Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[FigaroLucowski]

I have lived here for 18 yrs, there have been some major shake-ups @ immigration this year. I don't know if you can blame it on Big Joke or not. I have been getting my retirement visa from income made from rental property in Thailand. I didn't have to lie at the US Embassy I make over 65k a month. I found out,  and it was my ignorance, that immigration doesn't accept money made in Thailand for a visa, I put in 800k baht, It was a real struggle, I didn't have a lot of cash on hand. But, in the end, I think it will be easier.

 

It's not a good feeling for me to have to kowtow to immigration, I don't think they care about the well-being of farangs a bit. We are just tolerated guest here. And they will be quick to tell you if you don't like it get out! 

Edited October 26, 2018 by FigaroLucowski
typo

[Jeffrey346]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

But at some offices, this is quite a rigamorole to go through.  If in the Jomtien area, you had better own your own condo, or at least ensure your landlord is a high-ranking Thai govt-official, so they won't try to skewer him through you. 

 

Or, like with retirement-based (and maybe easier to keep it based on retirement), you can just pay an agent and all the "problems" magically vanish, including the need to prove any money at all (beyond the cash agent-fee).  No witnesses, no 30-day "under consideration" period, no cross-examination of the wife as if she is a traitor, etc.

Yes you are correct. Here i n Khon Kaen they make you jump through hoops to get a Marriage Visa. 

In  Savannakhet, they only require your marriage certificate, house book and your wife's ID card.. No income required.

[johnjohn2]

1 minute ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Yes you are correct. Here i n Khon Kaen they make you jump through hoops to get a Marriage Visa. 

In  Savannakhet, they only require your marriage certificate, house book and your wife's ID card.. No income required.

This guy who said about printed bank statements is from Khon Kaen

 

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Wrong how?

Seems the worst desperate excuse ever to get married to a Thai to qualify for a Visa.

Come back in a few years and tell me how many of them are divorced and their wives took everything are now they are truly penniless..

 

And exactly what Thai authorities are paranoid about...

[Will27]

1 minute ago, bkk6060 said:

Wrong how?

Seems the worst desperate excuse ever to get married to a Thai to qualify for a Visa.

Come back in a few years and tell me how many of them are divorced and their wives took everything are now they are truly penniless..

 

They were in long term relationships but never got around to being married.

 

They got married because it was easier for them financially speaking.

You don't know anything about their relationships.

Tell me how they can take everything?

[totally thaied up]

1 minute ago, Will27 said:

How can the embassy verify your income?

We can go to the MYGOV website and print out a form showing our Pension or you can request a letter to be sent out to you (if you want to show postage to you).

 

It is all fairly simple to do but like everything and under our Stat Dec laws, you would be banged up to the Monkey House for 4 years just for a start, so, that is a pretty big deterrent. I use the 400K method. My wife told me this was coming a long time back and to put the 400K in and forget it. Australia will follow the Americans at some stage. I mean, America catches a cold and we also come down with it...

[blackhorse]

Or join me in the buyer's market?

The ones forced out are poor and don't even have 65 k let alone 800k. And you think they own condos? That's cute

[Number 6]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Why an exodus ? its not that hard to put money in a Thai account. If you have the money its just moving money around.

IF

 

As with the Brits.

 

65k baht is a fairly large income stream for US, UK. For US full Social Security might cover half, but that leaves 25k pm to be made up in securities, difficult or more possibly rentals. The rental might not account for mortgage as well.

 

Equity markets sliding now, hugely overvalued. Ridiculous PEs. Even safest investments dividend yield 2-4%. Cash is worthless.

 

I'll wait for the Brit to chime in about his fabulous offshore investment in Jersey, blah blah

 

I've said it for years - most expats do not have a 65k income stream.

 

[pagallim]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

My statements are from the pension provider and they are originals and they are certified by the Australian Embassy. So your remark about "never going to happen" is crap because it does happen.

What you're providing to your Embassy is immaterial other than their own ethics.   Ultimately what you're doing is signing a document (statutory declaration) and your consul is witnessing your signature.   They are not verifying your income to Thai Immigration.   You might not like this, but this 'verification' is what has prompted the UK and US authorities to act in the way they have, because unless they actually communicate with the income providers themselves, they cannot do so.   In spite of what you think, Australia will be no different, and I would expect a similar announcement from them in the very near future.

