UK Embassy Letters - The Way Forward.

[Esso49]

3 hours ago, wgdanson said:

It has been this same format for the last four years that I know of, and to be honest I never really read what it said. But with all this palaver I decided to read it. What a load of cobblers it is.

Absolutely.  Because the BE are lazy they went down this route rather then for us to have to pay a visit and present our documents.   Used to be a day when they would only except originals.  Guess even the BE finally resorted to allowing the scammers and hence accepting emails and consequently brought these issues directly upon themselves to the detriment of those honest amongst us who relied on submitting factual information in return for the certification of income.

[Expattaff1308]

So why cant they reintroduce the Embassy Letter send Originals via Post, they scrutinise the evidence if authentic issue letter, if not request more info and if TI want to see the originals as proof so be it. (I always attached my pension letters to the embassy letter anyway when I give it over to Imm). Easy to see that they are originals and easy to see the figures match up.

[Esso49]

12 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

So why cant they reintroduce the Embassy Letter send Originals via Post, they scrutinise the evidence if authentic issue letter, if not request more info and if TI want to see the originals as proof so be it. (I always attached my pension letters to the embassy letter anyway when I give it over to Imm). Easy to see that they are originals and easy to see the figures match up.

Well to re-introduce review of orignal documents would mean a) they would want to help British Nationals and b) they would need to employ people with half a brain to check the documents.  They neither wish to do a) and most certainly b) would give them a headache

[TKDfella]

I'm not trying to start a 'conspiracy theory' but I think there is more to this than just not being able to fulfill the Thai immigration requirement on proof of income. It seems to me...and maybe I wrong...that the BE have been cutting down on staff and this & that for some time. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the BE ended up as a single office housing the main man. An exaggeration, but you know what I mean. 

[wgdanson]

16 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

So why cant they reintroduce the Embassy Letter send Originals via Post, they scrutinise the evidence if authentic issue letter, if not request more info and if TI want to see the originals as proof so be it. (I always attached my pension letters to the embassy letter anyway when I give it over to Imm). Easy to see that they are originals and easy to see the figures match up.

In this day and age, I hope that most on-line banking customers will have ticked the NO PAPER option in order to save trees and energy. So MY bank statemnts are all sent as pdfs which I then save and forward to the BE as evidence. To moonlover, I was not moaning, merely pointing out how inadequate the BE are, the letter they send you is not a true interpretation of what they have see and done. 

[kwan]

Has the news of the 'Embassy Letter' been reported in any of the UK newspapers - a story here surely.

[Maybole]

Over the past 18 months I have only received mail from the UK if it has been registered. No letter from the Pensions Authority, No P60 from any of my ex-employers. The only thing I can produce is a download from the Income Tax account giving the projected income and tax for the following year. Also available is an income and tax statement from previous years.

Would that satisfy Thai Immigration ? would it need to betranslated into Thai ?

[firefox999uk]

this is my quote from a previous thread

 

For the past 8 years my pension provider has emailed my pension statement on my request.......this year they said that they could not do it anymore due to the DATA PROTECTION ACT. I'm just wondering if this is why the BE says that it is unable to full fill the requirement any longer for income...

 

update.....

I did finally get the pension statement.....they posted it to my daughters UK address, she scanned it and emailed it to me.

The BE accepted it and sent me my income letter for immigration.

PS....Ive just signed the petition

 

 

 

Have a Nice Day.

[rickudon]

Obviously the most helpful thing would be for the BE to continue issuing Embassy letters, and this needs to be pressed for. Alternatively Immigration need to say they will accept proof (e.g. pension letters, payslips) but however this would put the onus of verification (and adding it up!) on to immigration and i cannot see this being readily entertained. If this impasse continues, we could be left in a difficult situation. Hopefully it will be resolved before next spring, when the crunch comes and income letters will be out of date.

 

As a backup plan, which may be open to those of us who still maintain UK addresses and banks, is to borrow money in the UK. Currently there are some really good deals. I just borrowed enough to top up my Thai account to the 400,000 baht mark for the Marriage extension, at only 3% per annum over 7 years. OK, i will have to cut expenditure by 5,000 baht a month for the next 7 years, but at least will have that money in the bank for good (hopefully). I know it will not help many, but if it solves the problem for a few, it helps .......

[Maestro]

54 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

MY bank statemnts are all sent as pdfs which I then save and forward to the BE as evidence. To moonlover, I was not moaning, merely pointing out how inadequate the BE are, the letter they send you is not a true interpretation of what they have see and done. 

Isn't it exactly this how the British Embassy got into trouble with immigration? You submit evidence of deposits into your bank account and the embassy writes in its letter that you have shown evidence of income.

