Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

[vogie]

Carrying on the Welsh theme, here is the Cardiff City manager giving his very eloquent opinion.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by vogie

[evadgib]

14 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Well, that's clearly your interpretation.

 

1st referendum was voted on by an ill informed public. 2nd referendum will be voted on by a much better informed public. 

 

Democracy in action.

 

Your fear of a 2nd referendum is clearly based on the fact that this time the public will vote with their heads rather than an irrational xenophobia, buried deep in their hearts by the right wing press.

What fear & xenophobia? a 2nd referendum would be won by an avalanche (but there won't be one) & the only foreigners that aren't welcome are those that turn up unannounced!

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, GarryP said:

So now that the US electorate is better informed about muggins and what it means to have him as POTUS, they should hold a new election now? It doesn't work like that does it? 

Does the US constitution allow that?

Does the UK constitution on the other hand allow it?

 

- - -

 

Apart from poll results and personal preferences, what do people think is likely to happen? Given that May’s deal will unlikely make it, and that parliament is equally scared of voting for no-deal as for a revoking A50, I think it’s likely that we will see a second referendum. That would probably also be the requirement for an extension of A50, making it more likely. Only in the case of a new government the situation might look different, and the EU27 might agree to an extension of A50 so that the UK can hold a GE. 

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

What you seem to fail to understand is that by overturning a democratic decision is far from being democratic, democracy doesn't always mean getting it all your own way.

Using a democratic vote to overturn a previous democratic vote is not democratic?

 

And you say I fail to understand.

 

 

Doh!

 

[evadgib]

9 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

The poll/referendum for the creation of the Welsh Assembly was in favour by just 0.3%...but of course, nobody questions the legitimacy of that vote or demanded a second go at the outcome. 

An MP made that very point during PMQs just before Christmas.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

What fear & xenophobia? a 2nd referendum would be won by an avalanche (but there won't be one) & the only foreigners that aren't welcome are those that turn up unannounced!

Who aren't EU citizens. Leaving the EU would do nothing to stem that flow, in fact it might make things worse as there's a train of thought that we would receive even less cooperation from the other side of Le Manche.

[melvinmelvin]

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

[evadgib]

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Using a democratic vote to overturn a previous democratic vote is not democratic?

 

And you say I fail to understand.

 

 

Doh!

 

Not without that insignificant little bit in the middle, like a term in office (5 years) or the generation or two that usually separates polarizing decisions in UK.

Edited January 14, 2019 by evadgib

[welovesundaysatspace]

14 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

As the far-right parties in other countries, they have gained some momentum through the recent rise of xenophobia and populism in Europe. While that is sad, they will unlikely be able to achieve more than being a loud minority. While they have seats in the German Bundestag, they cannot block any or create much damage. Germany is a quite tolerant, open-minded and liberal democracy; they clearly learned from their past. The AfD, despite trying to use some scapegoats to get rid of their image, are widely understood as a neonazi-party, and thus isolated. They can put in their manifesto whatever they want with regard to the EU, and they have already toned it down recently. 

[evadgib]

Edited January 14, 2019 by evadgib

[Moo 2]

Thanks to Boris the Clown and his acolytes, the Referendum had a total lack of information about

problems the UK would encounter by living the EU. Most voters were semi-retired or retired and could

not give a damn about next generations they will be living behind.

With information the public has today, a second Referendum would be a different story, I am guessing

68 per cent for staying. Ladies and Gentlemen start betting!

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

I  gather that Guardian and others have started to waffle about UK and EFTA again,

hmmmm

 

guess first stage would be to see if may-deal flies or not,

starting tomorrow and with a fair heap of amendments it will likely take some days

to get the proposal sorted, one way or other

should be concluded before the end of the week I assume

 

if may-deal fails then you have quite a menu;

 

non conf in gov

GE

just TM replacement

revoke A50

2nd referendum

prolong A50, hoping for whatever

go Canada

go Switzerland

go EFTA

 

wow, endless sources of entertainment,

UK rags will be busy indeed, the paper mills in Finland will make fortunes

 

[Berkshire]

18 minutes ago, Moo 2 said:

Thanks to Boris the Clown and his acolytes, the Referendum had a total lack of information about

problems the UK would encounter by living the EU. Most voters were semi-retired or retired and could

not give a damn about next generations they will be living behind.

With information the public has today, a second Referendum would be a different story, I am guessing

68 per cent for staying. Ladies and Gentlemen start betting!

 

This is the impression I get as an outsider.  It would seem that the question should never have gone to referendum.  It's simply too complicated an issue with huge national implications.  It would be very easy to sugar-coat all the "benefits" without clearly explaining the much more complex consequences of leaving.  It would be the same if a referendum was conducted in California or Texas to leave the USA.  Staying would be maintaining the status quo (with all its problems; basically doing nothing to improve things) while leaving can be explained as being proactive with countless benefits.  Most people would be for improving things, if that's all they hear about.  And some voters may just decide to make a political statement to leave, not knowing the implications.  Cameron did a grave disservice to the people of Britain.

 

[The bedrock principle of representative government is that "the people" do not decide issues, they decide who shall decide. And once a legislature sloughs off responsibility and resorts to a referendum on the dubious premise that the simple way to find out what people want is to ask them, it is difficult to avoid recurring episodes of plebiscitary democracy.]

 

https://www.effinghamdailynews.com/opinion/columns/brexit-shows-how-direct-democracy-can-be-dangerous/article_c6261b18-7367-59af-9f86-41b468163deb.html

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Obstinate? Moi?

 

I am NOT obstinate!

