Spare laptop battery in checked or hand-carry baggage?

[NanLaew]

I need a new battery for my ASUS laptop. I have a friend coming from the US early next month and I can get it on amazon so he hand carries it to Thailand. However, airlines are getting much more stringent on Li-Ion batteries in checked baggage. What's the chances of this being pulled from his checked baggage in pre-screening? It's rated at 5200mAh so does that exceed the allowance for carry on baggage? I know they have limits on the size of Li-Ion travel battery packs in carry on baggage but this isn't exactly the same type of battery, ie. no USB connectivity so cannot be charged or discharged in flight.

 

This laptop was never marketed in the Thailand so it's not coming up on lazada or any other local sites.

 

Thanks!

NL

[scorecard]

Ask the airline?

[Snow Leopard]

I would say hand luggage but check with the airline first. 

[NanLaew]

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/hazmat_safety/more_info/?hazmat=7

 

Doing the math, my new battery is a little under 77 Wh (watt-hours) so as far as the US FAA are concerned, this battery is less than 100 Wh and can go in his hand carry.

 

I'll check which airline he's on.

[OneMoreFarang]

I saw in the last days information about this but I don't remember if it was on the airline website or on the airport - I think it was on the airport.

 

According to that information you should carry batteries in you hand luggage and not checked in baggage.

 

Batteries should be charged to storage charge. This is the safest way to transport them. Fully charged is bad and no charge is also bad.

[NanLaew]

Here's IATA's latest and greatest guidelines.

 

 

 

[The Deerhunter]

On 8/27/2018 at 3:41 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

I saw in the last days information about this but I don't remember if it was on the airline website or on the airport - I think it was on the airport.

 

According to that information you should carry batteries in you hand luggage and not checked in baggage.

 

Batteries should be charged to storage charge. This is the safest way to transport them. Fully charged is bad and no charge is also bad.

Agree.  They are all L-Ion batteries.  After the 787 problems with L-Ion batteries, the logic is this....... If a L-ion  battery catches fire inside checked luggage in the hold then no-one knows till the plane crashes.  If your hand luggage overhead starts smoking they can open it and put the battery in a container of water (or throw it out the window?????).  Of course the chance of it catching fire is remote but think about it.  It is what you and I would recommend as the logical way of dealing with something with a remote possibility of killing us.  State of charge is less important as no airline employee is likely ask about that.  Incidentally charging batteries from about 30% only to about 90% only (i.e. never empty and never really full) immeasurably increases the life and number of charges available in any L-Ion battery.  Like from a few hundred (or less)  to possibly possibly up to several thousand charges.  Don't let them run dead empty:  And try to take them off charge before they hit 100%, if you can.  It really helps save your battery. 

[OneMoreFarang]

45 minutes ago, The Deerhunter said:

Agree.  They are all L-Ion batteries.  After the 787 problems with L-Ion batteries, the logic is this....... If a L-ion  battery catches fire inside checked luggage in the hold then no-one knows till the plane crashes.  If your hand luggage overhead starts smoking they can open it and put the battery in a container of water (or throw it out the window?????).  Of course the chance of it catching fire is remote but think about it.  It is what you and I would recommend as the logical way of dealing with something with a remote possibility of killing us.  State of charge is less important as no airline employee is likely ask about that.  Incidentally charging batteries from about 30% only to about 90% only (i.e. never empty and never really full) immeasurably increases the life and number of charges available in any L-Ion battery.  Like from a few hundred (or less)  to possibly possibly up to several thousand charges.  Don't let them run dead empty:  And try to take them off charge before they hit 100%, if you can.  It really helps save your battery. 

Lithium and water is not a healthy combination...

 

[The Deerhunter]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Lithium and water is not a healthy combination...

 

Well I did not know that.  Thanks for that. My new useless factoid for the day.  So, whatever they do it if they have one that starts smoking. They obviously have some apparatus for that eventuality: Maybe pop outside for a bucket of sand??? 