[Thaidream]

56 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

Well to re-introduce review of orignal documents would mean a) they would want to help British Nationals and b) they would need to employ people with half a brain to check the documents.  They neither wish to do a) and most certainly b) would give them a headache

Review of documents is simple- a basic 1 hours instruction on what to look for in pensions and letters from companies/as well as bank statements

1.  Letters from sources indicating amounts and  dates paid- monthly

2.  Compare with bank statement showing same amount received.  Most bank statements under the debit section will show where funds sent- another bank; taken out from ATM and location.

3. Thai Bank account if funds transferred regularly OR Foreign ATM cards (show card and/or receipts)

 

Actually the way forward is to issue a Statutory Letter or  affidavit- sworn under Oath.  That puts a person on notice that if they lie- there is a potential criminal offense.  Then it is up to the Thai Imm to ask for added evidence if so required. This letter could easily be outsourced if BE  was interested in assisting their citizens.

[wgdanson]

4 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Isn't it exactly this how the British Embassy got into trouble with immigration? You submit evidence of deposits into your bank account and the embassy writes in its letter that you have shown evidence of income.

No, the BE letter says evidence of PENSIONS.

[rickudon]

I have emailed the Guardian. Always a chance they are having a slow day ......

[Maestro]

9 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

No, the BE letter says evidence of PENSIONS.

Are you saying that you transferred money from one account to another account, gave the embassy statements of the receiving account, and the embassy letter said that you showed them evidence of pensions?

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, wgdanson said:

It has been this same format for the last four years that I know of, and to be honest I never really read what it said. But with all this palaver I decided to read it. What a load of cobblers it is.

If it's been the same 'cobblers' for 4 years already and has been accepted by Thai Immigration for 4 years already, then I reckon there's not much to discuss.

 

This new thread is about sharing a common understanding of what options will be viable for all parties going forward.

[rickudon]

Quote

Are you saying that you transferred money from one account to another account, gave the embassy statements of the receiving account, and the embassy letter said that you showed them evidence of pensions?

I do not think that would be acceptable. Six years ago when doing a visa application at the Hull consulate i was turned down because they would only count BGC deposits in my bank statement, not any interbank transfers. I had money coming from many different sources into several bank accounts, so had enough, but insufficient information for them to verify ....

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

The problem would arise if TI asked for backup-proof, and what he provided did not match the type of income stated in the letter.  Would TI care?  Depends on the IO.

That is a subtlety in wgdansons 'cobblers' that I overlooked.

 

Thai Immigration has always had the right to see the documents that were provided by the applicant to the BE to obtain the income letter. Some do it and some don't. Nothing new there.

 

By the same token, I doubt the IO is going to fully audit the statements against the letter beyond looking at the cumulative numbers and doing a quick check with a calculator. That's what the BE alleges they are being asked to do by TI but I always thought that's exactly what the BE had been doing in the past so' like hundreds of others, I am surprised that they now say they cannot do it. Maybe the other, long threads precisely identified this mysterious 'verification' that the BE suddenly seems incapable of? The subtle nuance between the sworn affidavit and the statutory declaration?

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

To moonlover, I was not moaning, merely pointing out how inadequate the BE are, the letter they send you is not a true interpretation of what they have see and done. 

All 5 of my previous BE income letters have been a precise and accurate assessment of the numbers I entered in their spreadsheet and the bank statements that accompanied them; one spreadsheet and four 1-page statements. There's a possibility that you have a combination of documents from differing sources with variable payment dates and someone is making 'apples with apples' look otherwise? Not a defense of any nice-but-dim BE clerical flunky, just maybe why your numbers aren't quite kosher on the letter?

[Thaidream]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

hai Immigration has always had the right to see the documents that were provided by the applicant to the BE to obtain the income letter. Some do it and some don't. Nothing new there.

 

By the same token, I doubt the IO is going to fully audit the statements against the letter beyond looking at the cumulative numbers and doing a quick check with a calculator. That's what the BE alleges they are being asked to do by TI but I always thought that's exactly what the BE had been doing in the past so' like hundreds of others, I am surprised that they now say they cannot do it. Maybe the other, long threads precisely identified this mysterious 'verification' that the BE suddenly seems incapable of? The subtle nuance between the sworn affidavit and the statutory declaration?

From reading every thread; listening to the interview and reading  posters statements it appears there was a meeting in which Thai Imm asked  Embassies to be diligent in checking the accuracy of the information.  IMHO- the BE has taken this to mean that if you say you are getting a Govt pension of x amount- the BE should check with the Government to verify that info.  The same for private pensions and contacting banks.  However, that is not what other Embassies may have heard or if  they did- they know their Stat Dec with it's disclaimer puts the onus on their citizens to not lie.  Therefore, it appears the BE can't or won't comply at all as the BE letters are not even sworn statements and the BE has already stated they do not due stat decs in Thailand (although they do in Cambodia and Vietnam) It is impossible for most Embassies to check directly with the Departments that handle Govt pensions; companies that provide private pensions etc due to Data  Protection Laws or  Privacy Laws.