[zydeco]

4 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

By the income statements that I get from CentreLink my pension provider which is an Australian Government organization, so the documents are from the Australian Government and they cannot be altered, so by presenting them to the Australian Embassy and they certify them as correct.

This topic is about the United States Embassy income verification letter. Please go talk about Australia some place else.

[pgrahmm]

29 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Did you google?  Union pay ATM cards in USA?  In Thailand you have to withdraw SS money from your direct deposit account at Bangkok Bank in person no ATM cards. When you withdraw the SS put it in a SCB account and use that card. 

Google = ok for CC ..... Debit card = maybe.....

It was a BKK bank officer that told me no go.....

 

They might service only domestically/Thailand.....

 

I ran into something similar in PI with a different card (Visa) once upon a time.....Some banks wouldn't accept international cards - both directions, domestic only......

[NCC1701A]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

There's a limit to how much baht in cash you can take out. It's not a big amount.

i don't know the upper limit but I have withdrawn 350,000 in cash in one day at one time.

[Will27]

5 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

By the income statements that I get from CentreLink my pension provider which is an Australian Government organization, so the documents are from the Australian Government and they cannot be altered, so by presenting them to the Australian Embassy and they certify them as correct.

I guess so.

 

But the embassy doesn't ask for proof at the moment.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

their wives took everything

How?  FYI - it's not the wife that is usually the problem - it is family, which may pull strings.  I get along great with my in-laws, but it would be foolish to create a pot of cash for them to strive for via a divorce - setup for failure.  As-is, all is better for everyone with me around.

[Ban Phe Dezza]

 apologies  to Folks re previous post   my basic point is despite having the Required amount in the Bank some posters are calling folks like me scumbags and worse telling us to leave At this point in time No Letter No Extension 

[watcharacters]

4 hours ago, longball53098 said:

Going to hurt a lot of us non-liars as it was a convenient way to get the extension

 

 

I'm unclear as to how it hurts non liars.   

 

It simply means prove a 65 THB monthly income or  have 800k THB on  a required seasoned deposit.

 

Did I miss something?

 

 

 

[JackThompson]

19 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Tell it to Thai immigration and the American embassy.  I'm sure it will make a big difference.  If you don't have 25 grand to put in a interest bearing Thai bank account that you can withdraw at any time Thailand doesn't want you and the American embassy agrees with them. 

It was your rather cavalier attitude about how much money other people need to not live in their passport-country I was critiquing.  If you put yourself in their shoes for a minute, you'd realize there are valid reasons they choose to live here - not always a matter of being foolhardy or similar. 

 

I agree the decision is TI and the Embassies' to own.  Recent decisions by immigration for under-50s indicate they don't care at all about the loses to their own citizens due to their policy-changes.

 

Also, you left out the 'agent' option - so you really just need 15K to 30K per-year to pay an agent, and all these "requirements" go out the window.  That could change, but I doubt it.  Maybe the rate will go up - or maybe the deal made was to "manufacture"  higher-volume (by canceling letters) at the same "fee" per application.  Who knows for sure, but "follow the money" usually works out to be the real reason for policy-shifts.

[Phuket Man]

7 minutes ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Yes you are correct. Here i n Khon Kaen they make you jump through hoops to get a Marriage Visa. 

In  Savannakhet, they only require your marriage certificate, house book and your wife's ID card.. No income required.

A 12 month extension for marriage is quite easy to obtain in Khon Kaen.

Income or bank balance is required at every Immigration Office.

You are referring to a Non Imm O Visa obtained from a Consulate.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Phuket Man

[mercman24]

firstly i know nothing about visa runs, would this be a way out for some, just asking.

[Will27]

3 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

We can go to the MYGOV website and print out a form showing our Pension or you can request a letter to be sent out to you (if you want to show postage to you).

 

It is all fairly simple to do but like everything and under our Stat Dec laws, you would be banged up to the Monkey House for 4 years just for a start, so, that is a pretty big deterrent. I use the 400K method. My wife told me this was coming a long time back and to put the 400K in and forget it. Australia will follow the Americans at some stage. I mean, America catches a cold and we also come down with it...

The Oz embassy doesn't ask for proof.

 

I'd also like to know the last person in Thailand locked up for providing false information on a stat dec.

[malibukid]

Thailand just shot itself in the foot.  i spend $$$ each month and do volunteer work as well.  not into all the paperwork they now require, and as far as the 800K sounds like the banks where in on this.

