New retiree visa rules bewilder Thai immigration: Source

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, dallen52 said:

Its obviously not worrying too many agents and  IO officers. 

I received this last night. 

Perhaps they have not heard about the new requirements yet.

When they do I would expect that 24k baht number might have to be double that.

[onera1961]

On 2/1/2019 at 3:43 AM, seajae said:

rules changes that stop IO"S from getting extra payments so IO's had to come up with a new way to be able to make it difficult for those applying, what else can we expect from these people, what will the big boy do now

Corruption will continue in Thailand. There is no end to corruption unless it starts a grass root level. Immigration is not the grass root level. Agent systems provided a valuable service for retirees who could not make it in their country with a retirement income of 40-50 baht. I strongly believe agents will find a work loop hole to exploit because it is an income source for them and the IOs. It is yet to be spelled out how they are going to verify money in the bank? What is the punishment? Unless it's arrest, spending a few days in IDC, and then permanent ban, nothing will change. And I wonder how the World will react if you arrest old people and force them into IDC for using agents. The old people are still bringing money to Thailand and spending their own money. True, they don't meet the requirements. 

[Pattaya46]

21 minutes ago, dallen52 said:

I received this last night. 

 

Dear Sir

For your retirement renewal

 

At the moment We charge 24,000 THB and if you wish to get multiple re entry is 4,000THB extra

We do NOT require bank balance

We do NOT require pension

We SPONSOR all your requirements

We only need passport + photos, we are agency, and can get it done.

We can process in 3-7 business days

(case by case).

We can service you in four ways for an extension

1) You come to our BKK office, and hand me your passport

2) If you are already in BKK we can send one of our couriers to pickup/drop off your passport.

3) You MAIL/EMS your passport to our BKK office

4) You go to your local immigration, and hand your passport to an immigration officer that works with us.

I suppose you immediately send a translated copy to Big Joke ?

[JLCrab]

17 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

What is the punishment?

From Thai Immigration Act 2022 (1979):

Section 63. Whoever leads or brings an alien into the Kingdom or does in any way supporting or assisting or facilitating an alien in making an entry into the Kingdom in violation to this Act, shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding ten years and a fine not exceeding one hundred thousand baht.

[Briggsy]

2 hours ago, skatewash said:

Again, the easiest way to apply the minimum balance checks is when the applicant applies for a new extension of stay (Note: this has nothing whatsoever to do with 90 Day Reports, nor any additional visits to immigration.).  The applicant presents a bank statement covering the previous 12 month period.  If it demonstrates compliance with the new rules --> new extension granted if it doesn't demonstrate compliance with the new rules --> no new extension and possible fines for violating the new rules (like the fine you get for not registering your address properly or not filing timely 90 Day Reports).

Makes sense but it adds an extra step to the extension process. Can't see it happening. Would leaving a gap between extensions (i.e. starting again) void the check of the previous year's balances. What about changing Immigration Offices?

 

The whole thing is too difficult to administer for the volume of applications.

 

I predict yet more tinkering.

[wobalt]

Thailand is a welfare state, just like Europe. Just not on the same level. Why the hate? If you come from a backyard country, what are you doing in Thailand?

Thailand has a social security system but it is not a welfare state like Europe.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

So do I jack, i just think it would be interesting to see if the various immigration offices have actually been updated with the new rules.
How many know.
How many don’t know.
How many just pretend they know when actually don’t know.
and
How many just make some sh1t up to stop people asking. !!

Unless at a very slow/bored office, the answer is "D" - just go away.  At the slow/bored office, they might tell you what they really believe to be true, at that moment, which is subject to change.

 

 

3 hours ago, skatewash said:

Again, the easiest way to apply the minimum balance checks is when the applicant applies for a new extension of stay (Note: this has nothing whatsoever to do with 90 Day Reports, nor any additional visits to immigration.).  The applicant presents a bank statement covering the previous 12 month period.  If it demonstrates compliance with the new rules --> new extension granted if it doesn't demonstrate compliance with the new rules --> no new extension and possible fines for violating the new rules (like the fine you get for not registering your address properly or not filing timely 90 Day Reports).

Or, overstay since your balance first violated the rules - 800K for 3 mo after application or 400K from month 4 to the present.  Then the fine for that, banning, etc.  We really don't know.

 

3 hours ago, skatewash said:

No additional visits required to immigration just the one annual visit to get extension application filed.  90 Day Reports can go away or be done in person or be done online or by mail.  From immigration viewpoint, it is the least work required to enforce the new rules.

