BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

Just now, marcusarelus said:

What country was the bank in?  If Thailand what bank?

i think that now any bank in europe or the US is asking his customers to sign similar forms.

question is, what legal power have such a self declaration?

i am especially worried about sigining such a document in thailnd, cause i consider it an especially corrupt country.

 

[ubonjoe]

A post in all capital letters has been removed.

[wayned]

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

he Us Embassy and many others also have a blank affidavit in which a person writes in  a statement and swears to it under Oath just like the income letter.  The income letter was developed as a courtesy to applicants but one could simply use a blank affidavit and write in- I, the undersigned  have a monthly income/yearly of XXX Amount from the following sources (list them)   The embassy signs the form under Oath. One could take this to Thai Imm with  a Pension letter; a social security or Veterans Disability letter and the bank account statement- 3 months printout clearly showing  the amounts in and debits out or if one transfer money where it goes.  A further backup is  ATM cards from your overseas bank as well as ATM slips.

 

I have used the blank affidavit to state income related things and support income for such entities as the US Internal Revenue service; a Private Pension Provider ; a US Court and simply to make a statement under Oath for another matter. All were accepted as genuine and true.  Maybe they checked further on the US end but no matter- simply like the Thai Imm can check further by perusing multiple documents

 

The blank Affidavit is no different than the Income affidavit in what it means.  None of the documentation attached to it is "accepted and certified as being true", nor do they check anything.  They are only certifying your signature that you have sworn that the documentation is true, they are not certifying the documentation.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

Just now, Thaidream said:

Only a lawyer can answer that question..

I AM sure lawyers can answer many questions, but we are here trying to save money on lawyers...

[Shoeless Joe]

16 hours ago, giddyup said:

If applying for the first time it has to be seasoned for 2 months. I see the same question has been answered three times. Is that definitive enough for you?

No need to get snippy now...I only asked the question once, I can't stop people replying!

 

Joe

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, Shoeless Joe said:

No need to get snippy now...I only asked the question once, I can't stop people replying!

 

Joe

No, your same question was repeated 3 times.

[Esso49]

1 hour ago, Expattaff1308 said:

here is the email to complain about the consular service or in this case lack of it.

http://[email protected]

done a long time ago. I was most likely the first.

[luckyluke]

According to Wikipedia :

 

"Perjury is the intentional act of swearing a false oath

 or falsifying an affirmation to tell the truth,

whether spoken or in writing, concerning matters material to an official proceeding." 

Edited October 24, 2018 by luckyluke

[Shoeless Joe]

7 minutes ago, giddyup said:

No, your same question was repeated 3 times.

Yes, by the people who replied...NOT by me

 

Joe

 

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

 

bangkok bank

It appears you are alone as the no one else has ever been asked for net worth or income when opening an account.  Why did you make it up?

[Mike Teavee]

6 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

It appears you are alone as the no one else has ever been asked for net worth or income when opening an account.  Why did you make it up?

I wasn't asked for my exact net worth / Income but was asked to select which range I feel into for both when opening my Bangkok Bank Account so maybe that's what @SCOTT FITZGERSLDmeant.

 

This was in June, maybe a relatively recent thing?

 

[wayned]

9 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

It appears you are alone as the no one else has ever been asked for net worth or income when opening an account.  Why did you make it up?

I've had 5 Bangkok Bank accounts two of which are now closed.  I don't remember ever being asked about my income o, net worth or range of income when I opened them. I remember signing the documents and the bank clerk filling in most of the details on the form with back up data that I supplied, but that's been a while, the last account being opened about 4 tears ago.

[blackhorse]

I wasn't asked for my exact net worth / Income but was asked to select which range I feel into for both when opening my Bangkok Bank Account so maybe that's what [mention=284574]SCOTT FITZGERSLD[/mention]meant.
 
This was in June, maybe a relatively recent thing?
 

No way. Having opened accounts in 3 different countries and 3 in Thailand I have never been asked my net worth. That would be discrimination and completely unverifiable anyway

[wayned]

I spoke to my IO last Tuesday at the Nokhon Sawan Office when did my yearly retirement extension using thge Income Affidavit from the US Embassy that I had obtained that morning.  No backup was required.  We discussed the UK problem and she basically said that they will contiue to accept the income letters until the law is changed to say different.  She went on to say that they will not require any backup data unless their head office, Chiang Mai, instructs them to do so.

