Am in the reflective mood today, hence my intervention at the top of this thread.

 

(This withdrawal deal is a frightening example of multilateral talks going astray and failing.

 have spent some time reflecting over why, have some views, will save 'em for later)

 

Now,

looking back at the time since A50 was triggered, and a bit before it was triggered.

To me fairly few persons stand out as being in the forefront of what is happening

and at the same time showing knowledge and insight.

 

Over the past two years, there have been some very good interviews with very clear

experienced and insightful MPs and ministers from here and there in EU land.

(very recently a clear German MP)

 

To me there are only two persons standing out, Barnier and Farage.

 

Farage, has entertainment value. Has artistic streaks, might have a future as a stand-up comedian.

He is always available, to msm and others.

He is a talented speaker. Always present.

He knows EU in and out,

as a consequence, he intermittently offers some very very good points.

 

Barnier, impresses me.

Not so much because of the result of his work but the way in which he has gone about concluding the task.

Very very experienced with politics and EU and multilateralism.

Always available to msm and politicians and EU institutions.

Always on his toes. Traveling Europe frequently talking with heads of state/PMs and politicians.

Always alert and up to speed. He is not loudmouthed, very much to the point and reflective.

Whenever there is sign of vacuum/limbo he grabs the opportunity and fills it with his policies.

That man is very very good, quite simply.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Recently, in an interview in Davos,

Varadkar said that Ireland is prepared to put up a hard border against, NI,

should UK  leave no-deal.

 

(I would not be surprised at all if after that he got Brussels on his neck

 and was quite strictly told to keep mum.)

 

Barnier: time is too short to amend, deal is not open to renegotiations.

 

That the deal is not open to renegotiations, OK, a statement in line with the current EU policy.

To say that the time available for amending the deal is too short is just a lame excuse

supporting the EU's dislike for altering the deal.

 

The deal is a small and reasonably straight forward text, 500 pages is small.

In Brussels there is a large team of experienced Eurocrats intimately familiar with all aspects of this deal

In London likewise, civil servants who know this text in and out.

Together they have been dotting all the is and striking all the ts over the past few months.

1 month is more than ample time to alter this text.

 

Such is happening frequently in the UN system.

 

But it seems fairly clear that the political will to alter has now gone, if it ever was there.

 

 

 

You don't only need to alter a text, you need to make provisions to live by the text too. If there will be a hard border, they need people and infrastructure to sort this. That will take time, money and people.

1 hour ago, Enki said:

Every position in the EU is elected, or delegated by an elected committee. Perhaps you should read up how the EU works: surprisingly she works more or less exactly like any member country individually does ... but alas "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergeblich!"

Again as I said leaders. if I want to vote out Juncker or Tusk tell me how. If I want to vote out TM  or the conservatives, I get a vote to vote for another party or if I live in her constituency for or against her. 

 

That is not the same thing. This will help you.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?reference=EPRS_BRI(2018)630264

 

This is the plan for how it will put in place the EU president (coming soon)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-directly-elected-president-jean-claude-juncker-european-council-donald-tusk-poland-rule-of-law-a8210736.html

 

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

You have the opportunity to revert to essentially EEC2

 

Too blinded by ignorant hatred of the EU to understand that

 

I'm glad you enjoyed EuroDisney

 

At least your pal Vogie can present a rational argument.

OK answer these questions please.

 

You have admitted the EU isn't perfect on numerous occasions, so how will it reform as it refuses too?

 

The immigration policy of letting many and supposedly refugees from various countries has failed. How will they clean this mess up?

 

The EU and its refusal to publish/sign off its accounts. How can it been seen as a democratic, legitimate transparent organisation?

 

How can the EU project be seen to have worked when unemployment levels across Europe are so bad in some countries. How can those in Greece, Italy, Spain and France believe the EU and euro is good for them?

 

So you talk about a rational argument. I am putting one to you now.

What makes the EU so good?

