New retiree visa rules bewilder Thai immigration: Source

[tgeezer]

I don’t understand the panic about sums in the bank. The new rules cannot be checked for compliance until someone has been subject to them for one full year. The change to two months seasoning is actually better than the existing rule.
I don’t think that we should be insisting that Immigration check our bank balances at the 90 day report.


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[kannot]

On 2/1/2019 at 8:25 PM, NanLaew said:

And then there are those who have been happy to leave either the 400 k or 800 k totally untouched for year after year. You don't hear much from them. Bloody heretics!

dats me, I  chose the marriage extension years ago and just forgot the money completely.

[Fex Bluse]

31 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I don’t understand the panic about sums in the bank. The new rules cannot be checked for compliance until someone has been subject to them for one full year. The change to two months seasoning is actually better than the existing rule.
I don’t think that we should be insisting that Immigration check our bank balances at the 90 day report.


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But what would be the benefit of having to keep money (400K) locked up in the account for 3 months AFTER the extension is granted? 

[jacko45k]

9 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

But what would be the benefit of having to keep money (400K) locked up in the account for 3 months AFTER the extension is granted? 

The 2 months prior is often called seasoning or seeding.

I have taken to calling the 3 months post application festering or rotting!

The benefit is not for you, but maybe an attempt to make life more difficult for those who had already figured out how to bypass seasoning or even having money or a bank account. 

[Fex Bluse]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:55 PM, Pib said:

IMO the new immigration rules are poorly worded in areas which creates a lot of questions/grey areas and they have implementation dates that are too early to allow a person to satisfy some of the new requirements...like the latest rule being effective 1 Mar 19.  But then I think to myself: TIT.

Thais excel at being vague and ambiguous and facilitating "misunderstandings". And, it is as true in their own Thai language as it is with the English they concoct.

 

They regularly appear unable to think through the likely outcomes and make provisions for them. This is likely a result of an education system that only teaches how to parrot back rehearsed scripts. 

 

A normal country would issue an order making it perfectly clear with timelines and remedies. But TiT

Edited February 5, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[armadillo215]

It's pretty clear what this is for. They are looking for those who have an agent place the funds in the bank until they get their extension then it's withdrawn and returned to said agent w/interest etc.

[Moon37]

11 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Given your experience, can you provide any insight into what kind of pressure might have caused the embassies to announce they would no longer issue affidavits and income letters? And why the four that stopped were willing to do so, whilst the others were able to carry on issuing them as usual? Surely if immigration was intending to change the rules on this, the embassies in question should simply tell them to issue a new order that the letters were no longer to be accepted, and they would comply.

 

Immigration has actually managed to come out smelling of roses on this - I'm wondering if they tricked the four into believing that all the others would follow suit... early comments from the British embassy certainly suggested this would be the case.

i'll add that to what I consider is more important,  WRT the 800/65:  12 months of 65K = 780 (virtually the same as the 800 in the bank).   let's say I don't have an extra 800 sitting around,  and I'm living off my monthly pension, SS, or disability.   I'd just try to make the 65K per month deposits which comes up to their 800K,

(another way to say it, is if one has 800 to sit in a Thai bank, that 800 could be used for the monthly 65K).   

I do agree that it's too coincidental that both the 800/65 effective 1 March and the Direct Deposit IAT rule (which if anyone can find a US bank that will send an IAT formatted Direct Deposit out of the US Borders, please let us know)  As of now the information available is that only the USG is using the Direct Deposit IAT.  And one's monthy security may or may not cover the $2100 (65K THB) .

 

I will get back with you on what I can find out.

 

Moon

 

[wobalt]

Then Europe is not a welfare state either ... pick your choice. (Considering that Europe or the EU are *many states* and not one, anyway)

Correct , but it provides coordination


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[wobalt]

Correct , but it provides coordination


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[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, jacko45k said:

The 2 months prior is often called seasoning or seeding.

I have taken to calling the 3 months post application festering or rotting!

The benefit is not for you, but maybe an attempt to make life more difficult for those who had already figured out how to bypass seasoning or even having money or a bank account. 

