UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

Brexit having no effect?

Those scaremongering Reuters are at it again.......

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-financialcentres/new-york-overtakes-london-as-top-financial-center-brexit-blamed-idUSKCN1LS16I

 

[bristolboy]

11 hours ago, soleddy said:

Just get the hell out of it before we have to bail out more Greeks and allow more Somalians to get da dole.

 

Once we start making our own laws and our own trade you will see the pound grow stronger.

 

With the increase of Trumpism/Populism we might do well to remember how Mussolini started out. Hungary, Germany and even dear sexy Sweden are slowly imploding.

 

We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. Farage, Boris and co. deserve medals for gallantry in the face of a scheming Brussels which nicks more than it gives and even tries to tell us that bananas cannot be too bendy, while it is bailing out all of Southern Europe with our money. A few years ago, I lived in Spain---a lovely country which has vast empty motorways, bridges, apartment blocks and malls built from EU money (not to mention the rich men who bought the cheapest concrete in order to get richer).

 

The country has made up its mind. The moaners just remind me of kids who want to take the game back to the shop because they didn't like it after all. Sorry sonny...

 

Eddy

 

 

Also, the UK was not called on to bail out Greece or rather the bankers who lent to Greece. Only Eurozone members were required to do that.

[rixalex]

And not once in print? Do you realize how statistically unlikely that is? Massively unlikely.

Well I haven't searched myself for examples, as I'm here just offering an opinion, not giving evidence in court. I know what I heard. Believe it or don't. Your choice.

I will concede though that Brexiteers may well have not been going out of their way to talk about the downsides, just as the remainers may not have been going out of their way to talk about the upsides of leave. Kind of to be expected I think.

My point though was that when Brexiteers were put on the spot with a direct question like, "Are you saying they'll be no economic hardship if we leave?", the answer was never, "yes", but rather, "no, there may be a period of difficulty as kinks are ironed out, but it won't last", or words to that effect. Anyone with the most passing of interests in politics would have been able to read into what was being said and know that a guarantee of instant prosperity certainty wasn't what was being promised.

Out of interest, in the course of your searching, did you come across any Brexiteers who answered the above question with a "yes"?

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[rixalex]

You say there were lies on both sides and that is true.  The difference was that to vote remain you were voting for no change.  You knew what you had and as flawed as the EU is the choice was to stay in and fight for change or leave and hope the promises being made by the Brexit boys.  I certainly wobbled in my commitment to stay in and thought long and hard before voting.  But who would trust people like Johnson or Farage to play a straight bat?  Not me for sure.  But likewise I didn't trust Cameron either.
 
However, unlike you, I think we were all naïve over the referendum.  The remainers naïve in thinking that the vote would definitely go their way and so not bothering getting out of their armchairs and actually voting and the leavers for understandably believing that the rhetoric sounded like the answer to the NHS woes and much more.  I don't blame the leave voters for voting that way, I find it disappointing that they have just rolled over and accepted they have been shafted without fighting back.

I would suggest to you that the reason they haven't fought back is because they don't believe they have been shafted. At least not by the Brexit camp.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[billd766]

14 hours ago, bristolboy said:

"We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. "

When politicians say stuff like this they get laughed at.

 

We still have some of the brains and some of the spirit but none of the leadership of old who actually DID things.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

We still have some of the brains and some of the spirit but none of the leadership of old who actually DID things.

I feel a Last Night At The Proms coming on.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

This is what I wrote: 

 

"Austerity measures were taken directly after the financial crisis and before the referendum was even a real possibility, so of course it is a separate issue".

 

The word result was not included in my post but it was in yours. Austerity was the pet of Cameron/Osborne after they got in, in 2010, after the high debt/borrowing incurred by previous Labour gov (especially Gordon Brown 2007-2010). The financial crisis in the US, caused by debt, spread to most of Europe and obviously was another big factor. Whatever, the UK austerity policy was commenced way before the EU referendum was announced and the result was known.   

You are choosing to ignore what you wrote in post No 2362.

[sandyf]

Sign of the times.

 

London has been replaced by New York as the world’s most attractive financial centre, a survey has indicated, as Brexitprompts banks to shift jobs out of the city to keep access to Europe’s single market.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-london-new-york-financial-centre-eu-single-market-banks-a8534536.html

[transam]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Sign of the times.

 

London has been replaced by New York as the world’s most attractive financial centre, a survey has indicated, as Brexitprompts banks to shift jobs out of the city to keep access to Europe’s single market.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-london-new-york-financial-centre-eu-single-market-banks-a8534536.html

UK jobs went to China way back...Why was that...?

[dunroaming]

18 hours ago, nauseus said:

Would you blame them if you knew that they did not actually believe the NHS and similar rhetoric?

What a strange response.  Do you mean that they voted to leave knowing that they were not going to get what they were voting for?  Did you?