 

This is worth a read in my opinion.

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/03/08/the-eus-current-problems-are-largely-of-its-own-making/

 

52 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Thanks for the Geography lesson it wasn't needed.

 

Again not on my bucket list. Same as the one in Florida or Shanghai.

Anaheim was the original and best. The rest are just Micky Mouse.

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Why? You hate the EU!

Read the Ops' submission, I would you like me to repeat it for you in block capitals?  But to save you time, please look up in the dictionary the words, BULLYING, DOMINANT and INFLEXIBLE.  Personally, I think this is a very suble attempt at a land grab on NI and EU, it will NOT work!

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Interesting to see watch the Sky News programme in Sunderland. The feeling has not changed and as a place that voted leave, the views on that programme seem stronger than ever.

 

I can see people are starting to see the EU as it really is. Bullying, dominant and inflexible.  The UK are resilient people and from anecdotal evidence from friends and programmes like these, the EU and its mannerism is creating anger and possibly hate towards it, from the UK.

 

If the EU think we with the way they are negotiating and the threats of punishing the UK will make the UK people say "we made a mistake", "let us back in". They are very much mistaken IMO.

 

I look forward to seeing the EU elections across Europe this year.

 

Living in Thailand, I've obviously no idea as to how most people in the uk are thinking nowadays - but hope that you're right.

 

The uk and eu govts' behaviour during the last couple of years has changed my attitude from 'on the fence' to - 'don't let them (i.e. uk and eu govts.) get away with subverting the referendum result, just leave'.

 

6 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

OK answer these questions please.

 

You have admitted the EU isn't perfect on numerous occasions, so how will it reform as it refuses too?

 

The immigration policy of letting many and supposedly refugees from various countries has failed. How will they clean this mess up?

 

The EU and its refusal to publish/sign off its accounts. How can it been seen as a democratic, legitimate transparent organisation?

 

How can the EU project be seen to have worked when unemployment levels across Europe are so bad in some countries. How can those in Greece, Italy, Spain and France believe the EU and euro is good for them?

 

So you talk about a rational argument. I am putting one to you now.

What makes the EU so good?

 

This is worth a read in my opinion.

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/03/08/the-eus-current-problems-are-largely-of-its-own-making/

 

Re. the part of your post that I've emboldened - EXACTLY!

 

After the referendum result I'd hoped that the eu would realise its mistakes and reform itself - providing a good reason for the uk populace to change their minds - as I posted at the time.

 

Instead, they've taken the opposite approach ????.

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Hate is a strong word. I do not like what the EU has morphed from the ECC. They did it by stealth too. I admit helped by UK politicians such Heath, Major and Blair. I don't like how the EU is unaccountable, hides it's finances and has become a protectionist outfit, whilst championing as been 'ultra democratic'. I feel the EU with its federalisatioin plans has prevented the UK from being able to feed itself with the agriculture or lack of it in the UK.

 

The fisheries policy is another issue. We have tried it, never really felt part of the EU. we have kept our own currency, thankfully. I believe that the EEC morphed into the now EU, grew to big with many countries, who I feel shouldn't be allowed in.

 

I like Germany of which I lived there I like France. I like all the European countries but not the organisation of the EU. it is too restrictive.

 

I am very surprised. The UK has been actively shaping the EU for over 40 years, as the EU is now. And got a lot of 

exceptions and special regulations, more than any other EU member.

Now suddenly everything is bad what you have build up over 40 years?

No assumption of responsibility.

That is weak. Very weak.

10 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I am very surprised. The UK has been actively shaping the EU for over 40 years, as the EU is now. And got a lot of 

exceptions and special regulations, more than any other EU member.

Now suddenly everything is bad what you have build up over 40 years?

No assumption of responsibility.

That is weak. Very weak.

There has been a call by many people to leave the EU for years. Luckily with advancements in technology and the internet people have a more informed choice to choose from.