I am also reasonably sure they will not throw it out the window.   Thanks again.

[Sam Lin]

There has actually been quite a bit of study into how to handle a runaway Lithium battery fire on a small device in flight - as you say, you cannot throw it out the window, and it is hot enough that most cabin surfaces cannot withstand it. Some aircraft do keep a pan of sand available, otherwise a ceramic plate from the first class dining will also do the job.

[OneMoreFarang]

15 minutes ago, The Deerhunter said:

Well I did not know that.  Thanks for that. My new useless factoid for the day.  So, whatever they do it if they have one that starts smoking. They obviously have some apparatus for that eventuality: Maybe pop outside for a bucket of sand??? 

I am also reasonably sure they will not throw it out the window.   Thanks again.

 

That is one possible answer:

 

[scottiejohn]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 9:34 AM, The Deerhunter said:

And try to take them off charge before they hit 100%, if you can.  It really helps save your battery. 

Since when should you NOT fully charge.  The arguments for and against fully charging are charge cycles v running on full v heat of battery in an extreme environment if running on mains.

The consensus from most laptop providers appears to be fully charge if using but keep between 30-75% for transit/storage. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by scottiejohn

[OneMoreFarang]

12 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Since when should you NOT fully charge.  The arguments for and against fully charging are charge cycles v running on full v heat of battery in an extreme environment if running on mains.

The consensus from most laptop providers appears to be fully charge if using but keep between 30-75% for transit/storage. 

Modern batteries are charger with computer controlled chargers. I think we can rely on them to get it right.

[scottiejohn]

What has that photo and your comment got to do with a standard laptop charging/dis-charging cycle.

[OneMoreFarang]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

What has that photo and your comment got to do with a standard laptop charging/dis-charging cycle.

It's the same principle.

I could try to find a picture of the charging circuit in a notebook but I am not sure that would convince anybody.

The charger in the picture is used for RC batteries but it would certainly also work with notebook and other batteries.

[scottiejohn]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's the same principle.

I could try to find a picture of the charging circuit in a notebook but I am not sure that would convince anybody.

The charger in the picture is used for RC batteries but it would certainly also work with notebook and other batteries.

It does not answer my comment.  I believe it is misleading to state that you should NOT charge to 100%.  That is not considered to be good advice according to many notebook manufacturers.

Your other comment about 

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:23 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Like from a few hundred (or less)  to possibly possibly up to several thousand charges. 

Is also misleading.  A "charge" is NOT the same as a "charge cycle".  All reputable manufacturers only quote "charge cycles" NOT "charges".

[impulse]

17 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

It does not answer my comment.  I believe it is misleading to state that you should NOT charge to 100%.  That is not considered to be good advice according to many notebook manufacturers.

Your other comment about 

Is also misleading.  A "charge" is NOT the same as a "charge cycle".  All reputable manufacturers only quote "charge cycles" NOT "charges".

 

I would hope that your automatic, zoomy, engineered chargers will charge to the proper level than shut off.   To normal folk like me, I've charged it 100%.  That's all the charger will give it.  To someone who knows battery technology, the charger shuts off at 90% or some other appropriate level.  So it's really semantics.

 

Taking it to an extreme level of semantics, what is 100%?  Is that just before the battery starts smoking? Or is it the level that optimizes battery life?  Or does each vendor use their own definition?  Seems like arguing over it is pretty futile.

 

[scottiejohn]

10 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I would hope that your automatic, zoomy, engineered chargers will charge to the proper level than shut off.   To normal folk like me, I've charged it 100%.  That's all the charger will give it.  To someone who knows battery technology, the charger shuts off at 90% or some other appropriate level.  So it's really semantics.

 

Taking it to an extreme level of semantics, what is 100%?  Is that just before the battery starts smoking? Or is it the level that optimizes battery life?  Or does each vendor use their own definition?  Seems like arguing over it is pretty futile.

 

I totally agree with what you say above.

