Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

A better result than most Brexiteers, so well done.

 

He’s the “Rainman” of the Leave vote.

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, baboon said:

Yeah, the Article 50 period has only proven bloody awful so far. Brought to the UK by the same fractured political party who will lead us to a golden dawn. They can't even agree to the way we exit the EU, but you trust them on how the country is rebuilt post-Brexit (probably minus Scotland)?

 

No, I can't state for sure that a no deal exit will be terrible for the UK, but the balance of probability is way against it. I for one do not want to take that gamble.

Yes it is clear that we have already lost a lot of business, I have seen it again and again in different newspapers. Then future planning decisions have been made to shift business away from UK also. The amount that we pay into the EU is less than the damage ALREADY done to the value of our top companies  - see quote. Why would anyone with a basic understanding of economics want to focus on what we put in without taking account of what we get out - some 3% of GDP apparently - which dwarfs our contribution. 

 

What puzzles me about the English that so many of them look up to an establishment, that is busy shafting them on a regular basis. Blind worship of a dysfunctional Royal Family, the ritual doffing of caps to vile toffs like JR Mogg, and uncritical admiration of the mega rich, looks like Stockholm syndrome writ large. Are we serfs to dance to these people's tunes? 

It is not freedom from the EU we need to worry about, it is freedom from the control of the twisted bunch that actually rule our lives within the UK already. They want you to believe that your problems all about the EU or Immigrants.  BTW we are all immigrants, there was no one here 10,000 years ago.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Nigel Garvie
punctuation

[KhaoYai]

I don't think this poll is anything new. If everyone that wanted to remain in the EU had voted I don't think we'd be having this discussion.  The fact is that for a variety of reasons, many didn't vote.

[keemapoot]

5 hours ago, nontabury said:

How do you know, that a no deal exit would be terrible for the U.K.

The truth Is you Don’t know, unless your prepared to follow the wisdom of Cameron, George Osbourne, Nick Clegg, Mark Charney, Christine Lagarde, who all predicted that catastrophe would immediately follow if we were to foolishly Democratically vote to leave this so called union.

Much better to actually leave, and then if there are enough people unhappy, after say 20yrs, they could form their own party, with the intention of re-shackling our nation to the whims of the Bureaucrats in Brussels.

My argument is economic for the UK. I do have sympathy for the social arguments made by others in this thread. But, without economic prosperity, the rest doesn't count for much, and you don't have to worry about immigrants taking jobs if there are no jobs to take. My views are informed by a lifetime of involvement in global trade. I know how global supply chains are formed. I know how companies make decisions about where to buy and sell things long term based on costs, tariffs, FTAs (free trade agreements), common markets, and especially the massive clout of being part of the EU, as a negotiating trade bloc.

The EU is the world's largest and most powerful trading bloc. And, like it or not, this trend toward isolationism that we have seen in both the UK and US, as exhibited by Brexit, as well as the Trump administration pulling out of TPP trade bloc, ceding control to China with RCEP, starting trade war with China, etc., results in exiting large trade blocs and becoming less desirable and competitive on the world markets. The US and UK are not comparable in this regard however, because the US is the largest single country market for good and services worldwide, so carries tremendous clout on its own merits that the UK doesn't have. It is nonsense to think the UK can negotiate by itself with countries (and more importantly cause global MNCs to shift supply chains) to an extent that keeps the level of prosperity enjoyed under being in the EU.

 

So, the UK, by going forward with Brexit, is seriously making itself less attractive to global buyers and sellers, and relegating itself to a 2nd class position. None of the other economies the size of the UK rely on unilateral negotiations on trade. What makes you think the UK can get away with it in a globalised world?

 

A Hard Brexit would be a long hard fall on hard times for the UK, and May's deal is severely flawed. To me the answer is clear as others have advanced in this thread: a new referendum with two choices: take May's deal and get out, or remain. 

[yogi100]

14 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Come on, Brexiteers don’t even understand what WTO rules mean, so much that they even reply with completely irrelevant off-topic taken from dubious weblogs that look like my little nephew has created it in Microsoft Frontpage (see user evadgib).