 

The question being- if BE does not relent or at least stay the decision not to issue letters- what will Thai Imm expect.  It is hoped by most that BE will at the least get a commitment from Thai Imm to accept the same types of evidence BE was looking at-  Govt Pension letters; Company pension letters.  This is the age of direct deposit - if the amounts match bank statements- most likely there is no problem,  Without this commitment , the citizen will be left to their own devices and chaos will occur as we all know many Thai Imm offices will not get the word; they will then demand  the total in a Thai bank and citizens will not be able to use the Income method-even though it is allowed under Thai Law.

 

If BE was so inclined they could outsource the letter as a sworn statement before a local British Notary under penalty of perjury or words to that effect.  It is also against Thai law to lie to a police officer (Thai Imm is police)   That puts the onus on an individual who swears under Oath. Thai Imm  always has the option of asking for added info.

 

IMHOI- this situation is solvable- if both BE and Thai Imm sit down together- with the applicant and Thai law in mind and workout a compromise solution.  

[Russell17au]

This situation is quite easily solved but it appears that the BE are not interested. All they have to do is charge over to a Stat Dec system where the onus is then on the applicant and make it a criminal offence if you lodge a false Stat Dec. Australia has a 4 year jail sentence and a criminal record. Then if Thai Immigration want any verification they ask the applicant, problem solved. Someone needs to try and make the suggestion to the BE to change the system before it is too late for some people.

[NanLaew]

33 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

From reading every thread; listening to the interview and reading  posters statements it appears there was a meeting in which Thai Imm asked  Embassies to be diligent in checking the accuracy of the information.  IMHO- the BE has taken this to mean that if you say you are getting a Govt pension of x amount- the BE should check with the Government to verify that info.  The same for private pensions and contacting banks.  However, that is not what other Embassies may have heard or if  they did- they know their Stat Dec with it's disclaimer puts the onus on their citizens to not lie.  Therefore, it appears the BE can't or won't comply at all as the BE letters are not even sworn statements and the BE has already stated they do not due stat decs in Thailand (although they do in Cambodia and Vietnam) It is impossible for most Embassies to check directly with the Departments that handle Govt pensions; companies that provide private pensions etc due to Data  Protection Laws or  Privacy Laws.

 

The question being- if BE does not relent or at least stay the decision not to issue letters- what will Thai Imm expect.  It is hoped by most that BE will at the least get a commitment from Thai Imm to accept the same types of evidence BE was looking at-  Govt Pension letters; Company pension letters.  This is the age of direct deposit - if the amounts match bank statements- most likely there is no problem,  Without this commitment , the citizen will be left to their own devices and chaos will occur as we all know many Thai Imm offices will not get the word; they will then demand  the total in a Thai bank and citizens will not be able to use the Income method-even though it is allowed under Thai Law.

 

If BE was so inclined they could outsource the letter as a sworn statement before a local British Notary under penalty of perjury or words to that effect.  It is also against Thai law to lie to a police officer (Thai Imm is police)   That puts the onus on an individual who swears under Oath. Thai Imm  always has the option of asking for added info.

 

IMHOI- this situation is solvable- if both BE and Thai Imm sit down together- with the applicant and Thai law in mind and workout a compromise solution.  

Nice précis there. Many thanks.

[Russell17au]

9 minutes ago, richiejom said:

Suggestion already made in the form of a petition...it just needs enough publicity and British people to care enough to sign: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

unfortunately I'm Australian and my signature would not be allowed, but good luck

[wgdanson]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

All 5 of my previous BE income letters have been a precise and accurate assessment of the numbers I entered in their spreadsheet and the bank statements that accompanied them; one spreadsheet and four 1-page statements. There's a possibility that you have a combination of documents from differing sources with variable payment dates and someone is making 'apples with apples' look otherwise? Not a defense of any nice-but-dim BE clerical flunky, just maybe why your numbers aren't quite kosher on the letter?

SPREADSHEET???? It is merely a form you fill in, with an area to show how you calculate your pension income, eg 52 @ £125. You then calculate your ANNUAL totals from all sources. Then next line is MONTHLY INCOME (Annual income /12) followed by ANNUAL INCOME. Surely the ANNUAL INCOME box should come before the monthly one which is Annual /12 . The 'precise and accurate assessment' of your numbers is merely a copy of whatever you have put there, which I inadvertently proved a couple of years ago when I added one column up incorrectly by £10, but they still put whatever I had written. The numbers on my letter are as kosher as the ones I sent them! The BE staff do not go through the bank statements, investment dividend documents or anything, they simply copy whatever you have told them. And this is the big problem, the BE cannot or will not VERIFY that the figures are correct/genuine/kosher. Too much work for £52.