My point is that telling someone NOT to charge to 100%, as shown by the icon etc, means that most people will look at the battery charging Icon and stop charging when it gets to 90% and below.

I think we are both agreeing that once the "system" believes it has achieved optimum/maximum charging it will then stop charging, do no harm (apart from possible overheating if in an adverse environment) and let the system "run on mains".

 

My second point was also regarding the use/miss-use of "charges" and "charge cycles" which are not always understood and appeared to have been misleading in a previous post.

Edited August 31, 2018 by scottiejohn

[Lacessit]

I know from experience Air Asia are red hot on any batteries in hold luggage. I had to surrender a mosquito racquet in Chiang Mai. Couldn't take it as cabin luggage because then I had two items.

To be on the safe side, I'd suggest putting batteries in cabin luggage, as one never knows how ground staff of any airline are going to interpret the rules.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 4:23 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

Like from a few hundred (or less)  to possibly possibly up to several thousand charges. 

Is also misleading.  A "charge" is NOT the same as a "charge cycle".  All reputable manufacturers only quote "charge cycles" NOT "charges".

Please make sure you quote the correct person. I never wrote the above!

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

I totally agree with what you say above.

My point is that telling someone NOT to charge to 100%, as shown by the icon etc, means that most people will look at the battery charging Icon and stop charging when it gets to 90% and below.

I think we are both agreeing that once the "system" believes it has achieved optimum/maximum charging it will then stop charging, do no harm (apart from possible overheating if in an adverse environment) and let the system "run on mains".

 

My second point was also regarding the use/miss-use of "charges" and "charge cycles" which are not always understood and appeared to have been misleading in a previous post.

I had a Lenovo ThinkPad (don't remember the battery type) and it had two charging modes:

Mode 1 was always charging to 100%

Mode 2 was charging (I think) to somewhere between 95% to 97% - but variable, not always the same.

According to them mode 2 was best for battery life.

The names mode 1 and 2 are from me just to name it something, I am sure they had some fancy names for it.

[The Deerhunter]

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Since when should you NOT fully charge.  The arguments for and against fully charging are charge cycles v running on full v heat of battery in an extreme environment if running on mains.

The consensus from most laptop providers appears to be fully charge if using but keep between 30-75% for transit/storage. 

It apparently a feature to all.L-ion batteries. 100 %and zero to 5 percent kills batteries.  Part charge only can allow a 700 charge cycle battery last several thousand charges. Most electric cars have a battery management system that does it for you making it impossible to put 100%into the system but showing as 100% at between 90 and 95%. Ditto your system lies to you about how low the charge is to protect your multi thousand dollar battery system.  Phones are different.  The market us so competitive that every manufacturer wants to boast about the longest charge you can get.  However a few phone makers lie to you too to protect the battery and reduce warranty problems with welded in batteries.  Phones that are deep cycle charged every day start to typically lose battery capacity after about 2 years, 730 charges.  It is costing Apple millions. You may find that some laptops call a 92% charge 100% Tesla has better batteries than most cars and he says never charge over 95% but people have proved that the cars system will not let the battery overcharge.  18650s are rated at 3.6 to 3.7 volts but a full charge is around 4.2 volts.  For.long life do not charge above 3.95 volts. The charging is not a straight line graph. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by The Deerhunter

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

It apparently a feature to all.L-ion batteries. 100 %and zero to 5 percent kills batteries.  Part charge only can allow a 700 charge cycle battery last several thousand charges. Most electric cars have a battery management system that does it for you making it impossible to put 100%into the system but showing as 100% at between 90 and 95%. Ditto your system lies to you about how low the charge is to protect your multi thousand dollar battery system.  Phones are different.  The market us so competitive that every manufacturer wants to boast about the longest charge you can get.  However a few phone makers lie to you too to protect the battery and reduce warranty problems with welded in batteries.  Phones that are deep cycle charged every day start to typically lose battery capacity after about 2 years, 730 charges.  It is costing Apple millions. You may find that some laptops call a 92% charge 100% Tesla has better batteries than most cars and he says never charge over 95% but people have proved that the cars system will not let the battery overcharge.  18650s are rated at 3.6 to 3.7 volts but a full charge is around 4.2 volts.  For.long life do not charge above 3.95 volts. The charging is not a straight line graph. 

