Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[elviajero]

20 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

46 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That will never happen here. Owning a condo will never give you a credit here. However it is possible that they might require insurance for all.

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That's not correct. If you buy a condo at 10 million baht you can get an investment visa.

That's not correct. It's depends on the condo you buy.

[Jingthing]

That's not correct. It's depends on the condo you buy.

It was correct. You're talking about a completely different class of visa. The member was CLEARLY talking about getting a special break on the financial requirements for regular retirement extensions. That is clearly NEVER going to happen.

I do recall that Mexico did something like that. Cut the requirements 50 percent for home owners. But last I checked they dropped that.

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[blackhorse]

That's not correct. It's depends on the condo you buy.

Ok. But you can actually get an investment visa

[Suradit69]

35 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Sounds good.

Let's hope the forensic accounting division of immigration can make time to investigate and scrutinize every Visa applicants financials.

 

 

No, I don't expect any indepth analysis from immigrations but in the past, when doing the renewal, I was asked if I owned or rented. It didn't have any apparent effect on the process but some I/Os seemed to think it was worth asking.

[elviajero]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It was correct. You're talking about a completely different class of visa. The member was CLEARLY talking about getting a special break on the financial requirements for regular retirement extensions. That is clearly NEVER going to happen.

I do recall that Mexico did something like that. Cut the requirements 50 percent for home owners. But last I checked they dropped that.

It wasn't correct. He was referring to getting an investment visa/extension of stay based on buying a condo worth at least 10m baht. However, I was pointing out that there are conditions attached to the condo you can buy that qualifies. You can't buy any old condo.

[ubonjoe]

On 10/26/2018 at 12:03 PM, ubonjoe said:

Another off topic post has been removed. The is a serious topic and there is no room for jokes or other nonsense.

From now on there will be no notice of removals. I your post disappears you can assume that you stepped over the line.

 

And another reminder after 2 previous ones that I posted before.

[KhunFred]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:43 AM, ubonjoe said:

The ball is now in the Immigration Bureaus hand now. They are the ones that are going to have change the rules.

I can prove every cent or sating shown on the income affidavits I have done.

A bank book showing all of it coming in plus the letter I will get in December stating how much I will be getting next year and a statement in January for this years income.

The only problem would be if they decide that "your" proof or "my" proof is not good enough. One would think that tax documents would be sufficient, but thinking is almost pointless unless you are following the money. They aren't doing this merely because they don't like us. I believe an expat who told me he felt it was just another "jobs" program for Thais, opening up more "Cambodia style" visa services, so the money can go straight to Thais and the Embassy won't get their "cut". His overly optimistic view was that it might actually save expats some money.  I remember hearing years ago about the IO who was reportedly "astonished" when he was told that Americans had to pay their embassy, what was then the equivalent of fifty dollars, merely for notarizing a form letter. Seems plausible but it's only conjecture.

Edited October 27, 2018 by KhunFred
clarity

[Suradit69]

7 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

One would think that tax documents would be sufficient,

But I, along with others, do my extension in December/January, so my most recent tax documents (I assume you mean documents sent you by SS or Pension for reporting tax) would be for tax year 2017.

 

I doubt applying for a 2019 extension with documents from 2017 would be acceptable.

[Jingthing]

It wasn't correct. He was referring to getting an investment visa/extension of stay based on buying a condo worth at least 10m baht. However, I was pointing out that there are conditions attached to the condo you can buy that qualifies. You can't buy any old condo.

Again I was clearly referring to retirement visas asserting that the member wishing a special break on financial requirements on that because he owns a condo had best forget about that wish.

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[Jingthing]

I thought deposits from government entities ... Social Security, military pension, etc ... were unaffected by the change at Bangkok Bank NY??

No. If they're sent in IAT format they're fine. If by ACH, not.

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[Suradit69]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

asserting that the member wishing a special break on financial requirements on that because he owns a condo had best forget about that wish.

Yes, I was expressing some wishful thinking about owning a condo to be considered when looking at a retirement extension. Not looking for an investment visa.

[elviajero]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Again I was clearly referring to retirement visas asserting that the member wishing a special break on financial requirements on that because he owns a condo had best forget about that wish.

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Again, I was confirming to @bk6060 that condo ownership to get a visa/permit based on investing in a condo ("investment visa") is dependent on the condo. I wasn't replying to whatever you are talking about.

[Pib]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No. If they're sent in IAT format they're fine. If by ACH, not.
 

IAT is just an international format used by ACH.  The transfer is still via the ACH system.