 

The Vice Consul at the us Embassy said that the Income Affidavit system was "under investigation".  She went on to say that the letter did not confirm that they had checked that the amount on the letter was correct, the only thing that it confirmed was that I had swore under oath that was the amount.  She said that the US Embassy does not and will not certify any documentation provided to them was true other than a US Passport. 

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, blackhorse said:

No way. Having opened accounts in 3 different countries and 3 in Thailand I have never been asked my net worth. That would be discrimination and completely unverifiable anyway
 

Having worked in Banking (albeit in IT) for 30 years & currently holding multiple accounts in the UK/Singapore as well as my Bangkok Bank account, I find nothing strange about asking these questions they're just used to profile you so the Banks can better identify products that might be appropriate to you (or more accurately, products they can sell to you).

 

The information would only need to be "Verified" if the Bank was providing you with Products based on what you claimed which they don't/won't. E.g. CItibank Singapore won't give you CItGold because you ticked a box to say you have > s$250,000 SGD in investable assets, you need to deposit (& maintain) those assets with them (pretty solid proof that you do).

 

It could well be that the questions were optional (I didn't have time to go from Branch to Branch hunting for one that would let me open an account on a 30 day Visa Exempt stamp so paid Siam Legal to assist me & they completed all of the forms) but I wasn't surprised to be asked those types of questions & can see how they would help the Bank to profile me & better identify suitable products for (to sell to) me.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Apologies have gone well OT here, this is the last I will post on this particular thread fork...

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Mike Teavee
Realised I was well OT

[Tanoshi]

19 hours ago, Thaidream said:

BE's excuse that Thai Imm believes they are certifying income is ridiculous-  an affidavit system sworn to by a participant would suffice as long as an Oath is taken.  Instead BE has found a way out oi having to do the letter instead of simply doing an Affidavit and letting Thai Imm decide if they will continue to accept the letter or change the law and issue a new police order.

Thai Immigration want income 'verifying'.

Neither a 'Stat Dec', an 'affidavit', or a POI from the BE 'verifies' your income.

 

 

19 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The  situation can be resolved between any Embassy and Thai Imm by sitting down and explaining the concept of Data Protection and  Privacy Acts of various countries. . 

Do you believe Thai Immigration are concerned with excuses or the laws in Europe, US, Australia.

Your in Thailand, only their laws apply here.

 

Letters from your private pension providers etc, can be 'verified', but not by the BE.

There are procedures already in place to 'verify' the authenticity and content of documents from overseas to be 'legalised' for use in Thailand. It's costly and time consuming and certainly not the way forward to 'verify' income annually.

[Expattaff1308]

If they want to go down the road of 40/65 deposits a month into a Thai account, this is easily verified by a bank letter similar to the 400/800k letter stating that Mr Expat has deposited 400/800k Thai Baht into his account over the last 12 mths which equates to 40/65k per month. (divided by 12 or the months you have been in Thailand) Backed up as they do now with with seasoned cash showing your Bank Book.

One has to wonder why this hasnt been suggested by the BE (though I dont think they understand the process of gaining an extension) or even by Immigration then this will alleviate all needs for embassy letters and meet the requirements to show an average income over the year which equates to the sums required by Immigration.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

 

One has to wonder why this hasnt been suggested by the BE (though I dont think they understand the process of gaining an extension) or even by Immigration then this will alleviate all needs for embassy letters and meet the requirements to show an average income over the year which equates to the sums required by Immigration.

The BE have no interest in finding a solution. They made the decision in their own interests for their own reasons. The fallout doesn't concern them. Find your own solutions, the BE isn't going to do it for you. You are less significant to them than a pimple on their backsides.

 

Exactly the same for TI except that they don't even think that they created the problem and you aren't a Thai citizen.

 

We are on our own in this.

[yang123]

23 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Who is it?  You seem to know. 

My e-mails on this topic have been answered by "Stacey" (no position given) and Sara Peth, Deputy Consul and Head of Operations.  Both likely to be locally-engaged employees.