It seems you know what you are talking about.

One additional point is how fast the batteries are charged. Fast charging cost battery life.

I know this from RC batteries which are normally charged with 1C i.e. 2200mAh battery is charges with 2.2A in 1h. It's also possible to charge it with 5A or 10A. But that will decrease the battery life considerably.

Above is just an example for may RC batteries. It depends a lot on the design of the battery how they can be used and charged.

[The Deerhunter]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems you know what you are talking about.

One additional point is how fast the batteries are charged. Fast charging cost battery life.

I know this from RC batteries which are normally charged with 1C i.e. 2200mAh battery is charges with 2.2A in 1h. It's also possible to charge it with 5A or 10A. But that will decrease the battery life considerably.

Above is just an example for may RC batteries. It depends a lot on the design of the battery how they can be used and charged.

Correct, and phone owners want to charge as fast as possible.  I have been boning up on all types of  storage batteries for quite some months now for a project (that I abandoned a week ago) and I have a friend who recycles and grades 18650 L-ion batteries on a commercial scale.    However, Google forwarded me an article a few days ago, obviously based on my many recent search profiles and it was quite exhaustive.  This guy researched what Elon Musk is recorded to have disclosed about their BMS  (battery management systems) and how it protects their batteries.   He then ran numerous experiments based on this and reported on his and others' research and tests.  He even did brave things like drove his Tesla on Zero for quite a while and other things (likely causing some damage to his system) and never ran out of charge to prove that Tesla (and other car makers) BMS lie to you to protect your $10,000 to &20,000 worth of batteries.   I am not sure what the article was called or where it was posted from.  I might have a look and try to find it again but it confirmed everything my friend told me from all his work with recycled 18650's, some of which I didn't believe from my friend. 555.

[OneMoreFarang]

Here is some interesting information about these batteries

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/230155/why-is-there-so-much-fear-surrounding-lipo-batteries

 

 

[Cheops]

21 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Since when should you NOT fully charge.  The arguments for and against fully charging are charge cycles v running on full v heat of battery in an extreme environment if running on mains.

The consensus from most laptop providers appears to be fully charge if using but keep between 30-75% for transit/storage. 

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries 

 

And normally you can take batteries in your carry on bagage except for very powerful powerbanks (>30Ah)

 

And indeed, 100% on your phone is NOT actually 100% and 0% on your phone is not really 0%, as real 0% will damage the battery.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Cheops
add some text

[sometimewoodworker]

On 8/27/2018 at 2:33 PM, NanLaew said:

I need a new battery for my ASUS laptop. I have a friend coming from the US early next month and I can get it on amazon so he hand carries it to Thailand.

Don't forget that if he does not fly direct that the transit country rules will apply if he needs to go through a security check in transit. So while the US rules may permit the battery on board it could be confiscated and disposed of in the transit airport. It would certainly not get through Chinese transit security and probably not Japanese, either.

 

You would be better advised to get amazon to send it to Thailand, its then thier problem.

[jippytum]

Travelling domestic Thailand 100% no batteries in checked bags 

[GreasyFingers]

Op, do not even think about buying an ASUS battery here or Lazada as they have so many different models with very slight changes. I sourced a cheap copy that did not fit exactly so sent a photo of the battery to ASUS Thailand and they sent the same as the cheap one. Just two of the small plastic lugs were different even though the computer was purchased here.

 

I had to buy one in Australia (and expensive), but took the computer to their service center in Sydney to make sure it fitted.

[GreasyFingers]

On 8/27/2018 at 2:33 PM, NanLaew said:

Thanks!

NL

Just noticed your post was on Monday so you might not check it now, so read the above.