Nor pretentious. Innit?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

 

Where they stand ahead of the vote

Telegraph: no deal
The Sun: no deal
Spectator: no deal
Daily Mail: May’s deal
Mail on Sunday: May’s deal 
Times: May’s deal
FT: May’s deal 
Express: May’s deal
Guido: May’s deal 
Mirror: election
Guardian: second ref 
Indy: second ref

What does Noel Edmonds say?

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Not without that insignificant little bit in the middle, like a term in office (5 years) or the generation or two that usually separates polarizing decisions in UK.

We've had general elections, in the past, that have been held within months of each other. Governments rarely serve the full 5 year term. Was the last election held 5 years after the previous one? No, May thought that the will of the people had changed and she would call a snap election to increase her majority. Silly moo.

 

It's been more than 2 years since the last referendum. Enough time for people to change their minds, particularly considering that facts have changed. We now have an entirely different Brexit to the one that was painted for us before the pervious referendum.

 

Sorry, die hard Brexiteers but it's time for another referendum and for the will of the people to be heard.

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Last Saturday an interesting article in Bangkok Post.

 

The German far-right party is debating during their party congress whether DEXIT

should be put on their political manifesto.

 

dunno what kind of support the party enjoys

but with their negative perspective on Muslims and keenness on immigration control

I'd guess they sell quite well in German, pt at least

there are several Brexit elements in their stance

 

read and enjoy - you are not alone

 

Melvin loses four points for repetition!

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

We've had general elections, in the past, that have been held within months of each other. Governments rarely serve the full 5 year term. Was the last election held 5 years after the previous one? No, May thought that the will of the people had changed and she would call a snap election to increase her majority. Silly moo.

 

It's been more than 2 years since the last referendum. Enough time for people to change their minds, particularly considering that facts have changed. We now have an entirely different Brexit to the one that was painted for us before the pervious referendum.

 

Sorry, die hard Brexiteers but it's time for another referendum and for the will of the people to be heard.

 

And it was 41 years between the other two and by 2016 people had changed their minds.

So the next referendum is fairly due in 2057. Everyone should be happy with that. I am.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

As the far-right parties in other countries, they have gained some momentum through the recent rise of xenophobia and populism in Europe. While that is sad, they will unlikely be able to achieve more than being a loud minority. While they have seats in the German Bundestag, they cannot block any or create much damage. Germany is a quite tolerant, open-minded and liberal democracy; they clearly learned from their past. The AfD, despite trying to use some scapegoats to get rid of their image, are widely understood as a neonazi-party, and thus isolated. They can put in their manifesto whatever they want with regard to the EU, and they have already toned it down recently. 

A loud minority? You mean like the remoaners?

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I  gather that Guardian and others have started to waffle about UK and EFTA again,

hmmmm

 

guess first stage would be to see if may-deal flies or not,

starting tomorrow and with a fair heap of amendments it will likely take some days

to get the proposal sorted, one way or other

should be concluded before the end of the week I assume

 

if may-deal fails then you have quite a menu;

 

non conf in gov

GE

just TM replacement

revoke A50

2nd referendum

prolong A50, hoping for whatever

go Canada

go Switzerland

go EFTA

 

wow, endless sources of entertainment,

UK rags will be busy indeed, the paper mills in Finland will make fortunes

 

If you have already revoked it you can't extend it, innit? Go go!

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Melvin loses four points for repetition!

yes,

sorry about that and sorry to the mods - feel free to ditch the surplus

 

dunno what happens

I press SUBMIT wait wait wait the button comes up again nothing happens and I press again ... repeat

 

 

tvf incredible slow this morning,

dunno, maybe my internet connection - maybe tvf software - maybe tvf machine

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

And it was 41 years between the other two and by 2016 people had changed their minds.

So the next referendum is fairly due in 2057. Everyone should be happy with that. I am.

So all elections have a fixed length? No, if you can hold a general election months apart, you can hold a referendum almost 3 years apart. Unless you are frightened of getting the "wrong" result, of course.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you have already revoked it you can't extend it, innit? Go go!

But you can re-enact it.

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you have already revoked it you can't extend it, innit? Go go!

of course not,

the list was supposed to be part of parliament's menu of alternatives to discuss

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

This is the impression I get as an outsider.  It would seem that the question should never have gone to referendum.  It's simply too complicated an issue with huge national implications.  It would be very easy to sugar-coat all the "benefits" without clearly explaining the much more complex consequences of leaving.  It would be the same if a referendum was conducted in California or Texas to leave the USA.  Staying would be maintaining the status quo (with all its problems; basically doing nothing to improve things) while leaving can be explained as being proactive with countless benefits.  Most people would be for improving things, if that's all they hear about.  And some voters may just decide to make a political statement to leave, not knowing the implications.  Cameron did a grave disservice to the people of Britain.

 

[The bedrock principle of representative government is that "the people" do not decide issues, they decide who shall decide. And once a legislature sloughs off responsibility and resorts to a referendum on the dubious premise that the simple way to find out what people want is to ask them, it is difficult to avoid recurring episodes of plebiscitary democracy.]

 

https://www.effinghamdailynews.com/opinion/columns/brexit-shows-how-direct-democracy-can-be-dangerous/article_c6261b18-7367-59af-9f86-41b468163deb.html

 

The comparison with the USA and its states is not a good one and I hope it never will be.

 

The recent poor performance of our elected representatives shows that the people must have a direct say in important issues like Brexit - the result of the referendum proves that - there is a new and big issue of mistrust by the British of their own Parliament now.    

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yes,

sorry about that and sorry to the mods - feel free to ditch the surplus

 

dunno what happens

I press SUBMIT wait wait wait the button comes up again nothing happens and I press again ... repeat

 

 

tvf incredible slow this morning,

dunno, maybe my internet connection - maybe tvf software - maybe tvf machine

Just kidding. Did you ever listen to "Just a Minute"?

 

I know the submit function gets sticky sometimes. A bit like Brexit!