Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[Will27]

37 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

My friend Gloating at other visas misfortunes has been a sport here on Thai Visa ever sense the 30 day visa runners were taken out behind the wood shed for a good trashing by loads of self righteous members here......

 

 

 

Not just about visas.

Gloating at others full stop is a sport on TV.

[sambum]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

Yes, unfortunately that is true.

Indeed - farangs can't vote!

[NanLaew]

8 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Was the US blindly following the Brits?

Great Britain leads the way.

 

twas ever thus

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, giddyup said:

That was already in place, it didn't satisfy Thai authority obviously.The embassies couldn't lie and say they could verify income, all they could do was witness and sign your declaration.

All the BE had to do was listen, nod their heads and whistle 'La Paloma' like all the other European embassies. I remember once when my estranged wife bought some land with her old but still valid ID card in her maiden name, the land office weren't amused but the boss just shrugged his shoulders and said ''Thai law is like water flowing under a bridge, it's eddies change direction every second.'' 

[NanLaew]

Just now, soalbundy said:

All the BE had to do was listen, nod their heads and whistle 'La Paloma' like all the other European embassies. I remember once when my estranged wife bought some land with her old but still valid ID card in her maiden name, the land office weren't amused but the boss just shrugged his shoulders and said ''Thai law is like water flowing under a bridge, it's eddies change direction every second.'' 

So you know Fast Eddie as well, eh?

[oznomad]

10 minutes ago, garzhe said:

Actually the 2017/18 rates are not quite that bad

Income Band	Rate	Notes
0  – 150,000	Exempt
150,000 – 300,000	5%	New Tax Rate
300,000 – 500,000	10%
500,000 – 750,000	15%	New Tax Rate
750,000 – 1,000,000	20%
1,000,000 – 2,000,000	25%	New Tax Rate
2,000,000 – 4,000,000	30%
4,000,001 and Up	35%	New Tax Rate (Reduced from 37%)

Grab your salt and pepper - there is more 'seasoning' to be done.

If your pension is brought into Thailand in the year it was paid, it is taxable in Thailand.

If seasoned for a year and brought in the next, calendar, year it is tax exempt.

 

[KiChakayan]

20 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

"Those who earn less than 150,000 Thai Baht are exempt from income tax.

Anything over this amount and less than THB 500,000 is taxed at 10%.

Between this amount and 1 million THB the tax rate is 20%.

Over this amount and below 4 million THB is taxed at 30%."

 

So married guys importing just the right amount of money will pay 10%.

Retired guys get hit for 20%

 

But if you homeland has a reciprocal tax agreement with Thailand, it is up to you to decide where you want to pay your taxes.

Transfer your money to Thailand from an an account that keeps a balance greater than the sum of transfers during a given year. Or better, transfer from an account that doesn't show any credit during a given year, this needs a bit of juggling between multiple accounts.

Now, they could change the law concerning income from abroad, but this would affect more well off Thais then foreigners. ????

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Well, based on their previous happiness with proof of last years income somewhere else on the planet, the historical income was covered. With the income letters now being kicked into touch its total irrelevance has just become officially acknowledged.

 

With a lump sum sitting in the bank for 2 or 3 months already, this week looks good as well.

 

With evidence of a few months of regular income, I reckon that's good enough for the future as they see it.

 

Can I help you with anything else?

dont solicit or require or need ur help

 

[garzhe]

1 minute ago, oznomad said:

Grab your salt and pepper - there is more 'seasoning' to be done.

If your pension is brought into Thailand in the year it was paid, it is taxable in Thailand.

If seasoned for a year and brought in the next, calendar, year it is tax exempt.

 

Thats right but doesn't help if you need for a visa extension.

[sambum]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

All the BE had to do was listen, nod their heads and whistle 'La Paloma' like all the other European embassies. I remember once when my estranged wife bought some land with her old but still valid ID card in her maiden name, the land office weren't amused but the boss just shrugged his shoulders and said ''Thai law is like water flowing under a bridge, it's eddies change direction every second.'' 

Wonderfully descriptive last sentence!

 

But I'm afraid I don't agree with the first one!

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, oznomad said:

Grab your salt and pepper - there is more 'seasoning' to be done.

If your pension is brought into Thailand in the year it was paid, it is taxable in Thailand.