[Thaidream]

41 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

e only problem would be if they decide that "your" proof or "my" proof is not good enough. One would think that tax documents would be sufficient, but thinking is almost pointless unless you are following the money. They aren't doing this merely because they don't like us. I believe an expat who told me he felt it was just another "jobs" program for Thais, opening up more "Cambodia style" visa services, so the money can go straight to Thais and the Embassy won't get their "cut". His overly optimistic view was that it might actually save expats some money.  I remember hearing years ago about the IO who was reportedly "astonished" when he was told that Americans had to pay their embassy, what was then the equivalent of fifty dollars, merely for notarizing a form letter. Seems plausible but it's only conjecture.

The truth will eventually come out simply by watching how they handle this situation at Thai Imm- will they take a hard line or accept documents that clearly verify what they want to know- proving income that is legal is not that hard- many ways to do it. Actually the Embassy Letter was simply a bridge into the Thai Imm system. The letter always stated they were not verifying that statement only the signature and swearing the Oath which makes the individual responsible under penalty of perjury. Time will tell as each individual goes for their extension and reports back- make sure you note the location of the Imm office you use.

[blackhorse]

the Australian age retirement pension does not cover the amount "Thailand want for your visa in Thailand , if you are on old age single pension = $1600 to $1800 Australian dollar per month at present lucky to get get 40,000 baht not enough to live on in Aussie let alone Thailand,  Aussie $ like having monopoly money " almost worthless up and down like a yo yo only way to top up up your old age pension  ? your need personal super fund income top up your Australian old age pension to cover what Thailand government want for you gain retirement visa, go to Vietnam or Cambodia or Philippines many expats have moved out Go Vietnam they welcome you to come stay ! visas hassle free, you can now buy house or apartment in your name or a business without being married to a local, same in Cambodia. i have moved myself out of Thailand no good staying if you are not welcomed Thai laws change like the wind , many expats have moved for a better life style cost of living food, beer etc, if you like to go out have a beer local bar you pay same price as local viet pay , viets love a beer chat all walks of life mix in many go out after work including local office workers bank, gov employees etc local lady's like a beer, chat myself i love Hanoi or Da nang rent apartment is cheap if you like beach areas plenty of places to rent and live, $1 for a beer on the beach and lot of bars/restaurant cafes night markets same price for all ???? 

 

Is thailand really cheaper than Australia? 

Rent assistance

Higher pension

Concessions on pension card

Free meds on PBS

Real fruit juice free wine 200 baht a bottle

FREE Medicare.. That's the big one! If you have good cover for all emergencies it's gonna be 30 k a month here!

 

As long as your living in a small seaside town or country town it's probably a fair bit cheaper and no worries about the dollar getting smashed so more buying power

 

Still surprised that the embassy here seems to be currently immune to proof of income.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The truth will eventually come out simply by watching how they handle this situation at Thai Imm- will they take a hard line or accept documents that clearly verify what they want to know- proving income that is legal is not that hard- many ways to do it. Actually the Embassy Letter was simply a bridge into the Thai Imm system. The letter always stated they were not verifying that statement only the signature and swearing the Oath which makes the individual responsible under penalty of perjury. Time will tell as each individual goes for their extension and reports back- make sure you note the location of the Imm office you use.

Yeap...will have to wait and see how Thai immigration handles this. 

 

But with so many different possible sources of income, income docs in different formats & languages, some docs a person can get online while others you can get mailed to you, etc., I'm sure Thai Immigration are scratching their heads as to what they could understand, accept, and feel there is a low chance of fraud.  

 

And let's hope they "do not" end-up just saying the heck with it....too hard....will just go with something simple like the current Bt800K/400K in a Thai bank method or periodic (such as monthly) transfers into Thai bank totally Bt800K/400K over the last 12 months.  Basically methods that show money of a certain minimum amount in a Thai bank account.

 

Yeap...will have to wait and see how Thai immigration handles this. 

 

 

[Suradit69]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yeap...will have to wait and see how Thai immigration handles this. 

They may regret pressuring the embassies into verifying something the embassies knew was impossible for them to do. Could make queues to do extension renewals a mile long if they have to wade through unfamiliar documents.

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

 

Apparently there was some meeting regarding the required verification of income recently. Obviously that didn't go well, but it's possible immigrations didn't expect that the embassies would react by refusing to issue further letters.  Maybe, and I am speculating, there will be some additional effort to resolve this. Unfortunately in today's' geo-political environment, some governments are loathe to be seen to be accepting pressure from certain western countries.

 

We don't know what additional conditions were attached to this verification issue.

 

I have a feeling that it somehow might involve guarantees which hold the Embassy in question liable for costs associated with someone not having enough money when for example they overstay, need to be repatriated for some reason, lie in a coma for months and run out of money.