 

If you're so bright and Brexiteers are so dense that they don't understand what the WTO rules mean why don't you enlighten them by spending a few minutes of your time writing a couple of paragraphs informing them what these rules do actually mean and how said rules will affect us in the future.

[yogi100]

12 hours ago, Spidey said:

May's deal is terrible. No deal is worse. That's why we need another vote.

 

If you don't think that the economy is going to suffer with no deal, just look what's happening now with the threat of no deal.

 

Thinking that "it'll be alright on the night" is, as I said, pure madness. Ask anyone who understands something about the economy. 40 baht/£ ? Say goodbye to the halcyon days of the exchange rate.

 

 

 

The UK's economy was not that clever long before June 2016.

 

Why are you so concerned about getting 40 baht for your GBP. The Brexit issue is a lot more far reaching and involved than how much visitors to and expats living in the LOS get to spend on booze and women.

 

Wait till you get 32 B for your quid like we did in 1984 under Maggie Thatcher's govt then worry.

 

But we'll still be leaving the EU if we can still expect to trust our leaders.

[steve187]

10 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

first referendum voted to join in!

the first referendum was to stay in, stay in a common market, not a greater Europe ruled by Germany

[yogi100]

10 hours ago, Loiner said:

Exactly why we must Leave now! Jobs are for the native population, not for imported zero hour wage slaves.

While Remain loving business owners have enjoyed the cheap labour of Eastern and Southern Europe, local workers have either not been able to get jobs or have been ground down to the same pay levels. The ones who can't get a job resort to benefits. Why should the UK taxpayer be supporting locals on the dole, while the EU nationals are leaving their own stricken countries economies to undercut ours? Even from a purely capitalist view point, that principle is not acceptable.

 They are not just resorting to benefits. I live in London where acid attacks, stabbings, robbery, smash and grabbing, muggings and crime in general is at an all time high. It's the crime capital of Europe.

 

Why are these young criminals not working like previous generations did. There are no jobs for young working class Londoners because they get snapped up by foreign immigrants that's why.

 

Anyone with an EU passport can go wherever he wants and work for whatever someone wants to pay him and if he can't get a job he gets the same hand outs as any one who is born in Britain and has paid into the pot since they left school.

 

Our youngsters no longer know what a work ethic is and is one of the reasons the UK is commonly referred to as Broken Britain. Our politicians have engineered this state of affairs so their businessmen pals can get bigger profits. More people = more workers = smaller wages = more profit.

[yogi100]

10 hours ago, Loiner said:

Dodgy Dave, Remainer MPs, Economists, Academics, Elitists, EU themselves, and every other rider on the EU gravy train threw all they had at it. Because the had invested so much effort in their ProEU campaign and Project Fear, they believed their own polls and thought they had it in the bag. That's why they are in the mire now, they didn't prepare for a Brexit, because they were confident Remain would win.

Fortunately more of the UK public can see through the bull than those who couldn't. Hence Brexit - no deal, no more delay.

Good post. Bang on the nail.

[JonnyF]

13 hours ago, Spidey said:

May's deal is terrible. No deal is worse. That's why we need another vote.

 

If you don't think that the economy is going to suffer with no deal, just look what's happening now with the threat of no deal.

 

Thinking that "it'll be alright on the night" is, as I said, pure madness. Ask anyone who understands something about the economy. 40 baht/£ ? Say goodbye to the halcyon days of the exchange rate.

 

 

Seems you're upset about the exchange rate. A weak pound has benefits as well as drawbacks. For example, you may bring money into Thailand so it's bad for you. I send money out of Thailand so it's good for me. The same applies to imports and exports. The UK is a very attractive place for foreigners to invest with the pound so weak, you get a lot for your dollars, Yuen etc.

 

What exactly is happening now that's so bad? Everything seems fine "Despite" Brexit. Remember all the doom merchants saying we'd lose 500,000 jobs just on a vote to leave? Not leaving, just a vote to leave. Emergency budget? GDP 3.6% lower etc. Never happened, the UK is doing well and will do even better once the uncertainty is over and we leave on WTO terms.