If seasoned for a year and brought in the next, calendar, year it is tax exempt.

 

There are tax exemptions,  to avoid double taxation, with EU countries, I remember a few years back that one province wanted to tax a German but rowed back quickly when they got a letter from the German embassy.

[gaviny]

Not correct. If you have the accepted embassy certificate the money does not have to paid into a Thai bank account on a monthly basis.
PHUKET Immigration does not require that. I don't know for other immigration offices.

But that is so inconsistent , if this is the case , why does the 800000 baht have to be in a Thai bank and not your home country.Can someone clarify whether the 65000 baht has to hit your Thai account monthly or just that you need to earn it .

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[NanLaew]

24 minutes ago, garzhe said:

Actually the 2017/18 rates are not quite that bad

Income Band	Rate	Notes
0  – 150,000	Exempt
150,000 – 300,000	5%	New Tax Rate
300,000 – 500,000	10%
500,000 – 750,000	15%	New Tax Rate
750,000 – 1,000,000	20%
1,000,000 – 2,000,000	25%	New Tax Rate
2,000,000 – 4,000,000	30%
4,000,001 and Up	35%	New Tax Rate (Reduced from 37%)

Thanks for that.

 

The 400k married and 800k retiree ae still liable for only 10% and 20% respectively.

[gentlemanjackdarby]

7 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The thing is that anyone who is on a government pension can prove their income quite easy and it is also easy for the embassies to be able to verify government pensions. It would not take much for each of the embassies to have access to the amounts that are paid for the different government pensions. I can print mine out of official Australian government letterhead and it tells the type of pension that I am receiving so how hard would it be for the embassies to have a list of the different government pensions to check.

I'm an American and, in America at least, there are somewhat strict privacy laws against sharing of information amongst government entities; as I understand it, the UK, EU, Australia, etc. having much stricter privacy standards than does the U.S.

 

That being said, in this day-and-age it, it would be trivial and quick for an embassy to verify legitimate sources, balances, and income amounts if they chose to do so.

 

All that really need be done to accomplish this is for the embassy to provide a few low-end, ultra secure computers (Chromebooks would be my recommendation) connected to the internet via a VPN to 'back home' which would be used by the expat to login to, for example, U. S. Social Security for a U.S. citizen, his bank account, brokerage account, etc. and print the pension, brokerage balance letter, bank statement, etc. that is now provided online by these entities, while being observed by the embassy functionary that would then certify both the document and the declaration.

 

Modern web browsers, such as Chrome, show in the status bar when one is connected to the 'real' domain of legitimate businesses, so there is no real chance for an expat to spoof the domain of say, U.S. Social Security or Citibank, for example.

 

For those concerned about the security of their login credentials using a computer other than their own, any financial institution worth keeping one's money in offers two-factor authentication, so it would not be possible for a 'rogue' embassy employee to login to the expat's account at some later time.

 

As well, a paranoid expat could simply change his password and, if highly paranoid, his user ID after the embassy visit using his personal 'trusted device'.

 

And, since Chromebooks are as secure as it gets outside of governments, with things like verified boot to ensure no operating system tampering, no real way to install things like keyloggers to collect credentials, segregation of users, no such thing as an 'admin' account as in Windows, etc. etc. etc., there is no real worry about using one that one doesn't own to log into a financial institution. And of course, there's always the good old reboot option to clear the Chrome browser.

 

I manage the external financial audit for my employer and that is how our external auditors verify the existence of and the amounts in our bank accounts - no longer do they send paper bank confirmations; it's done online under the watchful eye of a member of the audit team who then 'signs off' on that audit segment.

[malt25]

27 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

If an expat is contributing to the economy and being a good citizen perhaps even taking a Thai family out of poverty, what does it matter if there is a bit of fraud involved.

Don't tell me there is not lots of fraud involved amongst the police and politicians themselves. None of

them are better human beings than we are.

Here we go again. Someone bringing logic & common sense into the issue.  That's NOT the way it works here.

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

Another dreadful idea, implemented in Non O-X visa. Many of us have international expat health cover, so why would be forced to buy another worthless insurance? To give an idea, my Cigna UN cover has not limit, but I pay 10% of OPD, the first 350 Swiss Francs every year, my yearly max contribution being 1000 Francs. You cannot expect a Thai IO to understand that as it doesn't fit into the lousy Thai pattern of 100% refund with a max coverage?

you are pointing to a real problem area here

medical insurances - travel insurances - government coverages

differ from country to country

 

I just can't see Thai immigration navigate in this.