 

It will all be about money one way or another, we just don't know exactly what they want thas the embassies have rejected outright.

[Larryst]

I wonder if they would accept 1099-R from Social Security, 401K Annuities and from government agencies 1099-R. It should show how much made each year.

 

[galt67]

11 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yeap...will have to wait and see how Thai immigration handles this. 

 

But with so many different possible sources of income, income docs in different formats & languages, some docs a person can get online while others you can get mailed to you, etc., I'm sure Thai Immigration are scratching their heads as to what they could understand, accept, and feel there is a low chance of fraud.  

 

And let's hope they "do not" end-up just saying the heck with it....too hard....will just go with something simple like the current Bt800K/400K in a Thai bank method or periodic (such as monthly) transfers into Thai bank totally Bt800K/400K over the last 12 months.  Basically methods that show money of a certain minimum amount in a Thai bank account.

 

Yeap...will have to wait and see how Thai immigration handles this. 

 

 

1

Good point on IMM (possibly) 'just going with something simple.'

 

Clearly, for IMM it would the easiest, cleanest thing to do. And could be done quickly.

 

No need for them to review (potentially) multiple documents, check veracity, etc.

 

They simply review/confirm the 'monthly average deposits' into a Thai bank.

 

[Jingthing]

IAT is just an international format used by ACH.  The transfer is still via the ACH system.

You know what I meant. Domestic VS. international format. So no not all social security sends are formatted in IAT.

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[Jingthing]

I wonder if they would accept 1099-R from Social Security, 401K Annuities and from government agencies 1099-R. It should show how much made each year.
 

As if they're experts in financial forms from a plethora of nations.

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[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, Larryst said:

wonder if they would accept 1099-R from Social Security, 401K Annuities and from government agencies 1099-R. It should show how much made each year.

If Thai imm wants to verify incme as much as it can be verified- most Americans on retirement extension get their income from the following sources:

 

1.  Government sources-  Social Security; Military retirement; Veterans Disability Pension

2. Company Pensions

3. Other income- rental / stocks/investments.

 

Evidence- Government Letters; Company Letters; Broker summaries

Secondary Evidence-  Bank account summary showing direct deposit in same amounts as Primary letters

Tertiary Evidence-  Transfer records/ATM Debit Cars/ATM Slips.

 

The above would cover 90% of all evidence needed- same letterheads etc.  

UK citizens have the same system- all in English- easily read

Other countries - can be requested translated into English or Thai.

A US Embassy rep/UK Embassy rep can provide sample letters

 

This is not too difficult to understand- Thai Imm in certain locations have already asked for proof with letters and the above has been provided and accepted.

 

The profile of the majority of retired people in Thailand is not that of a person working illegally; involved in an illegal  business;  laundering money  etc. The age profile is 50+++

 

Almost all of the retired population simply want to live out their lives in peace and enjoy the fruits of their labor. If Thai Imm makes it too difficult- they are targeting the wrong people.

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

I have medical insurance for life as part of my pension. I also own my own condo. It would be nice if these factors could be considered in the equation by immigrations since they both limit how much money I need to spend each month or the risk of me running up unpaid bills for medical expenses.

 

Probably will need to stop paying my hospital bills (my insurance reimburses me after I've paid for medical expenses or pharmacy charges) or for other shopping using credit cards since that doesn't help me with immigrations and the Baht 65,000 a month.

 

I do not want to suggest that there should be different classes of expat retirees, but circumstances do differ if you own your own home and do have insurance compared to someone renting a bedsit and/or without insurance compared to others who've got that covered.

Circumstances do differ but immigration understandably wants to keep the rules fairly simple and uniform, much too difficult to apply otherwise.

 

Re credit card you might like to get one tied to a Thai bank account for online shopping - here they are not exactly credit cards, as the funds are set aside for it, but it serves the purpose for online shopping as long as you get a widely accepted card.

 

 

[elviajero]

44 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

They may regret pressuring the embassies into verifying something the embassies knew was impossible for them to do. Could make queues to do extension renewals a mile long if they have to wade through unfamiliar documents.

I agree.

 

However, it would be very simple to insist that the applicant has transferred the equivalent of at least 480/780K baht — during the year prior to every renewal — to their Thai bank account, That just leaves the problem of proving income for the first extension, which could be satisfied with the current embassy letters/affidavits, or transfer/s in the first 2/3 months equal to at least 2/3 months income.

 

I can’t see the accepting the myriad of statements etc. that applicants would have. That’s why they use the embassies.