What difference would the seasoning-time matter, if someone had a way to bypass the existing seasoning?  The only angle I can see is non-agent lenders or funds-pooling - but the first would be expensive, and the latter very uncommon (requiring a lot of trust between partners).

 

3 hours ago, armadillo215 said:

It's pretty clear what this is for. They are looking for those who have an agent place the funds in the bank until they get their extension then it's withdrawn and returned to said agent w/interest etc.

The agent-money for agent-applications only goes into the account for less than a day as-is, though the seasoning is currently 3 mo.  Given the seasoning is currently being ignored for agent-applications, how would a change in "seasoning-time" prevent the same process from continuing? 

 

I cannot think of a system that could not be bypassed, as long as many IOs take agent-money.

[jacko45k]

38 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

What difference would the seasoning-time matter, if someone had a way to bypass the existing seasoning?  The only angle I can see is non-agent lenders or funds-pooling - but the first would be expensive, and the latter very uncommon (requiring a lot of trust between partners).

 

 

 

I cannot think of a system that could not be bypassed, as long as many IOs take agent-money.

In the past, it was claimed seasoning cold be signed off legitimately. Not certain of that, but anyhow, now it is more stringent, but likely will still be flaunted by agents.

Edited February 5, 2019 by jacko45k

[offset]

41 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

What difference would the seasoning-time matter, if someone had a way to bypass the existing seasoning?  The only angle I can see is non-agent lenders or funds-pooling - but the first would be expensive, and the latter very uncommon (requiring a lot of trust between partners).

 

The agent-money for agent-applications only goes into the account for less than a day as-is, though the seasoning is currently 3 mo.  Given the seasoning is currently being ignored for agent-applications, how would a change in "seasoning-time" prevent the same process from continuing? 

 

I cannot think of a system that could not be bypassed, as long as many IOs take agent-money.

I can think of an easy way by doing bank statements signed of by the bank which if needed can be checked by making a phone call

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, offset said:

I can think of an easy way by doing bank statements signed of by the bank which if needed can be checked by making a phone call

Asking a lot of the banks, and how do we prevent unauthorized inquiries.

[armadillo215]

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

In the past, it was claimed seasoning cold be signed off legitimately. Not certain of that, but anyhow, now it is more stringent, but likely will still be flaunted by agents.

 

6 minutes ago, offset said:

I can think of an easy way by doing bank statements signed of by the bank which if needed can be checked by making a phone call

In my opinion it's not the pre seasoning time at issue but rather the post seasoning time that it must remain for 2 months. If the money is there when extending but gone within a few days there is a question. But I know those who know all will not see logic in what I suggest.

[Jingthing]

In my opinion it's not the pre seasoning time at issue but rather the post seasoning time that it must remain for 2 months. If the money is there when extending but gone within a few days there is a question. But I know those who know all will not see logic in what I suggest.

The new rule 800k seasoning is 2 months before, 3 months after, and then not one baht under 400k for the rest of the year. Onerous city.

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[offset]

20 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Asking a lot of the banks, and how do we prevent unauthorized inquiries.

Easier to do than write a letter for every body 

[armadillo215]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The new rule 800k seasoning is 2 months before, 3 months after, and then not one baht under 400k for the rest of the year. Onerous city.

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Yes I understand that. The 2 months after is what is new. My mistake saying 3 Mo. However the entire topic of this thread has pointed at the Pre extension balance and the reasoning behind it. No one has mentioned the 3 month new portion. I think the change is aimed at those who use agents who put money up for a time then it is returned thus requiring the money remain in an account 3 months.

[attrayant]

So what happens if your balance drops below 400K for a few days in the three-month-after period?  Maybe you had a medical emergency and had to draw on that money (that is why they want us to have that money in the bank, right?  To support ourselves?), but then you made a transfer from home and topped it off again a few days later.

 

Presumably this would not be detected until a year later when it comes time for your next year's renewal.  What would they say?  Get he hell out of the country because you went below 400K for a few days 11 months ago? Pay a fine?