 

The current 1st Secretary (HM Consul) is Paul Kaye, recently arrived and interviewed here: 

 

[blackhorse]

Amazing thread. The Thais have not changed anything and the BE is to blame for ripping apart of families that don't have 800k. Most of the pensioners have never seen 800k back home in 1st world in their lives

They come here because they are poor and I hope they will at least have the 20 k budget carrier back home.

I also hope people are making alternative plans now for the future
The BE is not going to wave a magic wand and make it all better. That's for fairy tale bed time stories

[Joe Mcseismic]

So many posters just not fully understanding what has happened.

 

The British embassy have stopped these letters because Thai Immigration think that they verify a citizen's income and they want the BE to check further into whether the stated income is true, or not.

The letter does not do the first and the BE can't do the second. Therefore, continuing to issue these letters would be misleading the Thai IO at best and could be construed as doubtfully legal at worst.

The embassy has seen that there is an alternative to get these extensions and that is via the lump sum method. Whether people using the previous income method cannot afford the lump sum method is of no concern to the BE.

People harping on that other embassys are still doing the letters. These letters are different. All they say is that the person signing has proved that they are who they say they are and that if Thai IO want to believe that it verifies the facts that the signatory has attested to, then, so be it.

As far as I can see, the BE is being the most honest.

 

The next step is to convince Thai IO to accept certifying letters from the bank for the income method in place of the embassy letter. Exactly the same as the lump sum method.

The Thai IO can either say "yes" in which case, problem solved, or, they say "no", in which case everyone will have to go the lump sum method. The ball is firmly in their court.

 

The petition is laughable. Firstly, it won't even get an eighth of the intended target. Secondly, it won't be acted on because the BE has a legitimate reason to stop the letters.

 

As for all the conspiracy theorists claiming there is "more to the story" than is being said, or, that it's a cost cutting exercise at the expense of their citizens (no proof), I've got two words for you Occam's Razor.

 

I understand that some people are going to potentially have real problems over this and I do sympathize, but, lashing out and laying blame where it doesn't belong, doesn't achieve anything and is also unfair to the people that are being blamed.

 

So........what's a realistic plan to get Thai IO to respond to your concerns? Because that is the only realistic way forward to achieve results; to know one way, or the other if you can continue staying in Thailand with your families, or not.

[Spidey]

20 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

So many posters just not fully understanding what has happened.

 

The British embassy have stopped these letters because Thai Immigration think that they verify a citizen's income and they want the BE to check further into whether the stated income is true, or not.

The letter does not do the first and the BE can't do the second. Therefore, continuing to issue these letters would be misleading the Thai IO at best and could be construed as doubtfully legal at worst.

The embassy has seen that there is an alternative to get these extensions and that is via the lump sum method. Whether people using the previous income method cannot afford the lump sum method is of no concern to the BE.

People harping on that other embassys are still doing the letters. These letters are different. All they say is that the person signing has proved that they are who they say they are and that if Thai IO want to believe that it verifies the facts that the signatory has attested to, then, so be it.

As far as I can see, the BE is being the most honest.

 

The next step is to convince Thai IO to accept certifying letters from the bank for the income method in place of the embassy letter. Exactly the same as the lump sum method.

The Thai IO can either say "yes" in which case, problem solved, or, they say "no", in which case everyone will have to go the lump sum method. The ball is firmly in their court.

 

The petition is laughable. Firstly, it won't even get an eighth of the intended target. Secondly, it won't be acted on because the BE has a legitimate reason to stop the letters.

 

As for all the conspiracy theorists claiming there is "more to the story" than is being said, or, that it's a cost cutting exercise at the expense of their citizens (no proof), I've got two words for you Occam's Razor.

 

I understand that some people are going to potentially have real problems over this and I do sympathize, but, lashing out and laying blame where it doesn't belong, doesn't achieve anything and is also unfair to the people that are being blamed.

 

So........what's a realistic plan to get Thai IO to respond to your concerns? Because that is the only realistic way forward to achieve results; to know one way, or the other if you can continue staying in Thailand with your families, or not.

