Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

The problem is that the situation has changed. Without income letters people that legitimately have that income have now entered a zone of uncertainty.

Abolutely  correct- many people have the income stream but do not have an extra 800K ($25,000) sitting around thate can be brought into Thailand and left frozen for 3 months time. They can prove income stream . We are waiting what Thai Imm will agree to accept.

 

It should be noted that the Embassy letter never, ever stated they verified anything. It is a self declaration that was sworn under penalty of perjury which if one is lying, one incurs a criminal/civil penalty that could include jail time. The system worked well- some people may have lied but most do not 

 

Thai Imm may have asked the Embassies to verify amounts from source- impossible- you can't even do it from the USA- there are privacy laws.  Does anyone actually believe the US Social Security Dept will  provide info to a caller from Thailand or anywhere else unless you can verify some identity info. No Embassy can verify  but a signed affidavit with an oath is the best one could expect. Thai Imm can always ask for backup info, which they have done, such as pension letters;  bank statements etc.

 

If I was negotiating this with Thai Imm- I would have informed them it is impossible to verify from source but instead of an income letter- citizens can do a blank affidavit- state their income and source in writing- have the statement sworn.  I have asked US Embassy if they will allow this after Jan 1, 2019-  If they  will do it- next step will Thai imm accept it with added proof.  No response yet from US Embassy.

[JackThompson]

17 minutes ago, JAG said:

Frankly, even if they lined up every "retiree" tomorrow, put them on planes and hung onto the B800,000 from each one, it would amount to a totally insignificant amount of "capital" for the country.

Add up what they will spend the rest of their lives here, and it adds up to much more. Many thousands of Thai's incomes over decades are at stake.  And what to do with all those condos and apt-buildings full of retirees? 

 

Got to ask why TI is doing this.  Because, let's face it, retirees (even poorer ones) are not starting riots or creating problems in Thailand.  Someone is paying for this change in policy. 

 

Some think the goal is to pump-up banks with higher balances and more foreign-income flows.  I think it's more likely being done to increase agent-business, which translates directly to money in certain pockets.  But maybe it's because a nearby foreign-power paid them to do it, and seem intent on taking over this entire region of the world.

 

Too bad our embassy(ies) cannot just do a "go fund me" to fill up some suitcases of cash, so as to out-bid whichever other factions are paying for this policy-change. 

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, zydeco said:

I wonder how many people will never see or hear about this January deadline until after it has passed?  Then walk into the embassy and be wrecked with the news?

Moral of the story: It pays to belong to TVF!!!

 

????

[thailand49]

I've been a big critic when this started, this morning reading the thread which is now since closed so surprise this one is still running? People might want to disagree with me likely will never get a confirmation but I've not seen anything from the Thai government sending out a memorandum to the U.S. Embassy or any Embassy not to issue anything unless you can verify the income? Consider and think maybe I'm missing something but why all of a sudden the U.S.

This is my take if you look at the remarks this is really a black eye on the Embassy especially when someone post ( not blaming anyone ) " his conversation with a representative at the Embassy Citizen service we will continue to issue the letter it is a cash cow " true or not people don't think the Thai government reads ThaiVisa?  So I'm not surprised after 26 pages this morning the Embassy came with their decision and issue the noticed. To be honest it was the right thing to do it placed the Embassy in an unwilling position of having to lead. No Embassy want that maybe that is why the Brit threw it into our courts. By putting up the notice it takes them out of the game and put it all back on the Brit and other Embassy to resolve the problem with the Thai Government. Now after a while it will blow over or precedence will be set and U.S. will come back and start to re-issue the letter as the truth in the matter it is a cash cow that the Thai government want a piece for the B.O.T

As UBJoe was saying everything is rumored and we should wait until the Thai government put out something but as we know too late now!

Edited October 26, 2018 by thailand49

[gojdthai2016]

Well I just recently turned fifty and got a retirement visa with 800 in the bank,,no pension , wish I had pension income of 65000 a month ,but live off less than half of that and live well,,drink everyday and eat well ,,not 40 baht thai food,the thing I don’t understsnd is that if someone is getting 65 k a month in pension , why can’t they scrub up roughly 20000 pound or 80000 baht, from overseas , borrow it from a bank or friends and pay them interest if so be it, yes current exchange rates suck but hey look in the bright side they could get worse,,,if someone gets 65 k a month you obviuosly  have worked hard and long ,,and 800ooo can’t be impossible to muster up ,,,so all this talk of tossing in the towel and moving ship is way over the top

 

 

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The ball is now in the Immigration Bureaus hand now. They are the ones that are going to have change the rules.

