Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Expattaff1308]

5 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

How do you know that?

From a guy in Udon on another site

I was in town Thursday so called into immigration to ask what my options were once the British Embassy stop the confirmation of income letter. I was told only one option, letter from the bank showing money in the bank. There will be no more monthly income option. When she then told me I could also get a 30 day extension I began to suspect she didn't have a clue what I was talking about and that I had wasted my time.

[Exploring Thailand]

12 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

He now owes it to everyone to follow up that interview with the BE with another with all the questions being posed in this thread so there is total clarity. If poss get Thai immigration present too so she can’t mislead. 

 

Something TV can organise? 

I'd like to see the mods open a thread "What questions do you want to put to the UK Ambassador". In the thread you can only post a question, exactly as you would like it to be put to the ambassador, followed by background info if necessary. All non-question posts are deleted. The questions with the most likes are put to the Ambassador,or whichever spokesperson does the interview. The interviewer, whoever s/he is can follow up the question, but the initial question comes from the TV thread.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Exploring Thailand

[Jip99]

59 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Tell that to the children and their parents. Grow a set and report him.

 

My set have grown.... and dropped.

 

Read my post again...I don’t know the guy, I said that I am aware of him and his activities....

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jip99

[sambum]

49 minutes ago, jimn said:

I too listened to the full 18 minutes and I am not confused. I am just totally bemused at the ignorance of the BE spokes lady on how it works in really. No Immigration Office anywhere in Thailand accepts the 65,000 THB income method without the income letter from the BE. It is complete ignorance for her to assume that Thai Immigration will begin to accept Thai or Foreign bank statements as proof. Its not going to happen without a complete overhaul. The BE cannot dictate to Thai Immigration what they can accept.

I have been getting Proof of Income letters to support my application for years and it is one of the first things that Immigration ask for.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned before in this thread, or the other 2 that are running, but my letter has always been based on funds paid into my UK bank account, and that has always been accepted by Immigration. However, they did expect me to also have a Thai bank account, but the actual amount deposited seemed to be of no interest to them at all, as my 800,000 baht a year income was already covered by the letter from the Embassy. 

 

However, what is now being bandied about is that because the Embassy are going to stop issuing the letters, the income now has to be shown as going into a THAI bank account - and has to have been going in for 12 months!!! An impossible task to complete before my next extension is due, and no doubt I will be told that my other option is to deposit 800,000 baht into a Thai bank 3 months before my extension is due. What if I don't have access to that kind of money? I am getting the required amount over a year to satisfy the requirements but to lay my hands on it immediately is a different matter, and I think many people will be in the same boat.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by sambum

[PEE TEE]

Am i to understand that a combination of the two amounts if in a Thai bank do not count now . as before it did  ie . 400.00 in an account for more than 3 months and a income in a thai bank of 32.500 and month for a single person 

[Kadilo]

1 minute ago, Exploring Thailand said:

I'd like to see the mods open a thread "What questions do you want to put to the UK Ambassador". In the thread you can only post a question, exactly as you would like it to be put to the ambassador, followed by background info if necessary. All non-question posts are deleted. The questions with the most likes are put to the Ambassador. The interviewer, whoever s/he is can follow up the question, but the initial question comes from the TV thread.

Kind of what I was alluding to. It’s a natural next step. The seeds have been sowed which is good but there are massive holes in what the BE are saying they need to be filled. 

I personally am also mindful that us Brits need to be careful what we wish for in terms of not undermining other nationalities and their process

 

[jimn]

7 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

How do you know that?

Sorry but you are being pedantic. Obviously I cant prove that. But there are currently 4 treads running on TV about this issue with hundreds of posts. Not 1 person has said " hold on here, my local office will issue a retirement extension based on evidence of 65,000 THB income without a BE letter". The silence is defening.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, sambum said:

I have been getting Proof of Income letters to support my application for years and it is one of the first things that Immigration ask for.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned before in this thread, or the other 2 that are running, but my letter has always been based on funds paid into my UK bank account, and that has always been accepted by Immigration. However, they did expect me to also have a Thai bank account, but the actual amount deposited seemed to be of no interest to them at all, as my 800,000 baht a year income was already covered by the letter from the Embassy. 

 

However, what is now being bandied about is that because the Embassy are going to stop issuing the letters, the income now has to be shown as going into a THAI bank account - and has to have been going in for 12 months!!! An impossible task to complete before my next extension is due, and no doubt I will be told that my other option is to deposit 800,000 baht into a Thai bank 3 months before my extension is due. What if I don't have access to that kind of money? I am getting the required amount over a year to satisfy the requirements but to lay my hands on it immediately is a different matter, and I think many people will be in the same boat.