 

I have never said it was suddenly bad. I think it has been bad for the UK for years. Losing the ability to feed ourselves is just one example.

 

The EEC was a decent concept but the subsequent evolving of the EU with many countries just not suited to the EEC standard has created the situation today. Also the EU's approach to federalising Europe has harmed it IMHO.

 

The EU knows if all countries were given a referendum then many would leave. Hardly a poster campaign for success.

 

So no the EU is not to blame for everything suddenly. The UK have tried its project and we don't want to anymore.

 

6 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...In essence, May will use the implicit threat of a 'no-deal' Brexit to seek a deal from the other 27 members of the EU, whose combined economy is about six times the size of Britain's.

But the European response has been united, and blunt..."

 

Not a surprise. What possible reason would the EU have to start handing out benefits to the UK now?

 

Sadly, the UK wasted about two years doing little or nothing, and now is faced with the prospect of staying in the EU or leaving without a controlled exit. And, even knowing that both alternatives are bad, the UK is unable to choose and/or properly implement either one.

 

What a ClusterF**k.

 

My apologies to all my British friends, but you brought this on yourselves. My fondest wish is that the consequences of your actions aren't too grave and that you recover swiftly.

 

 

Thank you for your genuine concern. Be reassured. Rumours of our death post-Brexit have been much exaggerated. As a war baby who lived through REAL austerity in the Forties and Fities, I know the indomitable character of the British people will enable them to survive and prosper once again as a sovereign, independent nation.

6 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...In essence, May will use the implicit threat of a 'no-deal' Brexit to seek a deal from the other 27 members of the EU, whose combined economy is about six times the size of Britain's.

But the European response has been united, and blunt..."

 

Not a surprise. What possible reason would the EU have to start handing out benefits to the UK now?

 

Sadly, the UK wasted about two years doing little or nothing, and now is faced with the prospect of staying in the EU or leaving without a controlled exit. And, even knowing that both alternatives are bad, the UK is unable to choose and/or properly implement either one.

 

What a ClusterF**k.

 

My apologies to all my British friends, but you brought this on yourselves. My fondest wish is that the consequences of your actions aren't too grave and that you recover swiftly.

 

 

 

Ridiculous saying that British people have bought it on themselves quite frankly. 48% of those who voted didn't; nor did the % who didn't vote. The 52% of those who voted, in what was described as an "advisory referendum" clearly wanted to leave the EU but had no idea what that would actually mean or involve. Nor more pointedly did they envisage the complete mess and amateur way a bunch of self interested hypocritical inept morons would try to implement that decision.

 

The lack of ability, responsibility and total disregard of actual British parliamentary procedure demonstrated by the current government, the opposition and most MP's and Lords is staggering. But it's somewhat patronizing and off the mark to suggest that "the British people" brought this on themselves.

 

Sad but we see similar in many countries at the moment. Elected governments and politicians being exposed for what they currently are.

7 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...In essence, May will use the implicit threat of a 'no-deal' Brexit to seek a deal from the other 27 members of the EU, whose combined economy is about six times the size of Britain's.

But the European response has been united, and blunt..."

 

Not a surprise. What possible reason would the EU have to start handing out benefits to the UK now?

 

Sadly, the UK wasted about two years doing little or nothing, and now is faced with the prospect of staying in the EU or leaving without a controlled exit. And, even knowing that both alternatives are bad, the UK is unable to choose and/or properly implement either one.

 

What a ClusterF**k.

 

My apologies to all my British friends, but you brought this on yourselves. My fondest wish is that the consequences of your actions aren't too grave and that you recover swiftly.

 

 

One reason among many is 39 Billion pounds

4 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Interesting to see watch the Sky News programme in Sunderland. The feeling has not changed and as a place that voted leave, the views on that programme seem stronger than ever.