All very well if the British Embassy had decided to stop issuing the letters. According to the BE the decision was made by the FCO in London as the result of an audit report.

 

An audit can take many forms but is usually performed by accountants carrying out a cost reduction exercise.

 

Also significant that a number of other notary services were cut at the same time.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Spidey

[Joe Mcseismic]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

All very well if the British Embassy had decided to stop issuing the letters. According to the BE the decision was made by the FCO in London as the result of an audit report.

 

An audit can take many forms but is usually performed by accountants carrying out a cost reduction exercise.

 

Also significant that a number of other notary services were cut at the same time.

Only one single poster has claimed that. Therefore, I prefer to believe the BE explanation, which seems far more likely and more believable.

[blackhorse]

So many posters just not fully understanding what has happened.
 
The British embassy have stopped these letters because Thai Immigration think that they verify a citizen's income and they want the BE to check further into whether the stated income is true, or not.
The letter does not do the first and the BE can't do the second. Therefore, continuing to issue these letters would be misleading the Thai IO at best and could be construed as doubtfully legal at worst.
The embassy has seen that there is an alternative to get these extensions and that is via the lump sum method. Whether people using the previous income method cannot afford the lump sum method is of no concern to the BE.
People harping on that other embassys are still doing the letters. These letters are different. All they say is that the person signing has proved that they are who they say they are and that if Thai IO want to believe that it verifies the facts that the signatory has attested to, then, so be it.
As far as I can see, the BE is being the most honest.
 
The next step is to convince Thai IO to accept certifying letters from the bank for the income method in place of the embassy letter. Exactly the same as the lump sum method.
The Thai IO can either say "yes" in which case, problem solved, or, they say "no", in which case everyone will have to go the lump sum method. The ball is firmly in their court.
 
The petition is laughable. Firstly, it won't even get an eighth of the intended target. Secondly, it won't be acted on because the BE has a legitimate reason to stop the letters.
 
As for all the conspiracy theorists claiming there is "more to the story" than is being said, or, that it's a cost cutting exercise at the expense of their citizens (no proof), I've got two words for you Occam's Razor.
 
I understand that some people are going to potentially have real problems over this and I do sympathize, but, lashing out and laying blame where it doesn't belong, doesn't achieve anything and is also unfair to the people that are being blamed.
 
So........what's a realistic plan to get Thai IO to respond to your concerns? Because that is the only realistic way forward to achieve results; to know one way, or the other if you can continue staying in Thailand with your families, or not.

All the BE HAS to do is issue a stat dec which shifts the responsibility back to the expat.
There are reports that they are using stat dec in Vietnam.
Problem solved. So there is obviously reason for them to to not even consider it. I could walk into the oz embassy tomorrow and pick up 20 blank stat decs and then hand them over to the BE except without a brit passport I have no chance of getting in.

[Mike Teavee]

23 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

So many posters just not fully understanding what has happened.

 

The British embassy have stopped these letters because Thai Immigration think that they verify a citizen's income and they want the BE to check further into whether the stated income is true, or not.

The letter does not do the first and the BE can't do the second. Therefore, continuing to issue these letters would be misleading the Thai IO at best and could be construed as doubtfully legal at worst.

The embassy has seen that there is an alternative to get these extensions and that is via the lump sum method. Whether people using the previous income method cannot afford the lump sum method is of no concern to the BE.

People harping on that other embassys are still doing the letters. These letters are different. All they say is that the person signing has proved that they are who they say they are and that if Thai IO want to believe that it verifies the facts that the signatory has attested to, then, so be it.

As far as I can see, the BE is being the most honest.

 

The next step is to convince Thai IO to accept certifying letters from the bank for the income method in place of the embassy letter. Exactly the same as the lump sum method.

The Thai IO can either say "yes" in which case, problem solved, or, they say "no", in which case everyone will have to go the lump sum method. The ball is firmly in their court.

 

The petition is laughable. Firstly, it won't even get an eighth of the intended target. Secondly, it won't be acted on because the BE has a legitimate reason to stop the letters.

 

As for all the conspiracy theorists claiming there is "more to the story" than is being said, or, that it's a cost cutting exercise at the expense of their citizens (no proof), I've got two words for you Occam's Razor.