 

 

Yes that would represent an extremely onerous change for many.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, jimn said:

Sorry but you are being pedantic. Obviously I cant prove that. But there are currently 4 treads running on TV about this issue with hundreds of posts. Not 1 person has said " hold on here, my local office will issue a retirement extension based on evidence of 65,000 THB income without a BE letter". The silence is defening.

I've been reading and posting to this forum for dog's years. Not one report ever of such an accepted income application without a letter. Yet the British Embassy is trying to promote that it's common. BIZARRE!

[kingstonkid]

There is nothing  new to most non Brit or American. I have been here  8 years and it has always  been the same Make copies of last 3/4 months  bank statement sign an affidavit saying that the info is correct

Pay my money get my letter

 

Go to immigration show the letter and the bank statements

 

Get my stamp. 

 

this can be verified by immigration  asking to see the bank records on line

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The crazy fact is, is that Thai Immigration insist on a letter from embassy's of all nationalities that doesn't prove a thing.

 

Yes but it was/is a long established system that satisfied everyone involved, until someone started causing problems lately.

 

Thai Immigration got the income certifications they wanted, all nice and stamped by the various Embassies. The Embassies got their nice fees, and supported their citizens in the process. And all of us have been able to obtain our extensions every year and stay in the country.

 

So just who was it in this case who dumped their stinky c**p on our nice clean new white carpet?

 

[Russell17au]

35 minutes ago, meechai said:

It was 100% a loophole...You know it...I know it & Now Thai IMM knows it

 

If you cant show  in Thailand accessible 800K as a single retired expat...They know you cant show it in an emergency

Thailand stuck on the hook for too many in the past now they  are awake

 

This loophole was like saying...Oh I have lots of money...Just not on me 555

 

Yeah took awhile but jig is up

Utter rubbish, you do not know what you are talking about. There is no loophole all because a person chooses to keep their money invested in their home country or any other country and only brings into Thailand what they want or need it is a loophole. As for an emergency I can have in access of $1,000,000 transferred to my Thai bank account within 12 hours. You are living in a dreamworld of your own and Thailand should not bend to change their Immigration act to suit the British Embassy.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, sambum said:

I have been getting Proof of Income letters to support my application for years and it is one of the first things that Immigration ask for.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned before in this thread, or the other 2 that are running, but my letter has always been based on funds paid into my UK bank account, and that has always been accepted by Immigration. However, they did expect me to also have a Thai bank account, but the actual amount deposited seemed to be of no interest to them at all, as my 800,000 baht a year income was already covered by the letter from the Embassy. 

 

However, what is now being bandied about is that because the Embassy are going to stop issuing the letters, the income now has to be shown as going into a THAI bank account - and has to have been going in for 12 months!!! An impossible task to complete before my next extension is due, and no doubt I will be told that my other option is to deposit 800,000 baht into a Thai bank 3 months before my extension is due. What if I don't have access to that kind of money? I am getting the required amount over a year to satisfy the requirements but to lay my hands on it immediately is a different matter, and I think many people will be in the same boat.

 

 

A problem that I also have

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, PEE TEE said:

Am i to understand that a combination of the two amounts if in a Thai bank do not count now . as before it did  ie . 400.00 in an account for more than 3 months and a income in a thai bank of 32.500 and month for a single person 

The British embassy lady didn't mention that and neither did the interviewer. Which begs the question, does she even know that option exists in the first place?

[Exploring Thailand]

 

4 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Read my post again...I don’t know the guy, I said that I am aware of him and his activities....

 

This is what you wrote. Then, when somebody said you should report him you said you wouldn't because you were no snitch. If you are aware of someone procuring under-age girls, you need to report that to the authorities.

 

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

I am aware of another who probably has 10x the 800,000 Baht retirement extension money in the bank. Welcomed by the authorities with open arms. Unfortunately, he is a nasty piece of work and uses his money to procure the services of under-age girls.

[stropper]

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

No they don't.  They let you lie and say you have the income and you sign it and they sign that you signed it.

you are spot on, most no mon so no more fun, this is about time,here at udon thani 18000 bart for a retirement visa and most of the users have insufficient funds to be in thailand, ferang sellers, piss the bludgers out of here!

[Joe Mcseismic]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It doesn't have to, it fulfils the letter(pardon the pun) of the law and is nice and easy for the IO, now the BE is rocking the boat.

