Update: New Thai immigration rules for income!

[Pattaya46]

18 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And if that's going to be kosher, why is it just limited to those particular 3rd party  countries?

Why not the neighboring Swiss, or Czechs or Italians, etc etc?

Why not? I would think maybe because these other countries have a local embassy's annexe in Pattaya.

What make me think that is that about 10 years ago this Austrian Consulate in Pattaya was also doing letters for French people;

This stopped when French Embassy organised a monthly "annexe" in Pattaya where it's possible to get this letter without going to Bangkok.

[mogandave]

I can get a 12 month statement using the K-Bank App.

[luckyluke]

22 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Why not the neighboring Swiss, or Czechs or Italians, etc etc?

Maybe these also, I don't know 

I am Belgian and use the services of the Austrian Consulate in Pattaya for I think now 10 years.

Never had a problem at Immigration, never had to show extra documents.

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, ResandePohm said:

I agree! Also what if your pension is not from your home country? Do you need to pay it first into a bank in your home country and then transfer to Thailand? That would mean paying two transfer fees.

As long as it is coming from outside Thailand, you should be OK.  If asked for "additional documentation" (as can happen now with income-letters), your bank and pension statements from where ever it is being paid should suffice.

 

5 hours ago, nasa123 said:

But still you can NOT open a bank account in Phuket if you don't have B-visa whit work permit, Bangkok Bank,Kasikorn+++ if you don't B-visa+++ sorry no account.

A trip to Bangkok or Pattaya (maybe closer options) could solve this - assuming every branch of every bank in the Phuket area is doing that.

 

4 hours ago, Nielsk said:

I wonder if I transfere 65000 Baht into my Thai account every month from Denmark, then I will not have  enough money left in my danish bank to pay my bills and daily consumption. My queation is, Do you think it will be OK I withdraw money from Thaiaccount monthly  while in Denmark.  If they just want to see the proof of me being able to have 65000 B to put into my thaiaccount, then they have it.  Whatever is left in the end of the month should not concern TI ? 

Ofcours I will loose money with this sort of transactions, but that's the  price i have to pay for having another years extention.  I hope I have expressed myself in an understandable way,

Perhaps, get a MC/Visa card on a Thai account, and use that to spend while in Denmark.  Or, send money back using DeeMoney, bitcoin, or similar to pay home-country bills. 

 

You might not want "international wire-xfers" going directly out of the account being used to substantiate your annual retirement-extension, as that could look like "recycling money" - an inherent weakness built-in to their new scheme.

[david555]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Two of the three countries I mentioned above are also EU members (excluding Switzerland), and all three are Schengen members. So that doesn't really explain it.

 

Probably a agreement under E.U. members , as a Belgium I can use the Dutch or other ones in exceptional circumstances if no other Embassy is available , this is not the case for that affidavit I think , so must be an understanding amongst those, but as Europeans in E.U. organization , and a consular is most a business man , example Thai consulate in Antwerp Belgium is run by a insurance company who has that consulate in annex ….

[quandow]

On 1/4/2019 at 5:31 AM, Spidey said:

I still wonder how you prove that the 65k baht is from your home country. Foreign transfers aren't always clear in some bank books.

Good point! Couldn't I just transfer 65k from my Kasikorn account to my SCB account each month, pull it out in cash, put back in Kasikorn and repeat monthly?

[chicowoodduck]

No sense getting your knickers in a knot until it all shakes out.....in a few years time....lol....in the meantime just keep our hoop jumping  clothes near the door.....????????

[MuuKondiao]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:39 PM, ubonjoe said:

The bank will be able to confirm that. A statement done by them may show it.

It seems to me from reading the comments that i cannot just continue to receive my VA disability into my U.S. bank and (after I open a Thai bank account here) transfer it online myself into the Thai account.

Have I got that right?

And before getting a Thai bank acct. to request Uncle Sam to change the D.D. to, I have to have a permanent residence - which I cannot count on since getting a visa and extensions is not at all guaranteed.

Is that an accurate picture of the situation?

[david555]

4 minutes ago, quandow said:

Good point! Couldn't I just transfer 65k from my Kasikorn account to my SCB account each month, pull it out in cash, put back in Kasikorn and repeat monthly?

