Retirees living abroad are not expats? So what are they?

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, Katia said:

Strangely enough, economics are why I'd stay in the U.S. for retirement-- I assume social programs are out the window when you don't live in the country (and with the cost of living I don't see how anyone can manage to save enough, forget if you need a lot of healthcare or nursing help which can cost 7-12k+ *a month*; "the market" sure hasn't done it for me so far for that million bucks they promise I'll have saved by age {whatever} if only I faithfully put money away {and we're not talking 5 bucks a month, here} and I don't anticipate being able to retire, in any country, until declining health that makes me literally unable to work forces me to do so), so in Thailand when the money runs out or I need nursing home care, there's no safety net of Medicare/Medicaid and other social programs.

If you are too afraid to live why are you bothered about ill health and death ?

[Katia]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

If you are too afraid to live why are you bothered about ill health and death ?

Who said I'm too afraid to live?  But having just finished dealing with a terminally-ill parent who had nothing and navigating Medicare/Medicaid and costs of nursing homes, I know the programs were a lifesaver-- no way could we have afforded that kind of healthcare on our own (and I certainly couldn't quit my job to take care of her myself).

 

If that's me some day-- and it's likely to be, considering people keep living longer and longer without any improvement in health as we age-- I don't want to be stuck in another country without those safety nets and hope I still have the strength to jump into a khlong to solve the problem.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On 10/23/2018 at 2:54 AM, simoh1490 said:

I disagree with the definitions, I think a person who works overseas for a limited period of time and then returns home is a secondee, someone who is seconded, that is not to say that person cannot be an expat also.

 

As for retirees not being expats: I don't believe that work is a key element of being an expat although the intention to return home at some point might be.

I think the difinition of "Expat" is very clear and easy to understand. 

 

Any person living in a country that is not there original country of birth or nationalization, and is not there on vacation as a tourist, is an Expat. So where you intend to live in the future really has no bearing on that, or being an Expat now. 

 

I plan to go to Mars one day to live. So does that make me a Martian now?

[CharlieH]

Troll comment removed

[soalbundy]

18 minutes ago, Katia said:

Who said I'm too afraid to live?  But having just finished dealing with a terminally-ill parent who had nothing and navigating Medicare/Medicaid and costs of nursing homes, I know the programs were a lifesaver-- no way could we have afforded that kind of healthcare on our own (and I certainly couldn't quit my job to take care of her myself).

 

If that's me some day-- and it's likely to be, considering people keep living longer and longer without any improvement in health as we age-- I don't want to be stuck in another country without those safety nets and hope I still have the strength to jump into a khlong to solve the problem.

I think it's a mistake to live your life with the premise 'what if I fall ill', 'what if's' stop people from doing a lot of things, fear is a poor consultant, what if you didn't fall ill ?  What if your illness only lasted 6 months before you died, are you going to live 60 years being careful because of 6 months of illness? Death solves all your problems because then, nothing happened. 

[CharlieH]

If you concentrate too much on what may lie ahead you miss eveything that you could be doing now. ????

 

Tommorow belongs to no one, enjoy what you can when you can.Life is far too short and time passes way to quickly as you get older, atleast, it seems to. ????

[simoh1490]

27 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I think the difinition of "Expat" is very clear and easy to understand. 

 

Any person living in a country that is not there original country of birth or nationalization, and is not there on vacation as a tourist, is an Expat. So where you intend to live in the future really has no bearing on that, or being an Expat now. 

 

I plan to go to Mars one day to live. So does that make me a Martian now?

Only if being an expat now made you an expatrian! Being an expat is a physical state rather than a citizen of or a nationality. AND, how long are vacations, I've been on vacation since 2004, I am coincidently a retiree although I wasn't when I began, and despite living here since 2004 I am not resident here although under UK law I am domiciled here....confused yet!

[Farang99]

On 10/23/2018 at 3:00 AM, AYJAYDEE said:

Emigrant

That would only be correct if we were allowed to live  here permanently with no hassle.

[Snow Leopard]

 

You are born where you are born. You live where you live. Your life is your life. The name you are called is for companies to profile you and the governments to try and squeeze you for more taxation. 

[Katia]

33 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I think it's a mistake to live your life with the premise 'what if I fall ill', 'what if's' stop people from doing a lot of things, fear is a poor consultant, what if you didn't fall ill ?  What if your illness only lasted 6 months before you died, are you going to live 60 years being careful because of 6 months of illness? Death solves all your problems because then, nothing happened. 

I watched my mother live a miserable life for decades as her health went downhill to the point that she essentially told me several times that she kind of wanted to commit suicide.  Knowing that many of her illnesses can be genetic, it was always at the back of my mind that watching her decline could be like looking into a crystal ball.  If you've not had that experience, lucky you.

 

At any rate, not wanting to retire overseas 30-40 years from now has NOTHING to do with how I live my life now, a point you seem to have missed.  In fact, I often have people question my desire to live the life I want to live right now, as I don't assume I'll still be able to do so in ten or twenty years when they say I'm "young and have plenty of time" to do X, Y, or Z.  But I'm going to do so in the balance between being the ant and the grasshopper, lest I have much to regret when I get old and can't afford Fancy Feast for dinner and end up having to commit suicide solely because I can't afford to pay my bills and for my healthcare.