Maybe no more visits.  We just don't know.

 

3 hours ago, skatewash said:

Conflating the new rules with 90 Day Reports have led some commentators down very tortuous garden paths.

Agree that we do not know if there will be any correlation, and BJ has even suggested ending those (as is done now for Smart Visas).

[roadrunner32]

Moreover, also the thai Baht contributing to complicate things since it growing too strong against western currencies Then due to this overvaluation of thai currency many are struggling to meet the financial requirements ,not to mention the cost of living. In other words, Thailand is becoming too expensive thanks to the Baht as well

Edited February 3, 2019 by roadrunner32

[KhunFred]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:05 PM, pattayadgw said:

If BJ keeps going down this road he won't have too many foreigners left in LOS.  Just keep squeezing BJ and at the end of it all it will be just another case of som nom naaaa!!  you make ya bed... now sleep in it!!

You speak as if Thai officials actually CARE if farang live here or not. Economics is not a Thai strong suit. They miss the connection between dollars spent by farang retirees and the resulting service jobs created for Thai workers. Many Thai officials exhibit open contempt and jealousy for farang walking around Thailand, doing no work, yet getting payments that are many times what a Thai makes. I have actually had a Thai woman tell me that hiring a native English speaker to teach Engllish is robbing a Thai person of a job. If she could hear the average standard of Thai English as we hear it, she may well have a different viewpoint. One imagines an English class as taught by "Latka", the character played by Andy Kaufman on the American TV program, "TAXI".<removed>

Edited February 3, 2019 by ubonjoe
removed a off topic political comment

[Sheryl]

5 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

^So in addition to the 90 day reports you also have to do a couple 'bank statement reports too? The want to see that money 3 months later then you need to go show them, right? Same 'show them report' whenever they want to see that you haven't taken too much of that seasoned money out of the bank. 

It has not been explained how this will be checked/verified. Probably at the next extension.

 

Which raises the question of how will that be applied? For example - If your last extension was by 800K method but issued before 1 March and you come in to extend again after 1 March when the new rules are in effect will they expect to see 400K balance every month from 1 March forward?

 

My extensions are done in July. I have been using the 800k method. I currently have less than 400K balance left, and prior to these new rules what I would have done is continued to spend it down until April at which time I would have topped up again.  So I am worried. Logically, how I spend the 800K used for extension in July 2018 should not come under the new rules, only the first 800K I use for extensionafter 1 March. But I am not sure I can count on IOs seeing it the same way,  and wondering if I need to do the top up earlier, which will be highly inconvenient as I was going to use funds from an investment that matures in late March.....

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

It has not been explained how this will be checked/verified. Probably at the next extension.

 

Which raises the question of how will that be applied? For example - If your last extension was by 800K method but issued before 1 March and you come in to extend again after 1 March when the new rules are in effect will they expect to see 400K balance every month from 1 March forward?

 

My extensions are done in July. I have been using the 800k method. I currently have less than 400K balance left, and prior to these new rules what I would have done is continued to spend it down until April at which time I would have topped up again.  So I am worried. Logically, how I spend the 800K used for extension in July 2018 should not come under the new rules, only the first 800K I use for extensionafter 1 March. But I am not sure I can count on IOs seeing it the same way,  and wondering if I need to do the top up earlier, which will be highly inconvenient as I was going to use funds from an investment that matures in late March.....

I am concerned too as my last extension I have already gone under 800K in less than three months from the extension date. It's fine and dandy for people to speculate that the order isn't retroactive but how can anyone know for sure how immigration officers are actually going to enforce this. That is unfixable. We aren't freakin' psychics.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again -- in being here over a decade this recent group of orders and supposedly clarifying "memos" that are anything but are the most messed up, confusing, massively unclear monkey wrench immigration has thrown at retirees here. Can't speak for before that. It's paranoid to think we're being intentionally jerked around, but the effect is the same -- we are being jerked around. Maybe the majority of us will be able to work it out through this weird period, but the message should remain loud and clear -- not only are we not offered residence security here, we're subject to the constant threat of new totally unclear "orders" as we've recently seen. Thailand's retirement stock should be seen as having objectively tanked. People that think you're OK  -- just wait for your turn. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Jingthing

[BritManToo]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I am concerned too as my last extension I have already gone under 800K in less than three months from the extension date. It's fine and dandy for people to speculate that the order isn't retroactive but how can anyone know for sure how immigration officers are actually going to enforce this. That is unfixable. We aren't freakin' psychics.