 

Project Fear failed before the vote and hopefully will fail again before we leave.

 

 

 

 

[kannot]

and  6  months  after  this new  vote  would  want  another  to  get  out  again

[yogi100]

9 hours ago, AlexRich said:

It’s a fact that those who voted Brexit were generally lower on educational attainment. 

They may not have attended 'uni' but had much more experience of real life and having to earn a living.

 

It's common knowledge and a well known fact that those with higher levels of education have attained those levels at the price of common sense.

[yogi100]

9 hours ago, AlexRich said:

It’s well documented that in general leavers are in the lower level of educational achievement. Can a fact be condescending? The Brexit campaign was a con job, targeting old people and the working classes over immigration ... something none of those campaigning for leave could give a fig about. They are all about low tax, low regulation, small government and privatisation ... something seldom mentioned on the campaign trail. Posh boys conning a vote out of dunderheads. And not for the first time.

 

Are you implying that working men who saw their livelihoods threated by eastern European scab labour needed a 'posh boy' to tell them about it.

 

Any 'dunderhead' knows that given the chance their employers will take on the fellow who will work for the least money. It's a situation that's as old as the hills.

[yogi100]

9 hours ago, baansgr said:

I fully understand and regarding 700,000 when really 250,000 how could the poll be anything other than dubious. Bet they stood outside Oxfam shops and only asked bearded one legged lesbian non caucasians

 

You might be having a crack but pollsters often do exactly that sort of thing. Even if they do actually have a poll and interview real people they'll restrict their polling to public sector workers in government departments, among the staff at the BBC or among the members of trade unions knowing in advance what the general response will be. 

 

You will never, ever see a poll being conducted in your local pub where Joe Bloggs gets to have his say.

[melvinmelvin]

Yesterday's Telegraph

has a snippet about UK and EU unofficially discussing possibilities re prolonging the A50 period.

 

 

[yogi100]

8 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

The one with a margin so tiny one still has to ask the question how democratic it really was. Such a profound decision IMHO should have a much greater margin than the one held two years ago. 

 

Why are you afraid of another referendum ? 

 

 

It was an overwhelming majority of over half a million people. If there's another RFDM we'll increase that leave majority to over one million.

[sungod]

10 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Just stating the facts. Not my fault you failed your 11 plus.

 

You are so far up yourself its unbelievable.

[yogi100]

11 hours ago, Loiner said:

There aren't 1 million Brits employed in the EU. About 800,000 of those are retirees in Spain - you know the ones who take their UK savings and pensions to spend it there. Another nice little earner for Spain in particular, which has helped the local economy throught the winters thankyou. (Very much like the expats here.)
The idea of free movement for UK nationals is a fallacy, hardly any of them can get a job in the EU. It's another of the false promises the youth have been sold by the Remainers.

 

Just take a look around British towns and cities and you'll see our young unemployed youth loitering about while foreign scabs are doing the jobs our people have traditionally worked at for donkeys' years.

 

And as we all know young men with time on their hands invariably get up to no good. This free movement of labour is turning the UK into a social disaster zone particularly in our urban areas. Just so employers can access cheap labour.

[whatsupdoc]

48 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

It's common knowledge and a well known fact that those with higher levels of education have attained those levels at the price of common sense.

Then you will have no problem with proving this???

 

I do not believe a word of it. Absolute nonsense (but it does explain why some Brexiteers think they have had enough and no need of experts....)

[keemapoot]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Then you will have no problem with proving this???

 

I do not believe a word of it. Absolute nonsense (but it does explain why some Brexiteers think they have had enough and no need of experts....)

Unfortunately, this is the same demographic type profile that got Trump elected, and allows his unsubstantiated, lack of intellectual rigour approach to gain widespread appeal. It provides easy solutions to complex problems that appeal to emotional arguments, ethnocentrism, and isolationism.