 

You live the way you want and I'll do the same; as I'm not asking you to live my life, why criticize it?

 

 

[watcharacters]

20 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

 I regard myself as a UK expat retired economic refugee on a frozen pension.

 

That about sums it up.    

 

 

 

[watcharacters]

18 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

I do count myself an Expat. The case can be made that I am an economic refugee as a retiree seeking a better living standard than I could have in the U.S. (a rusting trailer in Florida or Arizona comes to mind). You rightly point out that U.S. citizens continue to be taxed on all worldwide income, exclusions/deductions notwithstanding.

 

" U.S. citizens continue to be taxed on all worldwide income, exclusions/deductions notwithstanding."

 

You are not alone..

 

[Farang99]

20 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

 I regard myself as a UK expat retired economic refugee on a frozen pension.

 A clear and precise definition that applies to many of us!

[Srikcir]

On 10/23/2018 at 3:24 AM, AlexRich said:

They are essentially immigrants on a short-term renewable visa

"Visitors" come to mind.

That's how the government treats them no matter their duration in Thailand just as Thailand might treat stateless people in Thailand.

[soalbundy]

20 minutes ago, Katia said:

I watched my mother live a miserable life for decades as her health went downhill to the point that she essentially told me several times that she kind of wanted to commit suicide.  Knowing that many of her illnesses can be genetic, it was always at the back of my mind that watching her decline could be like looking into a crystal ball.  If you've not had that experience, lucky you.

 

At any rate, not wanting to retire overseas 30-40 years from now has NOTHING to do with how I live my life now, a point you seem to have missed.  In fact, I often have people question my desire to live the life I want to live right now, as I don't assume I'll still be able to do so in ten or twenty years when they say I'm "young and have plenty of time" to do X, Y, or Z.  But I'm going to do so in the balance between being the ant and the grasshopper, lest I have much to regret when I get old and can't afford Fancy Feast for dinner and end up having to commit suicide solely because I can't afford to pay my bills and for my healthcare.

 

You live the way you want and I'll do the same; as I'm not asking you to live my life, why criticize it?

 

 

Not criticizing, just saying that it's pointless living in fear of what might be, my father had 3 heart attacks over 7 years, the last one killed him, should I worry ? no way.

[elgenon]

Economic migrant. "Econogrant"? clumsy word.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

"Visitors" come to mind.

That's how the government treats them no matter their duration in Thailand just as Thailand might treat stateless people in Thailand.

you sound like a refugee in the UK complaining about not getting a British passport, Thailand is not our country, that's the way it is, if they didn't have any restrictions the place would be flooded with OAP. I admit it sometimes p1sses me off how we are treated, I have an 11 year old son and two step daughters, the oldest I have put through university, the biological father pays nothing of course, I 'inherited' them as small children, they are now well educated young THAI women but I am still just a temporary visitor, what I do counts for nothing but that has to be accepted. It is as it is, say yes to that anything else is madness.

[Lacessit]

I don't care what anyone calls me. If they can prove it, that's a concern.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, elgenon said:

Economic migrant. "Econogrant"? clumsy word.

Indeed and there is no indication of retired in that word either. On the other hand, I've been using the phrase retired expat so in that expat is already qualified with a second word.

 

RETIROGRANT sounds a cooler word to me but doesn't specifically indicate economic motivations. But RETIROGRANT would include ALL foreigners retiring abroad which those having mostly economic motivations are only a (probably majority) subset. Also these "ogrant" words may signal immigrant more than migrant. Another on the other hand though, a significant portion of global RETIROGRANTS actually do acquire residence stability in their destination country (usually it's some kind of permanent residency status rather than citizenship). Not in Thailand of course. But generally foreigners moving abroad for retirement at least DESIRE more long term residence status abroad even if it is not possible (as in Thailand). 

 

So maybe (just maybe) RETIROGRANT has potential? If using a word (rather than a phrase) there are always going to be imprecisions and ambiguities, and RETIROGRANT like any word can be enhanced with adjectives (as with retired expats).  

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, watcharacters said:

That about sums it up.    

 

2 hours ago, Farang99 said:

 A clear and precise definition that applies to many of us!

Yeah I think so, in my situation which is a long story that may apply to some, in a nutshell simply, having a Thai wife by the time I wanted to retire, after selling everything in England and 50% going to the ex-wife, with that to plan to stay England was not an option and was not gonna be anyway whatever happen.

[KBsinter]

The real  DEFINITION is Alien.............lol

[Odysseus123]

7 minutes ago, KBsinter said:

The real  DEFINITION is Alien.............lol

True..very true..

 

But when you die and you go up in a puff of smoke they will always remember your name.

 

"The Farang.."

[rickudon]

Anyone who moves from one country to another is a MIGRANT. But their are many different types, with some overlap.