 

I understand that some people are going to potentially have real problems over this and I do sympathize, but, lashing out and laying blame where it doesn't belong, doesn't achieve anything and is also unfair to the people that are being blamed.

 

So........what's a realistic plan to get Thai IO to respond to your concerns? Because that is the only realistic way forward to achieve results; to know one way, or the other if you can continue staying in Thailand with your families, or not.

Nice summary of the facts & I for 1 100% agree with you.

 

I do hope that a solution can be found for people who have lived here for many years using the income method, especially ones with families here as if they cannot afford to put 800/400K in the Bank then they're not going to be able to afford to be able to take their families back to the UK.

 

I've got zero sympathy for people who claim they can afford to deposit 800K but don't on the basis that they don't trust Thai Banks (Deposits are guaranteed up to 1M THB) or feel they can get better returns on the monies (Need to get priorities straight, staying with your family is worth more than the 40K THB pa or so additional return).

 

For anybody planning their retirement this should serve as a wake up call (+ I've no doubt that an increase to the 800/400K is on the cards at some point in the not too distant future) & plan accordingly 

 

Good luck to all...

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

21 minutes ago, Spidey said:

All very well if the British Embassy had decided to stop issuing the letters. According to the BE the decision was made by the FCO in London as the result of an audit report.

 

An audit can take many forms but is usually performed by accountants carrying out a cost reduction exercise.

 

Also significant that a number of other notary services were cut at the same time.

Can you provide a link to the comment from BE that an Audit Report triggered this as my understanding is it came about as a result of a meeting between Thai Immigration & all Embassies where TI asked for better verification of Income before providing Income statements.

 

As far as I'm aware, apart from the BE, all other Embassies do not provide Income Letters (they just provide Stat Decs) so had no onus on them to do anything more & BE decided that they couldn't comply so would stop issuing the letters.

 

If anything this will cause a hole in their budget as at £50 (+ £2 P&P) they should be making a profit.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[blackhorse]

Some people are really pushing our survey since I shared it in some Brit Expat groups on FB yesterday... its gone up about 100 signatures in 24 hours ...I will try to share more on FB when I have chance.. its got 6 months to reach 10K lol
 
If we did reach 10K do you think they could just ignore us?  
 
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

Once the initial rush of friends and family starts to flatline you are left with the general public who could care less about 70 year old perverts chasing 20 year old hookers.
I wish you the best and it's noble thing you are doing.

[Joe Mcseismic]

4 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

All the BE HAS to do is issue a stat dec which shifts the responsibility back to the expat.
There are reports that they are using stat dec in Vietnam.
Problem solved. So there is obviously reason for them to to not even consider it. I could walk into the oz embassy tomorrow and pick up 20 blank stat decs and then hand them over to the BE except without a brit passport I have no chance of getting in.

Will the stat dec gaurantee the verification of the income? No? Then the BE won't issue one.

[Joe Mcseismic]

13 minutes ago, richiejom said:

Actually the petition has got nearly 300 signatures in the first week and its allowed to run for 6 months ...so how many weeks in 6 months? (24?) that works out potentially 8000 signatures if people keep pushing it

 

If there was no potential for action in the petition they wouldn't have approved it..in the past I see if the decision is final they refuse the petition to go live.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

Dream on........

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Can you provide a link to the comment from BE that an Audit Report triggered this as my understanding is it came about as a result of a meeting between all Thai Immigration & all Embassies where TI asked for better verification of Income before providing Income statements.

 

As far as I'm aware, apart from the BE, all other Embassies do not provide Income Letters (they just provide Stat Decs) so had no onus on them to do anything more & BE decided that they couldn't comply so would stop issuing the letters.

 

If anything this will cause a hole in their budget as at £50 (+ £2 P&P) they should be making a profit.

The announcement that the decision was the result of a FCO audit was made in a radio interview with a BE official. This interview appears at the beginning of a related topic.

 

It's said that the letters were break even and didn't generate a profit.

 

If you trawl through all the topics on this subject, I think that you will find that other European embassies do indeed use a similar process to BE to verify their citizen's incomes.