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, watcharacters said:

I'm unclear as to how it hurts non liars.   

 

It simply means prove a 65 THB monthly income or  have 800k THB on  a required seasoned deposit.

 

Did I miss something?

Yes, what you missed is - It would mean applicants must show Importing 65K/mo - not "have 65K/mo in total gross income," which is the current standard.  Those are two very different things.

[giddyup]

21 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Yes, precisely the same amount of time. Just that Thai immigration would need to do it themselves instead of outsourcing the task for free to foreign embassies

You aren't grasping what's going on. The embassies that were issuing the affidavit weren't verifying income, they were just witnessing the document you signed. As continues for the moment with the Aussie embassy, they don't ask for any proof of income, so are you suggesting that Thai immigration do the same thing?

[Longcut]

2 hours ago, Longcut said:

FAQS: CESSATION OF INCOME AFFIDAVITS
Is it true the Embassy will no longer complete income affidavits for U.S. citizens?
 Yes. Beginning January 1, 2019, the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai will no longer provide the income affidavit form and will not notarize previous versions of the form. 
Why is the U.S. Embassy making this decision? 
 The Royal Thai Government requires foreigners to meet a minimum income threshold to obtain nonimmigrant “O,” “O-A,” or 
“O-X” long-term stay visas. The self-sworn affidavits notarized at the Embassy and Consulate General do not meet the Thai 
requirement to certify the income of U.S. citizens. In addition, U.S. Citizens have often expressed concern at the expense and 
burden of travel necessary to obtain the income affidavit at the U.S. Embassy or Consulate. 
I want to renew my visa in 2019. How can I verify my income for the application?
 Thailand provides information about visa application and extension requirements on the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington, 
D.C., and the Thai Immigration Bureau websites. These include minimum savings and income amounts and types of evidence 
required.
 As of October 26, 2018, U.S. citizens can verify they meet the income requirements directly with Royal Thai Immigration by 
providing a local bank statement indicating a minimum deposit of 800,000 Thai Baht or a local bank statement showing a 
monthly deposit of at least 65,000 Thai Baht. Applicants should refer to the above-referenced websites for specifics regarding 
the timing and conditions associated with these deposits.
 We will continue to notarize income affidavit forms through the end of 2018. Thai Immigration Bureau officials confirmed to us
that they will support early visa renewals for U.S. citizens during the transition period. The income affidavits are currently valid 
for six months. 
I receive U.S. Government benefits. Can the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General verify this income?
 We cannot verify or guarantee income, regardless of source.
 The U.S. Mission in Thailand has been working with the Social Security Administration (SSA) regarding deposits directly into 
Thai banks. The SSA recently notified us that it has approved Thailand to participate in the International Direct Deposit (IDD) 
program. This will make proof of income easier. IDD will be implemented beginning in the first quarter of 2019. More information about IDD can be found at: https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
What will happen to those who cannot demonstrate sufficient income?
 Sufficient finances are an eligibility requirement of the Royal Thai Government for the issuance of a long-stay retirement or 
family-based visa. Individuals who do not meet the income and financial thresholds do not qualify for these visas in Thailand. 
U.S. citizens should thoroughly understand the Royal Thai Government’s visa requirements to ensure eligibility. We cannot 
intervene on U.S. citizens’ behalf. 
What are the U.S. Embassy and Consulate doing to ease the transition?
 We recently met with the new Commissioner of Immigration and his staff to discuss the change, and both the Embassy and 
Consulate General will work closely with regional immigration offices during the transition period to address any concerns. 
U.S. EMBASSY BANGKOK
95 Wireless Rd., Bangkok 10330 THAILAND 
Find us on or +66 (2) 205-4049