 

I can see people are starting to see the EU as it really is. Bullying, dominant and inflexible.  The UK are resilient people and from anecdotal evidence from friends and programmes like these, the EU and its mannerism is creating anger and possibly hate towards it, from the UK.

 

If the EU think we with the way they are negotiating and the threats of punishing the UK will make the UK people say "we made a mistake", "let us back in". They are very much mistaken IMO.

 

I look forward to seeing the EU elections across Europe this year.

If it would not be so serious I would laugh about your comment. 

May and cronies were part of negotiations with EU. You forgot that. 

It is an agreement by both partners. EU and UK. 

Nothing to do with punishment. 

But to eat the cake and have it too..... Not with EU. 

 

It's not Barnier's decision. He is instructed by the EU Commission under Juncker who should follow the instructions of the EU Council of Leaders and the EU Parliament.

 

It seems the reality is Merkel, Macron call most shots. 

 

Barnier is right to point out that after 2 years no one has come up with a better solution. If someone has a better idea then they should table it.

 

May is utterly useless, clueless and has no more idea than the man in the moon. Corbyn probably worse than May. Ireland quite rightly seek guarantees and reassurances. They know how inept all the negotiators are and know they will be bullied by the EU to do what the EU says. 

 

They are at an impasse which no one wants to admit. The EU want the money - whether Britain stays or not they don't really care, but don't want a no deal no money scenario. May and Corbyn are too self interested to admit the reality of the situation and either deal with it in parliament or put it too the people again. They'd sooner re-arrange the life boats on the deck of the Titanic than admit the ship's sinking and take action!

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Bullying, dominant and inflexible.

When someone constantly wants (and gets) it her way; blackmails you with leaving shouldn’t she get it her way again; then demands a deal and threatens to breach her financial obligations shouldn’t she get the deal she demands — I am wondering who should be called  “bullying, dominant and inflexible”. 

 

You wanted to leave. Now don’t blame others for your own failure of not having that thought through and for not being able to stand on your own feet. It’s pathetic. 

 

4 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Great. Let us leave.

No one stops you to leave.

 

4 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Stop asking for our money.

That’s not how agreements work I’m afraid. 

 

 

Article 24. WTO - GATT is coming.  

It has been opined on this thread and surely on other threads that EU is totally inflexible.

Not sure I can agree with that.

 

 

(I can agree that the UK withdrawal deal is a horror example of talks going wrong, and ending up in the drain.)

 

If you bother to take a look at recent history and reality,

re CUs re SMs re TAX agreements re People movements

 

Look at EU and its true myriad of deals that they have with a LARGE number of geographical areas around the world

it is truly amazing

and the arrangements are tuned to the needs/wishes of the area

 

To me, this demonstrates great capacity for flexibility.

 

(am not really an EU fan, but some things they do right)

 

 

 

3 hours ago, vogie said:

What I have noticed is that yourself and Baerboxer, you seem to share the same thoughts of Parliamentary Democracy etc etc etc, but most importantly if anybody says anything derogative about the UK BB will defend it to the hilt. You seem to derive pleasure from insulting your country and your fellow countrymen..............but that is just an observation.????

 

I understand British Parliamentary Representative Democracy - and how it should work. Anyone interested  can join the UK Constitutional Law Association and read the expert debates on such. Especially on the attempts by the current government to undermine it and pretend things are different.

 

I do not intentionally insult people of any nationality as stereotyping is unfair, usually way off the mark and more reflective of bias than reality. Rather than insult my fellow countrymen and women, I insult the current crop of inept, self interested, hypocritical, untalented politicians that pack both Houses of Parliament and are not brave, clever, or honest enough to do the job they have sworn to do for which they are handsomely rewarded. 

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Again as I said leaders. if I want to vote out Juncker or Tusk tell me how. 

Tell me how Germans can vote out their president. 

8 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

Article 24. WTO - GATT is coming.  

Have you agreed your schedule with the other 130+ countries yet? Maybe it’s just one of those minor operational details that can be neglected for the sake of the big idea. 