[alant]

18 hours ago, Benroon said:

decision over to racists

I seriously abject to being called a racist, who the hell do you thin you are to judge people you have never met.

The erosion of the pound is certainly linked to the fact that in the EU the UK has traded at a loss, we spent more than we earned. Try doing that whilst living in Thailand and see just how far it gets you. The difference is a country can print money if it has its own currency and that leads to devaluation of the currency. If they don't have their own currency they end up like Greece, but I suppose you support the hardships there as well.

If the future is now, as you say, then I remind you now is in the EU.

[alant]

18 hours ago, Justin Side said:

I don't think anyone would disagree with that observation.

I do, I resent strongly being refereed to as a racist. Amazed it is allowed by those that monitor posts.

[sungod]

1 minute ago, alant said:

I do, I resent strongly being refereed to as a racist. Amazed it is allowed by those that monitor posts.

Agreed, I'd equate it to those condescending posters on here who feel they are intellectually superior to everyone else.

[bushdoctor]

A poll is not a vote. The vote already happened. It was for Brexit. 

[yogi100]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Seems you're upset about the exchange rate. A weak pound has benefits as well as drawbacks. For example, you may bring money into Thailand so it's bad for you. I send money out of Thailand so it's good for me. The same applies to imports and exports. The UK is a very attractive place for foreigners to invest with the pound so weak, you get a lot for your dollars, Yuen etc.

 

What exactly is happening now that's so bad? Everything seems fine "Despite" Brexit. Remember all the doom merchants saying we'd lose 500,000 jobs just on a vote to leave? Not leaving, just a vote to leave. Emergency budget? GDP 3.6% lower etc. Never happened, the UK is doing well and will do even better once the uncertainty is over and we leave on WTO terms.

 

Project Fear failed before the vote and hopefully will fail again before we leave.

 

 

 

 

The unemployment figures can be deceptive with many on minimum hours employment schemes and many in their late teens and twenties registered as 'students'.

 

Look at the economically inactive figures for those of working age as well. There are over 8.5 million of them.

 

Our manufacturing base has been drastically reduced in the few decades we've been in the various versions of the EU. More people are now employed in the public sector of the UK than in our manufacturing industries.

[vinny41]

39 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

Just take a look around British towns and cities and you'll see our young unemployed youth loitering about while foreign scabs are doing the jobs our people have traditionally worked at for donkeys' years.

 

And as we all know young men with time on their hands invariably get up to no good. This free movement of labour is turning the UK into a social disaster zone particularly in our urban areas. Just so employers can access cheap labour.

Unemployed told to leave Ireland in desperate move to slash welfare costs

Ireland is asking its citizens to leave the country if they can't find a job in a desperate bid to slash welfare costs.

The Irish government has sent letters to approximately 6,000 unemployed people suggesting they should take jobs in other European countries in an effort to reduce unemployment benefits, the Financial Times has reported.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/unemployed-told-to-leave-ireland-in-desperate-move-to-slash-welfare-costs-9002720.html

[HAKAPALITA]

Polls are confusin in England and most EU countries, your not polling the Nationals who should have the say, but millions of immigrant Passport Holders voting for the best handouts.

[yogi100]

39 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Then you will have no problem with proving this???

 

I do not believe a word of it. Absolute nonsense (but it does explain why some Brexiteers think they have had enough and no need of experts....)

You disprove it.

 

Take a university wallah and see how he gets on working on a building site or a job that requires practicality and see for yourself.

 

You'll give him a shovel or a wheel barrow and he'll spend the next twenty minutes looking for the starter button!

[Grouse]

This what we are reduced to

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/anna-soubry-nazi-jeers-outside-parliament

 

What scum

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

You disprove it.

 

Take a university wallah and see how he gets on working on a building site or a job that requires practicality and see for yourself.

 

You'll give him a shovel or a wheel barrow and he'll spend the next twenty minutes looking for the starter button!

Why? We pay others to do those jobs. The people who do such work compete on price, subject to a minimum wage. You want more? Learn a skill? Join a Union.