No, it doesn't fulfill the letter of the law. It does not prove income. That's why the BE is not going to issue them any more. They are worried about liability. If it fulfilled the law, there wouldn't be a problem.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

There is nothing  new to most non Brit or American. I have been here  8 years and it has always  been the same Make copies of last 3/4 months  bank statement sign an affidavit saying that the info is correct

Pay my money get my letter

 

Go to immigration show the letter and the bank statements

 

Get my stamp. 

 

this can be verified by immigration  asking to see the bank records on line

Sounds like you're talking about a bank account application.

They have never required an income letter.

This here issue is about INCOME BASED applications.

Embassy letters have always been required.

[wgdanson]

2 hours ago, giddyup said:

If you are paying 65K into your Thai bank account every month but only spending 40K a month, it won't take long for that account to increase significantly. Or do they expect you to spend every satang of the 65K?

Not at all, and if your account is increasing at 25k per month, ie 300k a year, in three years you will have 900k, so no need for income. Simple!

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

 

 

This is what you wrote. Then, when somebody said you should report him you said you wouldn't because you were no snitch. If you are aware of someone procuring under-age girls, you need to report that to the authorities.

 

 

You are flogging a dead horse.

 

A name would obviously help in reporting such a situation.

 

Keep trolling if you wish, but this persons circumstances were simply used as a comparison......

[Thaidream]

30 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

The Thai government has said that the BE must verify that the income the applicant is claiming is actually true. The BE MUST verify it.

This is impossible for the BE to comply with. If the Thai authorities prove that an applicant has lied, yet, they still have the BE letter certifying

Since when does one government tell another government what they have to do.  They might ASK them to do it but the UK is a sovereign country and they have chosen to 'throw out the baby with the bath water'.  They are using this request as an excuse to stop providing this letter for their citizens as they can save money by not doing it. It's quite clear from the interview.

 

As an American what I resent is the BE attempting to say that Americans are also affected.  Really-  The Us Embassy may have been  asked the same  of the Thai Imm but the US has responded to its citizens by stating the letter will continue for the foreseeable future while the issue is being studied.

 

The BE Embassy is also attempting to tell the Thai Imm what they should accept from  applicants which is very narrow and shows a complete lack of understanding the Thai Imm Act of 1979 and the Police Order of 2014.  They should be asking the Thai Imm office to accept a verity of documentation  to prove monthly income rather than trying to force Thai Imm to have people transfer funds to a Thai bank account on a monthly basis.  The Thai police order even now doesn't say that  with or without an Embassy letter.

 

If as British subjects- you agree with your Embassies actions- that is of course your prerogative. I and other Nationalities as well as some British  citizens  have differing viewpoints.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

16 minutes ago, futsukayoi said:

 It is totally impractical for them to check and confirm the validity of all that even if they were willing to put in the massive resources and expenditure it would require.  I don't like having 800,000 baht sitting in an account here but if that is what the Thai's insist on I do it to stay here

 

 

I didn't make the rules or the system. Thai Immigration did, and for ages has allowed a method of Embassy income letters documenting monthly income earned OUTSIDE Thailand, not just 800K in the bank.

 

A dozen threads and thousands of posts later, it still remains unclear just who is causing a problem for the current monthly income system as it now exists under the rules created by and long used by Thai Immigration.

[Suradit69]

3 hours ago, TeaMonkey said:

Until all the immigration offices have a written exception clause that British citizens can just show bank statements 

An exception for British citizens ?? In other words discriminate against citizens of all other countries. Right. That will have broader diplomatic consequences and kick off a new version of the Me Too campaign.

[Joe Mcseismic]

9 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yes but it was/is a long established system that satisfied everyone involved, until someone started causing problems lately.

 

Thai Immigration got the income certifications they wanted, all nice and stamped by the various Embassies. The Embassies got their nice fees, and supported their citizens in the process. And all of us have been able to obtain our extensions every year and stay in the country.

 

So just who was it in this case who dumped their stinky c**p on our nice clean new white carpet?

 

Immigration by demanding that the BE verify the claims.

[Runamile]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

You don't get it.

The status quo is that for income based applications full import (monthly or whatever) of full claimed income has NEVER been required.

The British embassy is suggesting a very negative change in that policy in lieu of embassy letters.

You can enjoy your smug cuppas all you like, but the British embassy has opened a CAN OF WORMS. 