Siam Reap should suit you, lots of nice restaurants for you to choose from, all in walking distance.

1 year multi entry VISA for retired person over 55 is $300, no financials required.

You can even get the bus from Pattaya, about 200bht to the border, then another $7 to Siam Reap.

They even price everything in USD, so it'll be just like home.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's paranoid to think we're being intentionally jerked around, but the effect is the same -- we are being jerked around.

I don't think it is paranoid at all.  It would be different if they were friendly and helpful with a "no corruption" and "love foreigners" reputation, and then this appeared.  We would think, "Golly, must just be a misunderstanding."  But, in the current anti-foreigner + corruption environment, and in light of the embassy-letter routine, it would crazy to think they were NOT jerking us around - again.

[Pib]

IMO the new immigration rules are poorly worded in areas which creates a lot of questions/grey areas and they have implementation dates that are too early to allow a person to satisfy some of the new requirements...like the latest rule being effective 1 Mar 19.  But then I think to myself: TIT.

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Siam Reap should suit you, lots of nice restaurants for you to choose from, all in walking distance.

1 year multi entry VISA for retired person over 55 is $300, no financials required.

You can even get the bus from Pattaya, about 200bht to the border, then another $7 to Siam Reap.

They even price everything in USD, so it'll be just like home.

No interest.

That could end tomorrow.

If I move from Thailand which has become more likely, it will be a place offering permanent residence status to retired foreigners.

I made the mistake of "settling" here so now it's very difficult to extract myself. I don't intend to make that mistake again. 

[marcusarelus]

5 hours ago, brianthainess said:

 And many people don't ,What a load of balls.

Who doesn't have a bank account?  How can you live?  Everyone has a bank account.  If you can travel and live abroad you have a bank account. 

[PFV]

14 hours ago, steve73 said:

So the way I understand this is 800k in the bank for 3 months to get your extension (or 2 months if it's a first extension), then you need to keep your balance over 800k for the following 3 months, and then a minimum of 400k for the next 6 months, before topping it back to over 800k for 3 months in time for next years extension.

No need to show any funds coming into the country (so TW can be used throughout), and no minimum spend necessary.  If you want to live on eg. 20-30k/month you can do so.

 

BUT, if the balance drop below 800/400k at any point in the preceding year (eg. for an emergency situation)  then the next extension would be denied, requiring a border hop for a Visa Exempt 30day (or alternatives), and then convert to a 3 month non-Imm O, and then extend .

But to make the conversion you need to show the money coming from abroad... this might prove difficult if you've already brought it in using (eg.) TW over the preceding year.

 

If coming back on a VE 30 day, then you are correct and would need to transfer in another 800K, but why not just get a new Non-O and extend using existing funds after 90 days?

This is my backup plan if something goes wrong.

[steve73]

2 hours ago, PFV said:

If coming back on a VE 30 day, then you are correct and would need to transfer in another 800K, but why not just get a new Non-O and extend using existing funds after 90 days?

This is my backup plan if something goes wrong.

I thought you could only get non-O (for retirement) from your own country, rather than a local border-hop...?  Plus various other restriction for the non-O...

[metisdead]

Some nonsense posts were reported and removed as well as the replies.

 

Posts commenting on moderation have been removed.  

[ocddave]

On 2/2/2019 at 6:38 AM, NanLaew said:

Yes, let's just have the immigration wing of this banana republic's police farce have access to every foreigner's personal banking information. What could possibly go wrong eh?

I am not talking about access, I am talking about simple totals that show balances, basically a data dump.

[PFV]

2 hours ago, steve73 said:

I thought you could only get non-O (for retirement) from your own country, rather than a local border-hop...?  Plus various other restriction for the non-O...

Good question. I've always gotten mine from my home country, and I know that you can get marriage non-Os from local embassies. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in. 

[HuskerDo]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It has not been explained how this will be checked/verified. Probably at the next extension.

 

Which raises the question of how will that be applied? For example - If your last extension was by 800K method but issued before 1 March and you come in to extend again after 1 March when the new rules are in effect will they expect to see 400K balance every month from 1 March forward?

 

My extensions are done in July. I have been using the 800k method. I currently have less than 400K balance left, and prior to these new rules what I would have done is continued to spend it down until April at which time I would have topped up again.  So I am worried. Logically, how I spend the 800K used for extension in July 2018 should not come under the new rules, only the first 800K I use for extensionafter 1 March. But I am not sure I can count on IOs seeing it the same way,  and wondering if I need to do the top up earlier, which will be highly inconvenient as I was going to use funds from an investment that matures in late March.....