 

Tourist - just a visitor, not working, and just there for a holiday. Usually short duration.

 

Refugee - someone forced to leave a country, against there wishes, due to war, victimisation etc.

 

Economic migrant - someone who moves country purely for economic reasons. Most are poor, but not all .... and not usually at the invitation of the host country.

 

Migrant worker - people employer on seasonal work or on contract. This would include the original definition of Expat. These people are able to choose the country they go to, and are legally allowed to enter.

 

Migrant retiree - people who move to another country not primarily to work but on retirement. Such a move is a result of many considerations and they do have many options. But most have no intention of becoming a full citizen of their chosen location, unless it is to resolve some of the issues. They are legal migrants.

 

I would lump both the last categories together as Expats - they have options, are legal (mainly!) and could return home anytime they want.

 

Somewhere in these categories are those who wish to become a citizen of another country, but probably would fit any of the above!

[Odysseus123]

12 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Anyone who moves from one country to another is a MIGRANT. But their are many different types, with some overlap.

 

Tourist - just a visitor, not working, and just there for a holiday. Usually short duration.

 

Refugee - someone forced to leave a country, against there wishes, due to war, victimisation etc.

 

Economic migrant - someone who moves country purely for economic reasons. Most are poor, but not all .... and not usually at the invitation of the host country.

 

Migrant worker - people employer on seasonal work or on contract. This would include the original definition of Expat. These people are able to choose the country they go to, and are legally allowed to enter.

 

Migrant retiree - people who move to another country not primarily to work but on retirement. Such a move is a result of many considerations and they do have many options. But most have no intention of becoming a full citizen of their chosen location, unless it is to resolve some of the issues. They are legal migrants.

 

I would lump both the last categories together as Expats - they have options, are legal (mainly!) and could return home anytime they want.

 

Somewhere in these categories are those who wish to become a citizen of another country, but probably would fit any of the above!

A good post.

 

By the way-there is no overlap between a migrant and an "expat"-every expatriate knows this-it's  their ticket out of paradise.

 

This thread was set up to be a not so subtle piece of farang bashing.As usual the mendacious performers stumble about doing both themselves and goodness knows whom else a little self harm and very little otherwise...

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

...

 

This thread was set up to be a not so subtle piece of farang bashing.As usual the mendacious performers stumble about doing both themselves and goodness knows whom else a little self harm and very little otherwise...

No. It was not.

[Odysseus123]

Just now, Jingthing said:

No. It was not.

T'was..

"Economic refugees"..lol..

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

T'was..

"Economic refugees"..lol..

I was talking about some ideas and quickly realized MIGRANTS was a much better fit. I feel that you're unfairly targeting me for sincerely bringing up what I think is an interesting topic for discussion. I don't appreciate that. You made a vicious and totally FALSE attack on me personally saying this thread was setup for farang bashing. I set it up. THAT WAS NOT MY MOTIVATION. So sorry, I am sure you're a lot of things but one thing you're not is a reader of MY MIND.

[Odysseus123]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I was talking about some ideas and quickly realized MIGRANTS was a much better fit. I feel that you're unfairly targeting me for sincerely bringing up what I think is an interesting topic for discussion. I don't appreciate that. You made a vicious and totally FALSE attack on me personally saying this thread was setup for farang bashing. I set it up. THAT WAS NOT MY MOTIVATION. 

"Migrants" is a useless and irreconcilable fit apart from the very few that achieve citizenship.

 

You know that.You have been in Thailand long enough.

 

How is your search for a small ranch in Montana going?

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

"Migrants" is a useless and irreconcilable fit apart from the very few that achieve citizenship.

 

You know that.You have been in Thailand long enough.

 

How is your search for a small ranch in Montana going?

Now I get it. This is about BASHING me personally. You viciously insulted me with a totally bogus accusation having nothing to do with my actual intentions and then don't have the integrity to acknowledge your error and apologize.

 

BTW -- if you had bothered to actually digest the content in this thread you would already know this is about the GLOBAL phenom of people moving abroad for retirement purposes. NOT THAILAND SPECIFIC!

 

Yes, they are MIGRATING. Doesn't necessarily mean pursuing or achieving citizenship. 

[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Now I get it. This is about BASHING me personally. You viciously insulted me with a totally bogus accusation having nothing to do with my actual intentions and then don't have the integrity to acknowledge your error and apologize.

 

BTW -- if you had bothered to actually digest the content in this thread you would already know this is about the GLOBAL phenom of people moving abroad for retirement purposes. NOT THAILAND SPECIFIC!

 

Yes, they are MIGRATING. Doesn't necessarily mean pursuing or achieving citizenship. 

I wouldn't have a clue who you are,what you do and wouldn't recognize you in the street even if we stumbled in the same ever present pothole and crashed into each other.

 

I read the article (otherwise I  would not comment) and I found it hilarious..

Where you not the poster claiming that you wished to return to the USA and was looking for a cheap place?It went on for about a thousand posts..endless..

 

"Economic migrants.." so funny..