I can prove every cent or sating shown on the income affidavits I have done.

A bank book showing all of it coming in plus the letter I will get in December stating how much I will be getting next year and a statement in January for this years income.

As I advised in another thread, Immigration are discussing how to deal with this problem. Hopefully they will either back down, or start to allow proof of income coming into a Thai bank. The problem is what they do about the initial extension when there is no history of transfers in.

 

The rules, as I also explained in another thread, as written and published do not need to be changed for them to start accepting proof of income another way. Transfers going in to a Thai bank would be the most sensible way to prove income.

[blackhorse]

Doesn't necessarily mean Thai immigration will accept it.

They won't know.

[Pattaya46]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Moral of the story: It pays to belong to TVF!!! ????

Or any other Thailand oriented forum 

Not many of them (if any) who don't have a topic on this UK&US decision.

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Abolutely  correct- many people have the income stream but do not have an extra 800K ($25,000) sitting around thate can be brought into Thailand and left frozen for 3 months time. They can prove income stream . We are waiting what Thai Imm will agree to accept.

 

It should be noted that the Embassy letter never, ever stated they verified anything. It is a self declaration that was sworn under penalty of perjury which if one is lying, one incurs a criminal/civil penalty that could include jail time. The system worked well- some people may have lied but most do not 

 

Thai Imm may have asked the Embassies to verify amounts from source- impossible- you can't even do it from the USA- there are privacy laws.  Does anyone actually believe the US Social Security Dept will  provide info to a caller from Thailand or anywhere else unless you can verify some identity info. No Embassy can verify  but a signed affidavit with an oath is the best one could expect. Thai Imm can always ask for backup info, which they have done, such as pension letters;  bank statements etc.

 

If I was negotiating this with Thai Imm- I would have informed them it is impossible to verify from source but instead of an income letter- citizens can do a blank affidavit- state their income and source in writing- have the statement sworn.  I have asked US Embassy if they will allow this after Jan 1, 2019-  If they  will do it- next step will Thai imm accept it with added proof.  No response yet from US Embassy.

But you can enter your social security account and print off an income statement which you could take to the embassy and have it verified and attached to the affirmation of income and that would solve a big problem. But you have to get the embassy to accept that, not Thai Immigration

[RCS]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

If you are married the requirement is 40000 not 65000. Or 400,000 lump sum,

I have never understood why a single guy living here in retirement needs more income than someone supporting a Thai wife (and family).   In my experience it is just the opposite. 

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Some think the goal is to pump-up banks with higher balances and more foreign-income flows.  I think it's more likely being done to increase agent-business, which translates directly to money in certain pockets.

If I had to guess- agents will be even busier- and the way the Police Order/Imm act is written- they are doing nothing wrong- all the stamp in the passport are genuine- the IO office has the legal authority to waive any requirement- including seasoning of funds.  Thailand operates on a policy of who you know and how to get things done.

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, RCS said:

I have never understood why a single guy living here in retirement needs more income than someone supporting a Thai wife (and family).   In my experience it is just the opposite. 

They make allowance for the possibility that the wife contributes something. Or that the couple may live rent free in a home owned by her/her family.

 

And in some cases, this is so.

[sambum]

21 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Chinese tourists spend USD 768 per overseas holiday according to Neilsen.  In 2017 9,194,057 came to Thailand from China.

And you think that every one of those 9,194,057 (TAT?) Chinese tourists spent $768 US each! 

[ubonjoe]

24 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

I hope you guys consider this question on topic. I didn't get any notification from the USA STEP program, which I just joined this month precisely to get these notifications. Does anyone have a date and location for the US Embassy Outreach to Phuket in November? 

No STEP email for it yet. So no date or location yet.

[Kalasin Jo]

7 hours ago, Thailand said:

Brits and now the yanks, probably 65% or so ,just a guess, of all the expats in Thailand, should be a lot of clout or a pending exodus.