Thank heavens someone gets it! The further points are who on earth wants their money tied into the soft, globally useless currency of a politically unstable country? Finally, is 65K Baht a month a relevant amount of money for you to bring in other than in terms of the Immigration requirement? Non-drinking, non-smoking, not eating out, single relationship avoider that I am it makes zit sense for me - but that doesn't mean that globally I have haven't income and immediate access to it of many multiples of 65K Baht.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Runamile

[Exploring Thailand]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

A name would obviously help in reporting such a situation.

You clearly know who you were referring to, even if you don't know his name. You were referring to a specific individual with a certain amount in a bank account. You know enough about him to point the authorities in his direction. No more from me on this. It's between you and your conscience. 

[bkkcanuck8]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're playing philosophy games.

I'm talking about actual RULES.

Thailand immigration has NEVER required full import of claimed income (in the letters) into Thailand either annually or monthly.

Thailand immigration has NEVER as well required a particular level of spending.

I agree of course they would prefer that we all spend here like wild banshees.

But this is about RULES. 

It is not philosophy games.  Usually before there is regulations or laws you have an intent on what the law / regulation will do.  If it turns out that it is not doing what it is suppose to be doing - you go back and you change the RULES.  The immigration finds out that the verification letter is not doing what it is suppose to be doing - and people are lying and not having verifiable income... they change the rules... in the end the non-immigrant (retirement) visa is nothing more than "long stay" tourist visa...  not permanent residency... they can and will change the rules to suit what they want out of it.  For some people, this may mean leaving and going back home or somewhere else.

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, csmith said:

I've been doing the marriage (spouse) Visa extension for the last 15 years (in Chiangmai) and have NEVER used a letter from the Brit Embassy/Consulate … I just show Immigration my Bank Book with Baht 400,000 BUT … I do also have to show a confirmation letter from Bangkok Bank (they charge Baht100) that I do have the funds. 

BTW .. The is no Brit Embassy or Consulate in Chiangmai.

 

As usual in Thailand, they apply the rules when they want to. The fact that some offices demand it and some don't could change in a heartbeat, for example if a new office head takes over and enforces an existing rule. More likely than not, I'd say.

I will continue to get my usual marriage multi O visa and leave the country every 90 days. I've never bothered with extensions and see no real need to, and I'm lucky that I live less than two hours from Mukdahan/Savannakhet.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, aonangkrabi said:

Now they verify. It is very simple: I just show the yearly income statements from my pension funds or I show my income tax declaration. It can be checked in a minute or so and the Embassy gets € 50 for the declaration. The Embassy makes some money this way. I don't understand why the UK Embassy can't do likewise.

This procedure is exactly what the BE is currently doing by mail order and will stop doing at the end of this year.

 

The sticking point may be in what the BE calls 'verification', the Immigration office calls 'verification' and what te DE calls 'verification'.

 

It appears that to all intents and purposes, it isn't the same thing.

 

PS: May I ask if there is any legal disclaimer as to the provenance and legal validity of the DE printed letter on the income letter itself?

Edited October 13, 2018 by NanLaew

[Kadilo]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Since when does one government tell another government what they have to do.  They might ASK them to do it but the UK is a sovereign country and they have chosen to 'throw out the baby with the bath water'.  They are using this request as an excuse to stop providing this letter for their citizens as they can save money by not doing it. It's quite clear from the interview.

 

As an American what I resent is the BE attempting to say that Americans are also affected.  Really-  The Us Embassy may have been  asked the same  of the Thai Imm but the US has responded to its citizens by stating the letter will continue for the foreseeable future while the issue is being studied.

 

The BE Embassy is also attempting to tell the Thai Imm what they should accept from  applicants which is very narrow and shows a complete lack of understanding the Thai Imm Act of 1979 and the Police Order of 2014.  They should be asking the Thai Imm office to accept a verity of documentation  to prove monthly income rather than trying to force Thai Imm to have people transfer funds to a Thai bank account on a monthly basis.  The Thai police order even now doesn't say that  with or without an Embassy letter.

 

If as British subjects- you agree with your Embassies actions- that is of course your prerogative. I and other Nationalities as well as some British  citizens  have differing viewpoints.

Pretty well summed up. It was clear from her interview that it’s all about cost cutting as is most things from

Our current government. 

They have done some kind of study and found a reason to stop what they consider a costly time consuming exercise in the false belief that you can find other ways of verifying monthly income. Whether they believe  why she said re statements is open for debate but it’s clear they can’t be left to just issue a load of “facts” which are clearly at best misleading. 

It requires following up and addressing formally with TI and either put to bed or BE put right. 

Until then we will just go round in bigger circles.