[dunroaming]

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

I would suggest to you that the reason they haven't fought back is because they don't believe they have been shafted. At least not by the Brexit camp.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

So you think that the Brexiteers are satisfied with the way it's going and believe that May is delivering the deal that was promised?  Well not any I have met.  You don't think that the Brexit camp have let them down?  ?

[transam]

4 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

So you think that the Brexiteers are satisfied with the way it's going and believe that May is delivering the deal that was promised?  Well not any I have met.  You don't think that the Brexit camp have let them down?  ?

I wonder where you would have stood during 1940.....?

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

I wonder where you would have stood during 1940.....?

Yes, your valiant defense of Brexit clearly marks you as a worthy and courageous successor to those who sacrificed so much, often their lives, to preserve Great Britain. You Brexiters are heroes. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

Yes, your valiant defense of Brexit clearly marks you as a worthy and courageous successor to those who sacrificed so much, often their lives, to preserve Great Britain. You Brexiters are heroes. 

Well thank you....Plus you are right, the British back then did not want to be controlled by Germans, Brexit folk voted for the same thing....?

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Well thank you....Plus you are right, the British back then did not want to be controlled by Germans, Brexit folk voted for the same thing....?

I just hope that you and your fellow Brexiters all survive this terrible ordeal.  May none of you be run over by an Audi. Thank you for your service.

[rixalex]

So you think that the Brexiteers are satisfied with the way it's going and believe that May is delivering the deal that was promised?  Well not any I have met.  You don't think that the Brexit camp have let them down?  [emoji23]

Again, another straw man argument. I didn't say that Brexiteers were satisfied with the way things were going. I said maybe Brexiteers didn't feel shafted by the Brexit camp, hence why they aren't up in arms with the Brexit camp. Maybe the people they feel angry with are the politicians who voted for a referendum in which there was a promise to deliver the outcome, but who have spent all their time trying to slow down, thwart and overturn that decision.

Not suggesting there wouldn't have been obstacles to overcome, but maybe had all 650 MPs got behind the result as they promised to and as they certainly would have done, had the result been to their liking, then things would have progressed a darn sight faster and easier. Instead all we've had from the majority of them is actions that have made things messy and difficult, followed by proclamations by them of, " there you go, see how messy and difficult this is... let's just forget the whole thing shall we".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

I feel a Last Night At The Proms coming on.

They say mockery is the most sincere form of flattery...but you would never attend something as hokey and parochial as the aforementioned , I'm sure! ?

Edited September 13, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dick dasterdly]

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

I would suggest to you that the reason they haven't fought back is because they don't believe they have been shafted. At least not by the Brexit camp.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

36 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

So you think that the Brexiteers are satisfied with the way it's going and believe that May is delivering the deal that was promised?  Well not any I have met.  You don't think that the Brexit camp have let them down?  ?

This is beneath you, as you know full well that this is not at all representative of rixalex's post ☹️.

 

Edit - Sorry rixalex, I replied immediately on reading dunroaming's (unusual for him), stupid post. I should have read further before replying, to realise that you had already replied.

Edited September 13, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[aright]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

I feel a Last Night At The Proms coming on.

Can I recommend Darius Milhauds Scaramouche performed by  young musician of the year Jess Gillam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgFSYioCcm8

Larger full orchestra version on BBC proms. 

 

 

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Well thank you....Plus you are right, the British back then did not want to be controlled by Germans, Brexit folk voted for the same thing....?

What a nonsense,

With brexit or the isolation of the Uk, the probability of tensions and discontent becomes greater.

To justify brexit with 70 years of stone age antipathy.

Sad.

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by tomacht8

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Not suggesting there wouldn't have been obstacles to overcome, but maybe had all 650 MPs got behind the result as they promised to and as they certainly would have done, had the result been to their liking, then things would have progressed a darn sight faster and easier. Instead all we've had from the majority of them is actions that have made things messy and difficult, followed by proclamations by them of, " there you go, see how messy and difficult this is... let's just forget the whole thing shall we".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

This is what's known as the Tinkerbell theory of politics. If only everyone in the UK believed in Brexit or acted as if they did, that would strengthen the UK's negotiating position. The fact is the Brexit camp promised that the UK would be rid of the obligations of membership in the UK but still enjoy many of the benefits that previously were exclusive to members or to paying affiliated nations. The EU warned that this wasn't going to be the case but Brexiters persisted in advancing this notion. Even if every citizen of the UK clapped their hands, Tinkerbell is not going to fly in the EU.

[aright]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Again, another straw man argument. I didn't say that Brexiteers were satisfied with the way things were going. I said maybe Brexiteers didn't feel shafted by the Brexit camp, hence why they aren't up in arms with the Brexit camp. Maybe the people they feel angry with are the politicians who voted for a referendum in which there was a promise to deliver the outcome, but who have spent all their time trying to slow down, thwart and overturn that decision.