FACT SHEET: EVIDENCE OF INCOME FOR LONG-STAY VISAS
Beginning January 1, 2019, the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and the U.S. Consulate General in 
Chiang Mai will no longer provide the income affidavit and will not notarize previous versions of 
the income affidavit. 
Fact: Applicants for the Kingdom of Thailand’s nonimmigrant category “O,” “O-A,” or “O-X” (long 
stay) visa can find information regarding visa requirements on the following Royal Thai Government websites (see below): Kingdom of Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Royal Thai Embassy 
(Washington, D.C.), and Royal Thai Immigration Bureau.
Fact: The Kingdom of Thailand requires minimum income or savings standards as one of the criteria for applying for the nonimmigrant category “O,” “O-A,” or “O-X” (long stay) visa for retirees 
and non-Thais married to Thai nationals.
Fact: The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General can neither verify nor guarantee the income of 
U.S. citizens applying for visas to Thailand. Personal incomes often come from several disparate 
sources, both private and governmental. 
Fact: The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General do not guarantee the contents of any notarized 
document. U.S. consular officers have never certified or verified the income claimed on the income affidavits. Their primary role is to verify the identity of the person signing a document. 
Fact: The Royal Thai government is aware that the income affidavit provided by the U.S. Embassy 
Bangkok and Consulate General Chiang Mai is not actual evidence of income.
Fact: The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General are not required by Thai law to provide an income affidavit template for U.S. citizens to use for Thai visa applications. The periodic acceptance of the affidavit in lieu of actual income evidence has been a matter of informal practice 
rather than regulation. 
Fact: U.S. citizens must work directly with the Royal Thai Government to determine if they meet 
Thai visa requirements. The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General do not have a role in securing 
a Thai visa for U.S. citizens.
Fact: The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General will work closely with Thai immigration officials 
during the transition period to minimize any confusion. 
Resources 
U.S. Mission Thailand: https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/
Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15398-Issuance-of-Visa.htm
Royal Thai Embassy (Washington, D.C.): http://thaiembdc.org/visas/
Thailand Immigration Bureau: https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22
U.S. EMBASSY BANGKOK
95 Wireless Rd., Bangkok 10330 THAILAND 
Find us on or +66 (2) 205-4049

[Jeffrey346]

1 minute ago, Phuket Man said:

A 12 month extension for marriage is quite easy to obtain in Khon Kaen.

Income or bank balance is required at every Immigration Office.

 

I was there last week. They want:

All the normal stuff plus House and family photos, a visit to your house and 2 Thai Nationals to vouch for you.

[mduras01]

Perhaps I’m wrong in assuming this, but don’t many retirees not have proof of such income? I would think plenty have used affidavits and have never been able to show the funds? If that is case, then this is bad news, sad news. Many good people will be affected and will have to rethink their future - and retirement is probably not the time one should want to worry.

[totally thaied up]

6 minutes ago, Will27 said:

The Oz embassy doesn't ask for proof.

 

I'd also like to know the last person in Thailand locked up for providing false information on a stat dec.

And I agree with you 100%. Too easy to lie. My wife told me a long time to put money in bank (400k) as she said this was going to stop (Letters) for all Embassies in the future. I took her advice.

 

This will, in the end, affect Australia as well. It is no time to gloat for anyone as these are not good times for many of any Nationality. This will trickle down to everyone.

Edited October 26, 2018 by totally thaied up

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Time Traveller said:

Why does the Thai Immigration office not verify the applicants income themselves???

 

Oh thats right they're too stupid, too lazy, and expect other people to do their jobs for them. 

Why would that be Thai immigrations job anymore than it would be the job of embassies. The embassies, at least some of them,  find themselves unable to verify income that originates in the country each represents. 

 

Being stupid and lazy is hardly the reason some Thai immigration officer would be unable to check with the 1001 different private or government pension providers around the world.

 

If you mean look a piece of paper that someone brings into the immigration office, that wouldn't be verification that would just mean some of the income claims were accurate and some were just pieces of paper cooked up on a computer to look real.

[chainarong]

4 hours ago, certacito said:

How long until the Australian embassy's news flash ?

Not Long, I'd say a new year gift.

Edited October 26, 2018 by chainarong

[David Walden]

43 minutes ago, pgrahmm said:

Good point....The card I have for BKK bank is only good for ATM withdrawls here - not in the US.....But, it is the only bank you can tie in a with a deposit from the US......

Damned if you do, damned if you don't......

Yes you don't have to bring money to Thailand.  I have a Citi debit card and an ING debit card both when downloading the ticket shows the Bt220 fee but in both cases it is credited back to my account when the transaction appears (only min).  I also have a debit card from ANZ bank in Aus they charge like wounded bulls for every transaction.  I have to have it as my ANZ pension fund is paid into it.  I just transfer the payment to Citibank and the transaction in Thailand are free.  So is ING Bank free.  The exchange rate is the internationally published rate for that day.  I don't know about the hidden charges, probably are some.  We know in Australia under the present Royal Commission into banking there has found to be many fees for no services charged for by banks.  They have to be paid back by the banks (Maybe).