 

[JackThompson]

 

 

18 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

A "stabilize and send home" type medical-insurance scheme for all foreigners as a pre-requisite for a "permitted-stay" stamp would be the only way to end that potential liability.

Another dreadful idea, implemented in Non O-X visa. Many of us have international expat health cover, so why would be forced to buy another worthless insurance? To give an idea, my Cigna UN cover has not limit, but I pay 10% of OPD, the first 350 Swiss Francs every year, my yearly max contribution being 1000 Francs. You cannot expect a Thai IO to understand that as it doesn't fit into the lousy Thai pattern of 100% refund with a max coverage?

What I am describing is a very low-cost / one-rate fee on-entry that all non-Thais pay, based only on the length of the permitted-stay stamp they are receiving, which covers the costs of foreigners who are incapacitated/injured here with no funds or insurance to pay the bill.  "Treatment" extends only until one can survive a flight home.  If you have "real insurance" or money, you would have other options.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, gaviny said:

But that is so inconsistent , if this is the case , why does the 800000 baht have to be in a Thai bank and not your home country.Can someone clarify whether the 65000 baht has to hit your Thai account monthly or just that you need to earn it .

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

you just need to show this income, mine goes into a German bank account, IO has always been happy with that.

[NanLaew]

16 minutes ago, garzhe said:

But the UK, US and Aus so far will not supply that. Whose idea was that. I dont think the embassy's.

Each of these embassies have stated that they cannot fulfill Thai Immigration's request for income VERIFICATION and have thus these embassies decided to stop providing letters of proof of overseas income.

[Joe Mcseismic]

37 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

"Those who earn less than 150,000 Thai Baht are exempt from income tax.

Anything over this amount and less than THB 500,000 is taxed at 10%.

Between this amount and 1 million THB the tax rate is 20%.

Over this amount and below 4 million THB is taxed at 30%."

 

So married guys importing just the right amount of money will pay 10%.

Retired guys get hit for 20%

 

But if you homeland has a reciprocal tax agreement with Thailand, it is up to you to decide where you want to pay your taxes.

All true, but, with one important caveat. Taxable income must have been earned within the year for it to be taxed. If it was earned two years ago, no tax need be payed. As most money being brought in is savings and probably earned more than a year ago, no tax is due.

Also, in Thailand, it is you that has to go to the tax office, they don't come to you.

[zydeco]

6 minutes ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

I'm an American and, in America at least, there are somewhat strict privacy laws against sharing of information amongst government entities; as I understand it, the UK, EU, Australia, etc. having much stricter privacy standards than does the U.S.

 

That being said, in this day-and-age it, it would be trivial and quick for an embassy to verify legitimate sources, balances, and income amounts if they chose to do so.

 

All that really need be done to accomplish this is for the embassy to provide a few low-end, ultra secure computers (Chromebooks would be my recommendation) connected to the internet via a VPN to 'back home' which would be used by the expat to login to, for example, U. S. Social Security for a U.S. citizen, his bank account, brokerage account, etc. and print the pension, brokerage balance letter, bank statement, etc. that is now provided online by these entities, while being observed by the embassy functionary that would then certify both the document and the declaration.

 

Modern web browsers, such as Chrome, show in the status bar when one is connected to the 'real' domain of legitimate businesses, so there is no real chance for an expat to spoof the domain of say, U.S. Social Security or Citibank, for example.

 

For those concerned about the security of their login credentials using a computer other than their own, any financial institution worth keeping one's money in offers two-factor authentication, so it would not be possible for a 'rogue' embassy employee to login to the expat's account at some later time.

 

As well, a paranoid expat could simply change his password and, if highly paranoid, his user ID after the embassy visit using his personal 'trusted device'.

 

And, since Chromebooks are as secure as it gets outside of governments, with things like verified boot to ensure no operating system tampering, no real way to install things like keyloggers to collect credentials, segregation of users, no such thing as an 'admin' account as in Windows, etc. etc. etc., there is no real worry about using one that one doesn't own to log into a financial institution. And of course, there's always the good old reboot option to clear the Chrome browser.