"So I am worried".....

 

If a GM is worried then the rest of us should be also.

[HuskerDo]

11 hours ago, dallen52 said:

Its obviously not worrying too many agents and  IO officers. 

I received this last night. 

(Agency Name withheld)

 

Dear Sir

For your retirement renewal

 

At the moment We charge 24,000 THB and if you wish to get multiple re entry is 4,000THB extra

We do NOT require bank balance

We do NOT require pension

We SPONSOR all your requirements

We only need passport + photos, we are agency, and can get it done.

We can process in 3-7 business days

(case by case).

We can service you in four ways for an extension

1) You come to our BKK office, and hand me your passport

2) If you are already in BKK we can send one of our couriers to pickup/drop off your passport.

3) You MAIL/EMS your passport to our BKK office

 

4) You go to your local immigration, and hand your passport to an immigration officer that works with us.

 

This is hilarious... (number 4)

"We can 'service' you in four ways"...… I don't know about anyone else but I don't like the way that sounds.

Edited February 3, 2019 by HuskerDo

[Moon37]

18 hours ago, HuskerDo said:

Well have you corresponded with the embassy? Complaining on this board will accomplish nothing. If you want your voice heard where it'll count then get to it.

 

FOR THE GOVERMENT NOT-BELIEVERS ON THE US to BB (NY) enroute  BB BKK Goat <deleted>

 

Husker,  Better yet, the  SOURCE who vets the US Direct Debit ransfers into Bangkok New York before forwarding them into Thailand.t    I have known Ms Geoge for five years when she walked  me through moving my monthly stipend from BOA to BB New York and then to my BB Savings Account here for only $3.50 each transaction.   I have talked to her three times since Christmas to get clarification on what I had initially heard and confirmed before I posted.   

 

The short is their is some US regulation that has been overlooked about methods of sending money outside of the Borders of the US.  It's initial purpose is to prevent money laundering or at least have money trails on Originator and Receiver Bank Accounts.  Some how it has been noticed and resurfaced.  I believe it is is probably the US because Thailand could not have calculated how many of us will maintain the 800K THB or the 65K pm and thin out the population of Americans.  There was no discussion about other countries.

 

Fortunately for mi, I have three US Govt payments per month (Pension, Disability & Social Security) which are already being directly deposited. .   For me, aside from the hassle of doing all the defined paperwork on the Thai Immigration, Bangkok Bank will be overwhelmed with new account applications and relief of some regulation that farang cannot have Direct Deposits deposit accounts (probably because you can only withdraw 3 months apart and farangs don't work that way).  

 

My issue is that I send a lot each month for my condo to begin with,.  Adding the extra 65K THB is either just short of one direct deposit (so I'd have to use two and I don't want that mujch coming into Thailand.  And my other concern, is that the IAT has to have your personal home address here in Thailand.  This is George's way of confirming and proving any audit that these direct deposits are legally going outside of US Borders.   (At least one of my three accounts, I cannot let the Gov't agency know that my home address in Thailand).

 

I encourage every Doubting Thomas to call +1 (212) 422-8200. Through the options and Ext 4.  She usually answers on the first ring, but if not as for Gerogie.  She is obviously from the South and very calm and clarifies however long it takes.  I've had at least one call over an hour,.

 

Good Luck 

Moon

[Enki]

16 hours ago, wobalt said:

Thailand has a social security system but it is not a welfare state like Europe.

Then Europe is not a welfare state either ... pick your choice. (Considering that Europe or the EU are *many states* and not one, anyway)

[JackThompson]

19 hours ago, steve73 said:

I thought you could only get non-O (for retirement) from your own country, rather than a local border-hop...?  Plus various other restriction for the non-O...

No.  Single-entry Non-Os based on retirement can be obtained in Laos and Malaysia.  As many immigration offices make it difficult or impossible to get a Non-O stamp, after entering with a Tourist stamp, this is a known workaround. 

 

Some report getting 1-year multi-entry Non-Os based on retirement in those locations also.  Multi-Non-Os based on marriage are frequently obtained at these consulates.

 

But, I would not expect the availability of these to last, if the current agenda of purging many of us out continues on its current course.

Edited February 4, 2019 by JackThompson

[Just1Voice]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 2:49 AM, Moon37 said:

Just1,  That was then, this is now!  I have been using BoA and USAA to transfer funds through Bangkok Bank's New York branch to my Bangkok Bank Savings account.   