Edited October 27, 2018 by elviajero

[chanangrak]

is not one solution to just deposit the 400kbhat or 800kbhat 3 months before visa time and then after visa approved live on that money or move it to another place until next visa...or can't the social security department in home country give you a formal letter stating you receive a pension as proof?....I do understand that a lot of guys don't have savings so this is not possible.People suggest moving elsewhere but where.?...Cambodia,Vietnam,Philippines......start anew life with what ? a suitcase full of clothes......I would imagine if you have a lifestyle in Thailand,with household goods and a bike or a car and a Thai lady it would be very hard to start again...and getting older each year........or go home  which is ok if you have property or a family to live with....the worse thing?????the thais don't care and the governments of the countries you worked in for decades paying taxes and spending money don't care cause now your just a non contributing parasite.....aint it grand growing old gracefully...........

[Russell17au]

9 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If Thai imm wants to verify incme as much as it can be verified- most Americans on retirement extension get their income from the following sources:

 

1.  Government sources-  Social Security; Military retirement; Veterans Disability Pension

2. Company Pensions

3. Other income- rental / stocks/investments.

 

Evidence- Government Letters; Company Letters; Broker summaries

Secondary Evidence-  Bank account summary showing direct deposit in same amounts as Primary letters

Tertiary Evidence-  Transfer records/ATM Debit Cars/ATM Slips.

 

The above would cover 90% of all evidence needed- same letterheads etc.  

UK citizens have the same system- all in English- easily read

Other countries - can be requested translated into English or Thai.

A US Embassy rep/UK Embassy rep can provide sample letters

 

This is not too difficult to understand- Thai Imm in certain locations have already asked for proof with letters and the above has been provided and accepted.

 

The profile of the majority of retired people in Thailand is not that of a person working illegally; involved in an illegal  business;  laundering money  etc. The age profile is 50+++

 

Almost all of the retired population simply want to live out their lives in peace and enjoy the fruits of their labor. If Thai Imm makes it too difficult- they are targeting the wrong people.

 

 

It is easy for you to give those documents and the proof to your embassy for verification and your embassy give you the letter of verified income for you to take to immigration. Problem solved. It only needs the embassy to view the certified documents and maybe change the letter to suit

[Jeffrey346]

36 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

We don't know what additional conditions were attached to this verification issue.

 

I have a feeling that it somehow might involve guarantees which hold the Embassy in question liable for costs associated with someone not having enough money when for example they overstay, need to be repatriated for some reason, lie in a coma for months and run out of money.

 

It will all be about money one way or another, we just don't know exactly what they want thas the embassies have rejected outright.

That's ridiculous. I don't see how any Gov can hold an Embassy responsible for any individuals actions.

[Dale75]

Well, it's been a long 3 weeks. as I type that I'm frankly amazed that it is so long. The facts don't lie though: the British Embassy (BE) income letter news broke on 08-Oct-18. The US Embassy (USE) equivalent on 26-Oct-18. The trigger for these events/decisions was a supposed meeting between Thai Immigration Office (TIO) and 'major foreign embassies?' sometime in May.
Allegedly, at this meeting TIO indicated that they expected that foreign embassies 'verified' the income claims of their nationals. The UKE & USE subsequently decided that they could not satisfy the TIO interpretation of 'verification' and discontinued their provision of income letters.
(Incidentally, I think that any opinions that think this was a 'cost cutting' exercise have no idea how the UK/US governments view such trivial monies).
Such are the facts (expecting derision from certain quarters). 
Another fact is that any forum will be populated by people with a wide range in intelligence and financial standing (though there is not neccessarily a correlation between the two).
Both the Uk-based and US-based threads have been horribly sidetracked by discussions about international banking, health insurance, investment strategies, property speculation, one-upmanship, politics and good old bickering.
It seems to me (oh, oh. Trouble ahead), that there are only two questions.
1. Do you want to live in Thailand or do you just want to merely give the impression that you live in Thailand?
2. Acknowledge that the differences between 1st World countries (US/UK et al) and 3rd World (or Developing Countries for the PC brigade/SJW) are diminishing as we speak.
If you really want to live in Thailand is it such a threat that TIO would like you to demonstrate this by actually putting some money into the country?
I could go on but I'll call a halt here.

[KiChakayan]

4 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I agree.

 

However, it would be very simple to insist that the applicant has transferred the equivalent of at least 480/780K baht — during the year prior to every renewal — to their Thai bank account, That just leaves the problem of proving income for the first extension, which could be satisfied with the current embassy letters/affidavits, or transfer/s in the first 2/3 months equal to at least 2/3 months income.

There would be several ways to ensure that many possibly most retirees have a steady income, for life. But there is the cultural gap, and an obvious reluctance for anything pragmatic within the Thai bureaucracy. However, in all honesty, we should all agree that the 800 Kbahts is one of those pragmatic possibilities.