Edited October 20, 2018 by wgdanson

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

SPREADSHEET???? It is merely a form you fill in, with an area to show how you calculate your pension income, eg 52 @ £125. You then calculate your ANNUAL totals from all sources. Then next line is MONTHLY INCOME (Annual income /12) followed by ANNUAL INCOME. Surely the ANNUAL INCOME box should come before the monthly one which is Annual /12 . The 'precise and accurate assessment' of your numbers is merely a copy of whatever you have put there, which I inadvertently proved a couple of years ago when I added one column up incorrectly by £10, but they still put whatever I had written. The numbers on my letter are as kosher as the ones I sent them! The BE staff do not go through the bank statements, investment dividend documents or anything, they simply copy whatever you have told them. And this is the big problem, the BE cannot or will not VERIFY that the figures are correct/genuine/kosher. Too much work for £52.

Yes it's a spreadsheet, basic but that's what it is.

 

Since my BE income letters all reflect exactly what I put on the spreadsheet and your's don't and you seem to have issues with how the spreadsheet is laid out, well... you see where I'm going with this?

 

No matter, it's an irrelevancy as the letter and the spreadsheet will disappear and that's the main issue.

 

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

Yes it's a spreadsheet, basic but that's what it is.

 

Since my BE income letters all reflect exactly what I put on the spreadsheet and your's don't and you seem to have issues with how the spreadsheet is laid out, well... you see where I'm going with this?

 

No matter, it's an irrelevancy as the letter and the spreadsheet will disappear and that's the main issue.

 

Hey Mr NanLeaw, my letter says EXACTLY what I put on the 'spreadsheet'. I do not see where you are going with this, unless you are calling me a cheat and a liar.

 

[wgdanson]

4 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Yes it's a spreadsheet, basic but that's what it is.

A spreadsheet, eg Excel, allows one to enter figures and formulae to calculate results and further figures. The form on the BE application is merely somewhere to fill in your own figures, however you want, no calculations or checking

[NanLaew]

16 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Hey Mr NanLeaw, my letter says EXACTLY what I put on the 'spreadsheet'. I do not see where you are going with this, unless you are calling me a cheat and a liar.

 

No, no, no... I wouldn't ever call you that. I don't even know you from Adam.

 

I may however suggest that your head is stuck somewhere dark.

 

15 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

A spreadsheet, eg Excel, allows one to enter figures and formulae to calculate results and further figures. The form on the BE application is merely somewhere to fill in your own figures, however you want, no calculations or checking

What is a spreadsheet simple definition?

A spreadsheet is a sheet of paper that shows accounting or other data in rows and columns; a spreadsheet is also a computer application program that simulates a physical spreadsheet by capturing, displaying, and manipulating data arranged in rows and columns.

 

https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/spreadsheet

 

You're the one that admitted to a 10 quid bust on the simple BE 'spreadsheet' but maybe it was too dark to see your calculator?

[smotherb]

13 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I was not referring to the OP. Just giving an example as to why 12 months of proof is not required.

I fail to see how immigration could equate B195k (3 x 65k) to the living potential of having B800k.

 

[lamyai3]

8 hours ago, wgdanson said:

No, the BE letter says evidence of PENSIONS.

Mine (from mid 2018) says income. 

[lamyai3]

12 hours ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Because she says they are unable to do what Immigration has asked them to do Verify the contents of the evidence we supplied.

I have heard 2 other versions  (1) the FCO carried out an audit and they asked is there another way Brits can prove their income and was told yes Bank Statements and (2) there was a seminar with Immigration who asked them to scrutinise the evidence more carefully before issuing the Letter, no mention of verifying...so its what you believe???

A further version I read in one of the other threads is that an applicant sent in evidence of income in a format that was questionable, and the embassy staff member didn't know how to proceed, so asked immigration to clarify, leading to the current mess up. No idea if this was true or speculative.

 

Incidentally, is the British embassy the only one that issues income letters on this basis? Does every other embassy providing letters use the sworn affidavit method, or are there some who use similar wordings to the UK? If the UK was the only embassy using this kind of unvouchable verification then immigration cracking down would seem inevitable, but if it's more widespread then the UK is being unfairly penalised and they really should have stood their ground. One thing is sure, there's no way the authorities higher up in the UK are unaware of the problem at this stage, and they're no doubt already asking what the hell kind of operation their embassy people in Bangkok are running to have created such a ruckus. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by lamyai3