 

Bangkok Bank is the only provider in Thailand offering a direct deposit services into a Thai bank account.  And Bank of America has posted FAQs on IAT's at http://corp.bankofamerica.com/documents/16303/235019/IAT_FAQ.pdf

 

However, effective 1 April 2019 the New York branch and Bangkok's Banks will implement some significant changes such as:  forcing a significant amount of effort in both the US and Bangkok Bank to have your IAT set up correctly via "International ACH Transaction" (IAT) from your country to your Bank here in Thailand.

 

I'm not going to list all the conditions that need to be met.  Here is a Bangkok Bank Link which is very detailed.  I also went over a .pdf of it and highlighted the key points (It was actually a very good way for me to understand)  I personally believe that this was instigated on this side of the pond.

 

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/OtherServices/Transfers/

Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch . 

 

 

Bottom Line: One has to use Bangkok Bank (unless you prefer Swift etc).  I cannot confirm but I've heard consistently that US Banks do not want to send funds overseas so they don't have to conform to sending funds as required by the NACHA and OFAC regulations if they did. Fortunately the US Government does all it's direct deposits IAW the IAT format. So for us Yanks, it's the USG and Bangkok Bank.

 

Today $2,077 is equal to 65,000 THB. Not too many Social Security monthly payments are that high.  And, if your divorced, that may cut into your pension and then there's the possible disability benefits.  One may just have enough in one monthly payment, but have to use another check to make sure the badth rate doesn't get you. And then you're bringing too much money into the Land of Smiles.

Best to all,

Moon

Bangkok Bank IAT Detailed Information.pdf

IAT_FAQ.pdf

I do use Bk Bank for both my Social Security check and VA Disability check.  "Deposited" in BK Bank, NY, transferred to Thailand. 

[rainwater]

Still very reasonable requirements for retirement. Much more important would be a mandatory health insurance for anybody on long-term visa or retirement-extensions.
The misery I have witnessed with many foreigners  in my 24 years in TH, due to not having health coverage at all is unreal and not needed. Fully acceptable, that a government does not want low-end and irresponsible foreigners burdening their system. Or it would end up a welfare state like so many European places. There will still be plenty of retirees left, after sorting it all out.  MS>

Thai medical insurance will not cover pre existing conditions, so for older expats who have had strokes or heart attacks or other old age issues, so unless the Thai government can come up with some kind of decent medical plan to cover pre-existing conditions Thai medical insurance will be practically useless...

Sent from my JKM-LX2 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Moon37]

2 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

I do use Bk Bank for both my Social Security check and VA Disability check.  "Deposited" in BK Bank, NY, transferred to Thailand. 

Just1, to already have your monthly payments "direct Deposited"  a great start.  But we have to change my APO address with SS and DVA to my Local Soi address and IAT format for it to get through the New York branch and be accepted by Bangkok Bank here in Thailand. 

 

Direct Deposit application and approval.  Right now everyone is trying to figure out the 800k/65k pm with Immigration, I doubt that Bangkok Bank is working with Immigration about this Direct Deposit from a USG IAT with both effective 1 April 2019.  I'm going to go to one of the top three Bangkok Branches as the document stated When I researched deeper, there was some info on getting the US Embassy involved to make a statement to the Bangkok Bank for the US citizen to get a "Direct Deposit Bank Account".  And this can eventually be teamed with our savings account.

 

Also, there was a statement about not using the 'microbranches' like in the malls etc.

 

I worked in the US Embassys in London and Tokyo for 10 years and am familiar with who does what.  I'll get a Direct Deposit application and take it to the Commerce Section and see how many "deer in the headlights' responses, I get.  In the beginning, withdrawls from the Direct Deposit account have to be in person etc.   

 

Given this occurs, there will be a huge "condos, cars, and plenty of women wanting..."   I

 

I have not heard about this from any other country and do not know who has to comply with the IAT rules.

 

Best,

Moon

[lamyai3]

1 hour ago, Moon37 said:

I worked in the US Embassys in London and Tokyo for 10 years and am familiar with who does what.

Given your experience, can you provide any insight into what kind of pressure might have caused the embassies to announce they would no longer issue affidavits and income letters? And why the four that stopped were willing to do so, whilst the others were able to carry on issuing them as usual? Surely if immigration was intending to change the rules on this, the embassies in question should simply tell them to issue a new order that the letters were no longer to be accepted, and they would comply.

 

Immigration has actually managed to come out smelling of roses on this - I'm wondering if they tricked the four into believing that all the others would follow suit... early comments from the British embassy certainly suggested this would be the case.