[armadillo215]

6 minutes ago, attrayant said:

So what happens if your balance drops below 400K for a few days in the three-month-after period?  Maybe you had a medical emergency and had to draw on that money (that is why they want us to have that money in the bank, right?  To support ourselves?), but then you made a transfer from home and topped it off again a few days later.

 

Presumably this would not be detected until a year later when it comes time for your next year's renewal.  What would they say?  Get he hell out of the country because you went below 400K for a few days 11 months ago? Pay a fine?

Then I think you would just show proof of what happened or more likely just say what happened because it's my opinion they only want to see the money wasn't put into your account only to get you're extension then given back to whomever.

[armadillo215]

Just now, armadillo215 said:

Then I think you would just show proof of what happened or more likely just say what happened because it's my opinion they only want to see the money wasn't put into your account only to get you're extension then given back to whomever.

Remember, they are trying to find those who don't meet financial requirements and use agents who assist them in many ways.

[ubonjoe]

22 minutes ago, attrayant said:

So what happens if your balance drops below 400K for a few days in the three-month-after period?  Maybe you had a medical emergency and had to draw on that money (that is why they want us to have that money in the bank, right?  To support ourselves?), but then you made a transfer from home and topped it off again a few days later.

 

Presumably this would not be detected until a year later when it comes time for your next year's renewal.  What would they say?  Get he hell out of the country because you went below 400K for a few days 11 months ago? Pay a fine?

For the 2 months before and the 3 months after it has to be 800k baht. Then it is 400k baht until you top up your account to 800k baht at least 2 months before your next extension.

I assume if you did not meet the requirements the would not accept your next extension application.

But if you were able to prove you had a valid reason for it going below the required amount that might consider doing your application.

I think though if it was me and I had a valid reason with verifiable proof I would make a trip to immigration to explain to them when it happened and if possible top up the account back up to 400k baht amount.

[attrayant]

29 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I assume if you did not meet the requirements the would not accept your next extension application.

 

 

Okay but that was in the past.  Now you're back up to 800K and should qualify again?  Or will they actually deny a renewal into 2020 for a momentary dip below 800K (or 400K depending on which month it was) in 2019?  That just seems petty and spiteful.

 

I guess the worst case (being denied for renewal) means you go to a border country and come back in with a brand-new retirement visa?

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by attrayant

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, attrayant said:

 

Okay but that was in the past.  Now you're back up to 800K and should qualify again?  Or will they actually deny a renewal into 2020 for a momentary dip below 800K in 2019?  That just seems petty and spiteful.

...

 

Yes, they've been denying for trivial things like that for many years. 

One baht under 800K during the 800K baht seasoning period for one day would mean denial. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Jingthing

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, armadillo215 said:

I think the change is aimed at those who use agents who put money up for a time then it is returned thus requiring the money remain in an account 3 months.

Reports indicate they currently put up the cash for less than a day - just long enough for one letter.  The 3 mo seasoning before application is waived, or not checked (or something).  Twelve months of fake seasoning does not seem any more difficult to waive, or "not check" (or fake, or whatever they do).

 

4 hours ago, offset said:

I can think of an easy way by doing bank statements signed of by the bank which if needed can be checked by making a phone call

It could - assuming they have permission to access your bank-account info.  But even so, it would fall into the same category as home-visits, landlord-docs, TM-30s, etc - none of which are needed if you use an agent.  Unless periodic bank-balance checks are performed on every application, the agent-apps will always "not be selected" for verification.

 

2 hours ago, armadillo215 said:

Remember, they are trying to find those who don't meet financial requirements and use agents who assist them in many ways.

Or, the exact opposite - create a scenario where fewer people can meet the financial requirements - or are more likely to make an error (even more so with the new monthly-income method), so must use agents who pay them.

Edited February 5, 2019 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, attrayant said:

Get he hell out of the country because you went below 400K for a few days 11 months ago? Pay a fine?

Best case, application denied. Go out and start over - maybe with a forced delay period, so many do not just start over every year to avoid all the post-extension seasoning.