 

I manage the external financial audit for my employer and that is how our external auditors verify the existence of and the amounts in our bank accounts - no longer do they send paper bank confirmations; it's done online under the watchful eye of a member of the audit team who then 'signs off' on that audit segment.

You know. It sounds easier to just put the damn money in the bank and not worry about the letter.

[NanLaew]

3 minutes ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

I'm an American and, in America at least, there are somewhat strict privacy laws against sharing of information amongst government entities; as I understand it, the UK, EU, Australia, etc. having much stricter privacy standards than does the U.S.

 

That being said, in this day-and-age it, it would be trivial and quick for an embassy to verify legitimate sources, balances, and income amounts if they chose to do so.

First paragraph says there are strict privacy laws.

 

The second paragraph suggests that the strictness and privacy can be quickly and individually relaxed so private individuals can do something trivial such as pitch their tent in Thailand.

 

Nope, sorry, I don't see how one can work with the other.

[Pib]

Tax Agreements between Thailand and other countries such as AU, UK, and US can be downloaded or viewed on screen at below Thai Revenue Dept website.  Looks like they have agreement with 51 countries.

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/766.0.html

 

 

And specific links from above for AU, UK, and US

For AU: http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/australia_e.pdf

 

For UK: http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/english_e.pdf

 

For US:  http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf

 

[jimn]

1 hour ago, glegolo said:

You assume wrong my friend, I am from Sweden, one of the main countries by the way..

 

glegolo

Ahh right. I like Sweden by the way and impressed with the way you use technology. I have a few friends from Sweden. I wouldnt say you were one of the main countries though especially with the immigrant problem that your government seems to have imposed on the population.

[Brickbat]

It seems very obvious to me. Any farang here that has no cash to deposit or not enough income is a liability, should they require hospital care, which is the biggest expense as we get older. The Thai govt does not wish to shoulder the burden as most staff in hospitals are of that Thai notion that all farangs arecrich 

[xtrnuno41]

27 minutes ago, garzhe said:

The game has to be taxation. I think your referring to the CRS (common Reporting Standard) Where countries interchange assets of citizens. Thailand is not party to the CRS so no information is exchanged with other countries. So dont worry your Thai bank accounts are safe from prying eyes unless perhaps your a billionaire.

AH ok there is such a system. And Thailand not into it. As you said they are helping rich to hide there money from the country where they come from then, as the system should be vv. In this new way of not giving income letters anymore, they want to force Thailand into this system and see what is in Thailand for hidden huge bank accounts. So the governments can take action on that on lost taxes or what ever is happening on those accounts. Total control again. 

[AJBangkok]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

They (Stat Decs) are still not worth the paper they're written on.

 

MAY be imprisoned.

I haven't heard of many, if any.

The Australian government shouldn’t care if the Thai immigration accepts a stat dec or not. The problem I have is what right does the Australian government have to decide what I can and cannot make as a statutory declaration. Their job is to witness my signature that’s it they can not tell me what to declare or not. Next they will tell me what I am allowed to think.

 

I don’t use a stat dec for my visa but I do question the legality of the embassy's decision to unilaterally decide what content included in a statutory declaration is acceptable for them to witness. 

[GinBoy2]

This can hardly come as a shock to anyone surely?

 

You'd need to be seriously pulling the wool over your eyes to avoid the truth of what's going on.

 

Regardless of what you think about your respective embassy, none of them are going to agree to move the responsibility of, essentially guaranteeing income from the individual to them, it would be insane.

 

You know you need to plan for what's the next move in this chess game.

Watch for the increase in the deposit requirements, I'd bet my house on it that is coming

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, GinBoy2 said:

This can hardly come as a shock to anyone surely?

 

You'd need to be seriously pulling the wool over your eyes to avoid the truth of what's going on.

 

Regardless of what you think about your respective embassy, none of them are going to agree to move the responsibility of, essentially guaranteeing income from the individual to them, it would be insane.

 

You know you need to plan for what's the next move in this chess game.

Watch for the increase in the deposit requirements, I'd bet my house on it that is coming

yeah,yeah bake a pie eat a pie, more doom and gloom

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

Are you a "lobbyist"? Just the thought of lobbying my embassy gives me goosebumps.

Having pissed on all other suggestions could you not enlighten us with one of your own?