Yes, if we all make enough noise and get our Embassies to negotiate with Thai immigration something that works for all. I have written to the BE and posted a copy on an earlier thread.

Because I cannot lay my hands on 400k baht to keep in the bank this time ( as in previous years) I am moving to the embassy income letter (British) for a marriage extension in January 2019. If not acceptable to Thai IO at Sakhon Nakon I will have to leave by 20 Jan 2019.

My difficulty is not only the 400 k baht lump sum now I am on pensions, but I only spend around 6 months of the year here and don't want to be sending 40k each month as when I am not here I need that pension income elsewhere. Is this the end? I'm thinking may be getting a tourist 60 day visa out of country plus 30 day in country extension in future, but that only gives me a max of 90 days here. Ideas anyone?

Fortunately I do have somewhere else to go, but it may not be easy for my wife to join me. Many of course do not. And with the catastrophic fall in the £ against the baht, the British state pension sucks and is already below the Thai income requirements.

[thaitero]

This is not going to be so bad after all. There is going to be convenient new show statements that 65 K is coming monthly from abroad to Thailand method.
Some complain i do not need 65k monthly to support my lifestyle
Well if so after you have saved 800 000 to your thai account you can change your annual extensions to "show 800 000 method"
Not so bad, really ??

Edited October 26, 2018 by thaitero

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Get a income affidavit now and apply in December. The affidavit is good for 6 months. 

I would caution anyone not to rely on this. After January 1st the embassy letters are supposed to include the statement that the embassy have verified the income. We don't know how long pre-Jan letters will be accepted.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that no one should rely on them being accepted.

 

IMO it is best to start funding a Thai bank account with the request 400K/800K until we know how this is going to pan out.

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

But you can enter your social security account and print off an income statement which you could take to the embassy and have it verified and attached to the affirmation of income and that would solve a big problem. But you have to get the embassy to accept that, not Thai Immigration

The Embassy doesn't want to do it but Thai imm could accept it and they have because I showed it to them when they asked for added proof  with the letter- now all they have to do is accept it without the letter

[GinBoy2]

So, obviously there has some shift in the thinking towards retiree expats in general.

The idea that you need to keep (and I did it for many years) keeping ฿800K in a bank account, anywhere in the world earning you 1, 2% is lunacy.

I'm totally aligned with the fact that nobody who retirees in Thailand is any burden on the Thai state, and indeed contributes to the Thai economy, be they rich or poor.

But that seems not to be the issue.

Now I don't have too much skin in this game anymore, I'm now an annual 3 month tourist.

But you do have to ponder, what's the end game here?

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, elviajero said:

As I advised in another thread, Immigration are discussing how to deal with this problem. Hopefully they will either back down, or start to allow proof of income coming into a Thai bank. The problem is what they do about the initial extension when there is no history of transfers in.

 

The rules, as I also explained in another thread, as written and published do not need to be changed for them to start accepting proof of income another way. Transfers going in to a Thai bank would be the most sensible way to prove income.

Source?

[JackThompson]

21 minutes ago, amdy2206 said:

I really don't understand where the problem is. You have certain specifications to live here. If you have them, great.

Many did meet those specs (gross world-wide income over 40K/65K average/mo), until just now.

21 minutes ago, amdy2206 said:

If you don't want to comply, go home. Simple.

Not simple, for many.  And why "home" is suggested baffles me - given all the other better choices with a higher standard-of-living / cost-of-living value.  There is a reason we left "home," in the first place.

 

21 minutes ago, amdy2206 said:

All countries have the same. You want to stay, put your money here. You don't want to put your money here, go where you want to put your money - but stop complaining. 

And what of their life here, set up based on the original rules?  Just shut up and take it?  No one is forcing anyone else to read this forum-thread.  Just close the page, and you don't have to hear any of the attendant complaints.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

So, obviously there has some shift in the thinking towards retiree expats in general.

The idea that you need to keep (and I did it for many years) keeping ฿800K in a bank account, anywhere in the world earning you 1, 2% is lunacy.

I'm totally aligned with the fact that nobody who retirees in Thailand is any burden on the Thai state, and indeed contributes to the Thai economy, be they rich or poor.

But that seems not to be the issue.

Now I don't have too much skin in this game anymore, I'm now an annual 3 month tourist.

But you do have to ponder, what's the end game here?