 

Worst case, "You have been on overstay ever since you no longer qualified for this extension."  20K Baht fine, IDC, Banning, etc - all on the table.  This would be the same as someone whose job ends, and their extension based on work ends the same day, regardless of what the "permitted until" date in their passport says.

 

Likely case, "XYZ Visa" fixes it all up for 30K Baht cash.

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, attrayant said:

So what happens if your balance drops below 400K for a few days in the three-month-after period?  Maybe you had a medical emergency and had to draw on that money (that is why they want us to have that money in the bank, right?  To support ourselves?), but then you made a transfer from home and topped it off again a few days later.

 

That used to be the idea. Now it seemingly no longer is and the emphasis is on having this money but not ever spending it.

 

Very poorly thought out.

[Enki]

On 2/5/2019 at 12:45 AM, Fex Bluse said:

But what would be the benefit of having to keep money (400K) locked up in the account for 3 months AFTER the extension is granted? 

You can no longer easily use a "visa service" which "loans" you the money.

[Enki]

Suppose you wanted an NON-O visa, not based on marriage but on family support, does anyone know what the typical monthly payment to the family would be?

[Jlop]

"They must either show evidence of monthly salaries of at least 65,000 baht transferred to a Thai bank account or balances of at least 800,000 baht in their Thai bank accounts." I'm trapped in a vicious cycle trying to relocate to Krabi as a retiree with a large-enough pension. I've gone to two branches of Bangkok bank, one if the several times, trying to open an account in part so I could meet the immigration financial requirements. At various points they requested a work permit (don't have or want), or an embassy letter (I  assuming they mean the old income affidavit). I showed them their own online rules allowing an account if you have a letter from your pension source, and showed them a signed letter from my former employer (US government) listing my pension  They didn't accept it because it looked like it was not a signed original (sorry that's what they send, machine signed). I'm trying to get an original signature, just as US gov shut down. Then they wanted a letter confirming immigration status from the immigration office. Immigration told me yesterday they won't do that unless I have an address book to show. I assume you have to show a long-term rental contract or some kind of home ownership to get that proof, but how can you get that if you can't get the retirement visa, since you can't show the deposits, since you can't get an account, and you can't get an account, since you don't have the address book, and on and on in nauseating circular repetition....

 

I don't give up easily, but it's hard to figure out how to get off of this un-merry go round.

 

 

6 hours ago, hotchilli said:

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jlop

[BertM]

16 minutes ago, Jlop said:

"They must either show evidence of monthly salaries of at least 65,000 baht transferred to a Thai bank account or balances of at least 800,000 baht in their Thai bank accounts." I'm trapped in a vicious cycle trying to relocate to Krabi as a retiree with a large-enough pension. I've gone to two branches of Bangkok bank, one if the several times, trying to open an account in part so I could meet the immigration financial requirements. At various points they requested a work permit (don't have or want), or an embassy letter (I  assuming they mean the old income affidavit). I showed them their own online rules allowing an account if you have a letter from your pension source, and showed them a signed letter from my former employer (US government) listing my pension  They didn't accept it because it looked like it was not a signed original (sorry that's what they send, machine signed). I'm trying to get an original signature, just as US gov shut down. Then they wanted a letter confirming immigration status from the immigration office. Immigration told me yesterday they won't do that unless I have an address book to show. I assume you have to show a long-term rental contract or some kind of home ownership to get that proof, but how can you get that if you can't get the retirement visa, since you can't show the deposits, since you can't get an account, and you can't get an account, since you don't have the address book, and on and on in nauseating circular repetition....

 

 

 

 

 

Let's start from beginning. You probably need to sign a 6 to 12 mtg lease first, then, go apply for 90 day O visa. Then you can open a Thai bank account after showing your visa & lease agmt. Then you will need to transfer 800k into new account or start your monthly transfers. Then, before your 90 day O visa expires, you need to apply for your 12 mth extension.

You can ask Ubonjoe on this forum. He can probably give you the correct steps if mine are not quite correct. That is basically what I did and it worked.

Edited February 15, 2019 by BertM