27 minutes ago, maingmoom said:

One reason among many is 39 Billion pounds

 

I think we are way past the stage where anybody is interested in that container of quid, way past.

That dough does not matter anymore.

 

 

20 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Have you agreed your schedule with the other 130+ countries yet? Maybe it’s just one of those minor operational details that can be neglected for the sake of the big idea. 

WTO, is no Dear Mama organisation, its trade

either you have your instruments in order or you don't trade.

 

UK hasn't her instruments in order.

 

we need @sandyf here, he is probably abridge with the latest

 

 

9 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Tell me how Germans can vote out their president. 

I am not German and not bound by German law, won't ever live there again. So it doesn't really bother me ole bean.

4 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Have you agreed your schedule with the other 130+ countries yet? Maybe it’s just one of those minor operational details that can be neglected for the sake of the big idea. 

You are not changing anything and it is an interim agreement. 2/3 majority agreement. So 110 needed. 

Looks like a new bus in town with £39 billion for the NHS slapped on it????

10 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

You are not changing anything and it is an interim agreement. 2/3 majority agreement. So 110 needed. 

Not changing anything? What does that mean? 

 

Either way, that didn’t answer my question. Has the schedule been agreed now? How many days left to WTO world?

43 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

The 52% of those who voted, in what was described as an "advisory referendum" clearly wanted to leave the EU but had no idea what that would actually mean or involve

Take me off that percentage please as I certainly knew what that would mean and involve.

 

Come on everyone knew from David Cameron (PM and leader of remain) that the result of the referendum would be delivered and acted upon regardless of the result.

 

47 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

The lack of ability, responsibility and total disregard of actual British parliamentary procedure demonstrated by the current government, the opposition and most MP's and Lords is staggering. But it's somewhat patronizing and off the mark to suggest that "the British people" brought this on themselves.

Totally Agree.

 

48 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Sad but we see similar in many countries at the moment. Elected governments and politicians being exposed for what they currently are.

I believe that you will see more and more of this especially in Europe. Those in power tend to call it populism. I call it realism where people have realised how they have been played.

7 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Not changing anything? What does that mean? 

 

Either way, that didn’t answer my question. Has the schedule been agreed now? How many days left to WTO world?

WTO or not It's happening, my friend. The UK is leaving the EU. Get over it and start a campaign for a referendum for the UK to re-join. 

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

OK answer these questions please.

 

You have admitted the EU isn't perfect on numerous occasions, so how will it reform as it refuses too?

 

The immigration policy of letting many and supposedly refugees from various countries has failed. How will they clean this mess up?

 

The EU and its refusal to publish/sign off its accounts. How can it been seen as a democratic, legitimate transparent organisation?

 

How can the EU project be seen to have worked when unemployment levels across Europe are so bad in some countries. How can those in Greece, Italy, Spain and France believe the EU and euro is good for them?

 

So you talk about a rational argument. I am putting one to you now.

What makes the EU so good?

 

This is worth a read in my opinion.

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/03/08/the-eus-current-problems-are-largely-of-its-own-making/

 

Good article!

 

I am working in Malaysia today

 

Will respond when I've finished later this afternoon

3 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Take me off that percentage please as I certainly knew what that would mean and involve.

 

Come on everyone knew from David Cameron (PM and leader of remain) that the result of the referendum would be delivered and acted upon regardless of the result.

 

Totally Agree.

 

I believe that you will see more and more of this especially in Europe. Those in power tend to call it populism. I call it realism where people have realised how they have been played.

'Take me off that percentage please as I certainly knew what that would mean and involve."

 

Seriously? You really knew how badly the the Tories, Labor and fringe parties would cock it all up? How May would try to subvert parliamentary procedure and then call an election and get thumped, how the communist Corbyn would try to get power for himself rather than do what's right for the country etc etc.

 

Do you do lottery numbers too? 

 

Agree with your other points