Not suggesting there wouldn't have been obstacles to overcome, but maybe had all 650 MPs got behind the result as they promised to and as they certainly would have done, had the result been to their liking, then things would have progressed a darn sight faster and easier. Instead all we've had from the majority of them is actions that have made things messy and difficult, followed by proclamations by them of, " there you go, see how messy and difficult this is... let's just forget the whole thing shall we".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes! In general I would have to agree with you on Remainer mindset. They have ignored the real need for EU reform, refused engagement with the real reasons for Brexit, protesting the triumph of the loudest rather than the more informed or reasoned. In short, and I do admit to some exceptions on this topic...they have debased the debate. 

[bristolboy]

28 minutes ago, aright said:

Yes! In general I would have to agree with you on Remainer mindset. They have ignored the real need for EU reform, refused engagement with the real reasons for Brexit, protesting the triumph of the loudest rather than the more informed or reasoned. In short, and I do admit to some exceptions on this topic...they have debased the debate. 

Yes, it's always elevating when Brexiters invoke the experience of the UK in  WW2 to justify Brexit.

[dunroaming]

7 hours ago, rixalex said:

I would suggest to you that the reason they haven't fought back is because they don't believe they have been shafted. At least not by the Brexit camp.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

That was the statement I was responding to.  The following post by you was much clearer, thank you.

 

Let's look at the scenario after the referendum.  The chief spokesperson for Brexit and main flag waver was Johnson.  He immediately ran for cover and didn't stand, nor did Gove or any other of the Brexiteer team.  Angela Leadsom did throw her hat in the ring but was always a non starter.  May was cajoled into standing with the backing of Johnson, Gove and the other Brexit voices.  May had been a remainer but still they pushed her towards the poisoned chalice.

 

She grasped the chalice and as well as bringing Johnson aboard in a key cabinet position, she went on to put other prolific Brexiteers in prime negotiating positions. Liam Fox and David Davis being the main choices.  She followed this by making bizarre declarations and indicated going for a hard Brexit.  "No deal is better than a bad deal" and the insane  "Brexit means Brexit".

 

How do you see this as trying to scupper Brexit?  What more could she have done to beat the Brexit drum?  As time has gone by it has become more and more obvious that a successful Brexit cannot be delivered.  Evident by the mess that we are in today and the fact that May is holding a three hour emergency Cabinet meeting to discuss how to prepare for a possible no deal Brexit.

 

I know you feel that it is the remain side that have damaged the negotiations but it isn't the remain side running them.  May even replaced Davis with another hard Brexiteer Raab rather than going for a remain leaning option.  If she is trying to scupper Brexit then she is making hard work of it and committing political suicide at the same time.

 

Lastly, the MP's are there to do the right thing for their constituents but we all know they are really more interested in self preservation.  You cannot expect them to back a route that is as badly flawed as Brexit.

[rixalex]

This is what's known as the Tinkerbell theory of politics. If only everyone in the UK believed in Brexit or acted as if they did, that would strengthen the UK's negotiating position. The fact is the Brexit camp promised that the UK would be rid of the obligations of membership in the UK but still enjoy many of the benefits that previously were exclusive to members or to paying affiliated nations. The EU warned that this wasn't going to be the case but Brexiters persisted in advancing this notion. Even if every citizen of the UK clapped their hands, Tinkerbell is not going to fly in the EU.

No need for "everyone" to believe in Brexit, just the 650 in parliament who voted in favour of letting the people decide.

Doesn't matter how easy or how difficult something is, if Parliament isn't actually trying to do it, chances are it won't get done, and that is precisely what has happened... greeted then by triumphant cries from people like you of, "you see, we told you it couldn't be done".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, rixalex said:

No need for "everyone" to believe in Brexit, just the 650 in parliament who voted in favour of letting the people decide.

Doesn't matter how easy or how difficult something is, if Parliament isn't actually trying to do it, chances are it won't get done, and that is precisely what has happened... greeted then by triumphant cries from people like you of, "you see, we told you it couldn't be done".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

What do you mean by "Parliament trying to do it?" What exactly could Parliament do that it's not doing now? 

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Brexit folk voted for the same thing.

that just sums up the parochial and blinkered attitude of Brexiteers

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

You are choosing to ignore what you wrote in post No 2362.

I had to assume that your response was to my 2368 because it was displayed above it and that was what you misquoted. You are choosing to ignore that. 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, dunroaming said:

What a strange response.  Do you mean that they voted to leave knowing that they were not going to get what they were voting for?  Did you?

I meant that they voted to leave because they want to leave. The NHS and all the other rubbish, dished out from both sides, was recognised as such and largely ignored.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, aright said:

Can I recommend Darius Milhauds Scaramouche performed by  young musician of the year Jess Gillam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgFSYioCcm8

Larger full orchestra version on BBC proms. 

 

 

Brazileira. Nice. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by nauseus