Codes for international transfers by Kasikorn  (marked in yellow)

KK codes.pdf

[Saraburi121]

Details of Non-Immigrant O extension request for US citizen married to Thai citizen with monthly Income Affidavit from US embassy for over 40K per month at Saraburi Immigration:

 

-Had US Embassy Affidavit dated December 2018 noting over 40K per month in retirement income. No work permit, I don't work here. Visa expires 29 January.

-Just moved to Thailand from US with Thai wife in Nov 2018 with 90 day Non-O visa from US applying for extension for one year.

-Saraburi Immigration denied the income affidavit stating that after January 1st 2019 that US Embassy and Australia Embassy affidavits would no longer be accepted and the only proof of income was B400,000 held in a Thai bank account for two months for first extension.  I offered monthly statements of my military pension that were rejected. 

-IO showed briefly, not enough time for my wife to read then put away,  a document in Thai that said the monthly US income affidavit was no longer valid after January 1st 2019 and said the document providing authority for denial was from the central office.  The IO made a phone call to Bangkok office and same answer.  The immigration folks were very helpful and provided my wife a document in Thai that said the same, 400,000 Baht for 2 months on the first extension and then 3 months for subsequent. No other way.

-They were kind to do a two month extension in order to get funds transferred from US to my Thai bank account to season two months. 

-enough time to xfer money but sad for those who don't have the funds.

 

Immigration offices vary but this was my experience at Saraburi on 4 Jan 2019.

[JackThompson]

12 minutes ago, MuuKondiao said:

It seems to me from reading the comments that i cannot just continue to receive my VA disability into my U.S. bank and (after I open a Thai bank account here) transfer it online myself into the Thai account.

Have I got that right?

The new rules require you xfer the minimum amount required monthly, so you CAN manually xfer it from your USA account.  The key is to make sure you xfer that minimum amount every single month, and that the transfer shows in your Thai account as "Foreign Transfer."  More details of the new income-proof (sic) system will come in time - we are working from leaked and 2nd hand reports of a draft document.

 

14 minutes ago, MuuKondiao said:

And before getting a Thai bank acct. to request Uncle Sam to change the D.D. to, I have to have a permanent residence - which I cannot count on since getting a visa and extensions is not at all guaranteed.

Is that an accurate picture of the situation?

Up to you if you want to set up a direct-deposit of your payment from the VA to a Thai account (assuming this is possible) - but this is not necessary, based on what we know so far.  Personally, I would prefer such a thing go to a bank in a country where I had an absolute right to be at all times - not where I had "temporary permission" to stay as a "non-immigrant" - a year at a time (at most).

 

As far as a residence-certificate to open a bank-acct - not every branch of every bank requires this every time - but some do, and some reports indicate many/most in some areas do.  You may have to bank-branch shop, as each branch can make up its own policy, it seems.  But, if your local immigration-office won't give you a residence-cert, to open a bank-acct (or other purpose), you can get one from the USA Embassy.

[jackdd]

12 hours ago, nasa123 said:

But still you can NOT open a bank account in Phuket if you don't have B-visa whit work permit, Bangkok Bank,Kasikorn+++ if you don't B-visa+++ sorry no account.

Try Krungsri, there seem to be quite a few branches which will open an account if you can show a 6 months+ rental contract

[elviajero]

37 minutes ago, quandow said:

Good point! Couldn't I just transfer 65k from my Kasikorn account to my SCB account each month, pull it out in cash, put back in Kasikorn and repeat monthly?

You can’t. Your bank will need to confirm they are foreign transfers.

[Saraburi121]

Opening a bank account is another subject in this forum but will expand a bit. Tried opening an account with Kasikorn Bank upon arrival in Bangkok to no avail, many branches tried.   Bangkok Bank opened an account on first attempt but I am married to Thai. I did not read all the pages before on your situation.

 

I am retired US and I choose to wire money to my Thai bank account and costs me $25 from my bank and B500 for BKK bank and I choose gambling on exchange rates when is the best. Saves me on the ATM fees in the long.  Good advice from Jack. 

[SooKee]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Although apparently not required by law, my IO for some years required me to show that my money came from abroad, and I have continued to do so every since.

