jobs with fabulous saleries,think Neil Kinnock and his family earn millions ,were dead against the EUtill the gravy trsin stopped at their station and let them on

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You have been reading the wrong newspapers. Kinnock was originally anti-EU, but by the time he was elected Labour leader he had changed his position. In fact one of his first moves after becoming leader was to re-align the party's stance on the EU following Michael Foot's opposition to it.

He was later appointed as one of the UK's European Commissioners by John Major's Conservative Government. As someone with 25 years experience as an MP, with 9 as leader of a major political party, he would appear to have been an excellent choice. Do you have a problem with that?