Do the people who retire here without 800,000 in the bank pose a risk to the health care system not being able to pay their bills?

[Kalasin Jo]

8 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

They make allowance for the possibility that the wife contributes something. Or that the couple may live rent free in a home owned by her/her family.

 

And in some cases, this is so.

Indeed. I live with my wife in a house rent free.

[bkk6060]

35 minutes ago, zydeco said:

I wonder how many people will never see or hear about this January deadline until after it has passed?  Then walk into the embassy and be wrecked with the news?

Very stupid comment as they will not be able to make an appointment for that service after that time.

Duh.....

Edited October 26, 2018 by bkk6060

[scubascuba3]

How much warning do you require?  Seems that would not be a problem. Since the letter is good for 6 months. 

I imagine some farang would have needed years to squirrel away the 800k

[pgrahmm]

4 minutes ago, RCS said:

I have never understood why a single guy living here in retirement needs more income than someone supporting a Thai wife (and family).   In my experience it is just the opposite. 

My wife is a lot more frugal than me - about 40%.......She shops and gets Thai pricing.....Although family is 700k away they have a way to pull together & share, stock each other up.....Truly closer knit & caring than my US side of the family.....

Spending wise, I can very rarely fault my wife - regardless of what it's for......If I suggest something she'll say , expensive, or I don't want to spend the money.....

We lack for nothing......

[Thaidream]

I want to know can I use a Blank Affidavit Form- which is on the US Embassy website-  write in  my income information and will the US Embassy sign it.  I have done this before for other things including a US court and it was accepted.  If the US Embassy will allow a blank affidavit- written by the citizen- this takes the onus away from the Embassy as it is not an income statement per se and not addressed to Thai Imm.   then the next step- is will Thai Imm accept it and what added proof might they want if any.

 

These affidavits are done everyday for people overseas- they are in lieu of a US Notary one goes to in America when an institution wants a notarized signature on a document-  My Thai wife even did one at the Us Embassy to agree to lump sum distribution of monies in the US. They carry legal weight because one takes an Oath under penalty of perjury.

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, elviajero said:

After January 1st the embassy letters are supposed to include the statement that the embassy have verified the income

After January 1st, there will be no more letters.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Indeed. I live with my wife in a house rent free.

I think it is probably more the norm that the Farang builds the wife a house. 

[Suradit69]

14 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Abolutely  correct- many people have the income stream but do not have an extra 800K ($25,000) sitting around thate can be brought into Thailand and left frozen for 3 months time. They can prove income stream . We are waiting what Thai Imm will agree to accept.

 

It should be noted that the Embassy letter never, ever stated they verified anything. It is a self declaration that was sworn under penalty of perjury which if one is lying, one incurs a criminal/civil penalty that could include jail time. The system worked well- some people may have lied but most do not 

 

Thai Imm may have asked the Embassies to verify amounts from source- impossible- you can't even do it from the USA- there are privacy laws.  Does anyone actually believe the US Social Security Dept will  provide info to a caller from Thailand or anywhere else unless you can verify some identity info. No Embassy can verify  but a signed affidavit with an oath is the best one could expect. Thai Imm can always ask for backup info, which they have done, such as pension letters;  bank statements etc.

 

If I was negotiating this with Thai Imm- I would have informed them it is impossible to verify from source but instead of an income letter- citizens can do a blank affidavit- state their income and source in writing- have the statement sworn.  I have asked US Embassy if they will allow this after Jan 1, 2019-  If they  will do it- next step will Thai imm accept it with added proof.  No response yet from US Embassy.

  

They did state:

Quote

NOTICE:  Beginning January 1, 2019, U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide the income affidavit.  We will not notarize previous versions of the income affidavit.

Not sure what "previous versions of the income affidavit" means, but they do have the right to refuse to notarize something.

 

If the supervisor at CW was correct, immigrations will not accept embassy affidavits dated after 2018, so I doubt trying to get them to accept anything of the sort for income verification.

 

 

Quote

 

Refusal of Notarial Services
Please be aware that a consular officer may refuse any notary service when:

The document will be used in transactions that may be prohibited by U.S. law, treaty or foreign law;
The host country does not authorize the performance of the service;
The document is blank or incomplete;
The officer believes that the document is suspicious, potentially illegal, or detrimental to the best interests of the United States;