 

I haven't tried showing the credit advices themselves to Imm, not sure they'd understand them. I use the Credit Advices to show my local Kasikorn branch in order for them to  include that information in the bank letter, since their system does not indicate foreign transfers and the local branch staff would thus have no way of knowing where transfers came from. In other words, the bank letter I get each year contains 2 paragraphs:

 

1. (name) has account no. X with balance of X baht on (date).

 

2. Funds were transferred to this account from overseas as follows: (date), amount X, from country X via (bank name).

 

Item #1 they immediately understand as Thais also have need of this for various purposes, it is a common letter to get. #2 takes some explaining as few foreigners where I live. I find it helpful to always keep of a copy of the prior year's letter to show the bank so they understand what it is exactly I need them to say, then I give that to them with the credit advice(s) and explain to take the information from there.

 

It's worked fine for the past 15 years or so.

 

 

Would I be correct in assuming that your transfers go from one account that you or someone holds outside Thailand to your account in Thailand?  In that case I can see the credit advice providing all the detail the bank needs as the before the money hits your account there is only one other bank involved, the originating bank outside Thailand.

 

With Transferwise (though I'd really be happy to be wrong) their business model creates a snag.  If I send money to Thailand using TW, I pay the money to TW from my account, TW send it from their bank to BKK bank in Thailand THEN BKK bank send it to my Kasikorn account.  That is where I see the potential problem with the credit advice.  I can see it just saying originating bank BKK Bank, Thailand (e.g. the bank that as far as Kasikorn are concerned sent them the money), receiving bank, Kasikorn.  It's the UK bank, to another UK bank, to BKK Thailand to Kasikorn route, with only the latter two likely to feature in the Kasikorn.  The money arriving from the UK to BKK bank would I suspect technically be none of Kasikorn's business (or concern) and thus, highly likely to appear in a Kasikorn audit trail.  As I said, I'll ask for one in respect of my latest transfer, see what it says.

 

I really do hope that banking regulations require banks to have access to the whole audit trail of incoming funds and if TI has been in discussion with the banks that MIGHT be why Kasikorn has started using it's new descriptor that might allow such transfers to be readily identified.

[balo]

So much fuzz about nothing. 

 

All the agents I have talked to the last 2 months have confirmed they will still offer 800k in/out in 2019 . 

15k fee and everything will be taken care of. Some people are too scared to use them but this is official stamp business as normal . 

Nothing to worry about. 

 

 

 

 

 

[gk10002000]

Just a further comment on people that have their social security payments direct deposited into a Thai bank.  Many people still have financial interests in the USA or have USA bills to pay or other reasons to have to make payments in the USA, perhaps they subscribe to services or things, or have any of a thousand reasons why they need money in the USA.  Transferring all of their social security payments into a Thai bank account would make paying things in the USA with those monies just another challenge.  Now, given that few people have social security payments totaling 2,000 USD a month which is about the 65K baht retirement income level, it makes one wonder how the typical social security receiver is meeting the minimum 65K income requirement?  Of course they could have other income sources, pensions, military, investment etc.  But at first glance it looks dicey as to how many income affidavits were really accurate and truthful

[dontoearth]

On 1/4/2019 at 10:15 AM, Caldera said:

It will be interesting to see how they will handle new (future) retirees from 2020 on - will they expect them to start their monthly deposits one year before applying for their first extension?

    What future retirees?  ????????  Thaivisaforum found 1,000's of their readers that were contemplating leaving the kingdom in the last few years, indeed actually did so.  I consider a system this complicated (compared to the top 15 retiree spots all over the world) as an invitation to leave.  

[SooKee]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I gather, you're talking about how the most recent transfer was listed on your bank statement.  Out of curiosity, how was that latest transaction coded in your recipient Thai bank book, as that's presumably what Immigration is going to be looking at first and predominantly?

 

Yes it was only the last and most recent transfer that had the new descriptor and transaction code.  Before that 'Dummy Branch' on every one.  As to the bank book, TBH I've no idea.  I rarely use the book and once in a while take it into bank to get updated.  Like 2-3 times in the last few years.  On those occasions I think they have a CBA (can't be asked) switch that they flip and all that gets printed in the book is total year deposits, total year withdrawals (as in two lines) with a closing balance.  Guess I'll have to be more methodical about getting it updated now, at least on a monthly basis following the deposit dates.  I'll take it in in a few days and see what shows though I suspect they'll hit the CBA switch this time as it's been a year or more.  

 

Just thankful I get my extension at the end of the month then have another year for the confusion to hopefully tease out.  Seeing what will be accepted as bank evidence is potentially more urgent given that you need to decide what route, depending on bank records will show for the variety of transfer types, you will use over the year to get your audit trail.

[Sheryl]

26 minutes ago, SooKee said:

Would I be correct in assuming that your transfers go from one account that you or someone holds outside Thailand to your account in Thailand?  In that case I can see the credit advice providing all the detail the bank needs as the before the money hits your account there is only one other bank involved, the originating bank outside Thailand.

 

With Transferwise (though I'd really be happy to be wrong) their business model creates a snag.  If I send money to Thailand using TW, I pay the money to TW from my account, TW send it from their bank to BKK bank in Thailand THEN BKK bank send it to my Kasikorn account.  That is where I see the potential problem with the credit advice.  I can see it just saying originating bank BKK Bank, Thailand (e.g. the bank that as far as Kasikorn are concerned sent them the money), receiving bank, Kasikorn.  It's the UK bank, to another UK bank, to BKK Thailand to Kasikorn route, with only the latter two likely to feature in the Kasikorn.  The money arriving from the UK to BKK bank would I suspect technically be none of Kasikorn's business (or concern) and thus, highly likely to appear in a Kasikorn audit trail.  As I said, I'll ask for one in respect of my latest transfer, see what it says.

 

I really do hope that banking regulations require banks to have access to the whole audit trail of incoming funds and if TI has been in discussion with the banks that MIGHT be why Kasikorn has started using it's new descriptor that might allow such transfers to be readily identified.

Yes, these have been bank to bank transfers, I don't know what a TW credit advice would look like. However mine do involve intermediate banks and the Credit Advice showed that whole chain.

 

Maybe get the CA for your last transfer and see.

[Sheryl]

28 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Just a further comment on people that have their social security payments direct deposited into a Thai bank.  Many people still have financial interests in the USA or have USA bills to pay or other reasons to have to make payments in the USA, perhaps they subscribe to services or things, or have any of a thousand reasons why they need money in the USA.  Transferring all of their social security payments into a Thai bank account would make paying things in the USA with those monies just another challenge.  Now, given that few people have social security payments totaling 2,000 USD a month which is about the 65K baht retirement income level, it makes one wonder how the typical social security receiver is meeting the minimum 65K income requirement?  Of course they could have other income sources, pensions, military, investment etc.  But at first glance it looks dicey as to how many income affidavits were really accurate and truthful

Most people would indeed have to have more than just SS, but the US model of retirement is that they should. SS is not designed or expected to fully finance costs of living in retirement. Hence IRAs, Keogh and Roth plans and the like for those not covered by an employer pension system.

 

As for the need to pay some things in US, answer will be (1) shift payments to Thailand where possible (e.g. get a Thai credit card if you having been using a US one etc) and (2) do monthly transfer back to the US as needed via Dee Money or similar.

[SooKee]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

Codes for international transfers by Kasikorn  (marked in yellow)

KK codes.pdf

Nice find and good info!  Just checked back at Kasikorn and found that my last transfer into LOS using Transferwise now clearly shows the code TFN05027 (International Transaction).  So maybe it is the banks getting their act together for TI regulations.  Below is a sectional screenshot from the online statement:

 

 

If all other transactions show the same and if other banks (other than BKK Bank which WRT Transferwise is not a problem anyway) follow suit, maybe the Transferwise dilemma will not be a problem.

Edited January 5, 2019 by SooKee

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

But at first glance it looks dicey as to how many income affidavits were really accurate and truthful

 

The amount of an American's monthly Social Security benefit has nothing automatically to do with whether or not they can meet the monthly income requirements for marriage or retirement extensions. Because, as should be obvious, there are all kinds of other sources of monthly income that expats here can have apart from Social Security.

 

Unfortunately, from what I read, it's true that a lot of retired or soon to be retired Americans ONLY have their SS as a retirement income source, given the phasing out of guaranteed benefit pensions in past years. But as for the Thailand expats population, I'm sure there's a large portion, including myself, who have multiple legit sources of monthly income apart from SS.

 

[TonyClifton]

This topic is annoying me.  Has no one read the Affidavit?  It says, and I shall quote mine:

 

"I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $_________________ from sources in the United States.  

 

There is nothing there about retirement income or social security income.  It can be any type of income.  If I clip coupons on municipal bonds once a year and divide it by 12 months, then it's still an accurate statement.

 

[david555]

24 minutes ago, SooKee said:

Nice find and good info!  Just checked back at Kasikorn and found that my last transfer into LOS using Transferwise now clearly shows the code TFN05027 (International Transaction).  So maybe it is the banks getting their act together for TI regulations.  Below is a sectional screenshot from the online statement:

 

Many years already that code on KK statements

Edited January 5, 2019 by david555

[DogNo1]

It seems as though I guessed wrong that immigration would continue to accept any reasonable proof of retirement income.  It is apparent that the only acceptable proof being monthly deposits to or a lump sum in a Thai bank will be hugely profitable for Thai Banks.

 

Since I didn't get a US Embassy affidavit and I don't have 800,000 baht available to deposit in a Thai bank right now, one option is to start a 65,000 baht monthly transfer to my Bangkok bank account immediately.  Assuming that the total of 780,000 baht and transfer fees will cost me about $26,000 per year, using an agent seems more attractive since my loss of income on the $26,000 would be about $1,300.  (In various ways, I make about 5% on my money.)  An agent fee of 15,000 to 21,000 would be cheap in comparison and I would be able to avoid having to distribute the money in my Thai bank account to pay various bills.  I now pay for everything with my American credit card and get a 1% rebate on what I spend.

 

People have theorized about why Thai Immigration has taken this step but, if you follow the money, the Thai banks and agents are the big beneficiaries.

[SooKee]

20 minutes ago, david555 said:

Many years already that code 

Yeah, but the final transaction I did last year was the first and only time for me that Kasikorn have ever used the TFN05027 (international transaction) code to describe a Transferwise deposit in two years or so of using them.  Before they were only ever described as 'Dummy Branch' under 'Service Channel' and all had a transaction code of MCL07206 which doesn't feature on the Kasikorn list, the closest being another MCL code designating 'SMART Transfer'.  

 

Maybe Kasikorn have decided to, or been told to, be more thorough with the audit trail of incoming funds where the source is international and make sure it's readily identifiable.  Whether that's as a result of TI input I guess we'll never know.  Either way, hopefully it's something I can cross of the problem list and saves having to open yet another account here at BKK Bank.

Edited January 5, 2019 by SooKee

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, balo said:

So much fuzz about nothing. 

 

All the agents I have talked to the last 2 months have confirmed they will still offer 800k in/out in 2019 . 

15k fee and everything will be taken care of. Some people are too scared to use them but this is official stamp business as normal . 

Nothing to worry about. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well would you expect them to say otherwise?

If one day it is highlighted, that this bypassing of the requirements was facilitated by an illegal payment, above and beyond the standard 1900 baht, do you believe any repercussion will be limited to a few IO (moved to inactive posts) and the agents (friends in high places)? There will be a long list of those customers who were complicit in their hands, looking like abundant fruit trees ripe for picking.

It might never happen, so why worry?

Edited January 5, 2019 by jacko45k

[JLCrab]

Well from the "What about me?" and "Non-agent-centric view of the universe" departments, I just made my 3rd 65K+ baht FTT monthly deposit as shown in the passbook into Bangkok Bank .

 

I know at least one on here has postulated that the new monthly income extension-of-stay regime is intended to be so difficult that persons will be forced to use agents (thus the agent-centric view of the universe) but it doesn't seem that an 'FTT' next to your "not less than" 65K baht monthly deposit in your passbook can get much easier.

[KhunFred]

On 1/5/2019 at 12:33 AM, davhend25 said:

I'm with this guy....I'll gladly finish my retirement in the good old US of A. I'm not direct depositing any of my retirement income into a "Thai Bank."  Especially given that I would have to beg them to let me open an account...bye bye LOS!!! 

Opening the account with Bangkok Bank was fairly straightforward, but subsequent attempts to open another account at other banks were a circus. I never dreamed that banks would turn down money. This just shows how onerous the FATCA paperwork must be to Thai banks. Only Bangkok Bank could be blackmailed into this arrangement, because they have a presence in NYC as a wholesale bank.