Income Method - are immigration moving the goal posts again

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, sumrit said:

Although not normally requested, Immigration have always had the option of requesting the source of the income. This is not new. Nothing has changed.

 

I suspect that with the reports of apparent widespread abuse of the use agents and income affidavits that led to the recent changes, I think Immigration will initially ask for proof of income source from many more extension applicants to try to prevent people from recycling the same 65k/40k every month.

 

"Although not normally requested, Immigration have always had the option of requesting the source of the income."

 

But where they did make such a request they would presumably also need to see some easily-reconcilable correlation between the figures indicated in the source evidence and actual monthly transfers, would they not? How would this be possible if, for example, you needed to hold back some of your monthly income in a home country account to pay for bills there?

 

"I think Immigration will initially ask for proof of income source from many more extension applicants to try to prevent people from recycling the same 65k/40k every month."

 

But would not such recycling be blindingly obvious from subsequent 65k/40k debits appearing in passbooks/statements?

 

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, jesimps said:

I get an annual P60 for my works pension.

My extension is due in late December. I had planned to take my bank book, showing 12 monthly entries of 70k baht with the code FTT and a covering letter from my bank.

 

I will now take, additionally, the documents that I used to send to the British Embassy when applying for my income letter. i.e. My P60, a recent payslip from my company pension provider and 3 months of bank statements showing entries for my company pension.

 

The young man at immigration, who always deals with my extension is a very nice chap, gay, but very nice.

 

I am quietly confident that I will have no problems obtaining my extension.

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, sumrit said:

10 minutes ago, jesimps said:

What widespread abuse? Grateful for sources.

TV threads for one. Just look at the threads that were started towards the end of last year when these extension changes first filtered through. Read all the hundreds of posts by panicking expats

Most having to do with needing to transfer the full-amount and in monthly increments - not because they didn't have the required average-monthly gross-income.

[jesimps]

18 minutes ago, sumrit said:

TV threads for one. Just look at the threads that were started towards the end of last year when these extension changes first filtered through. Read all the hundreds of posts by panicking expats

I haven't read one from anyone saying they deliberately abused the system. I've read plenty saying that they have difficulty proving their source of income under the new rules now that they can no longer swear to it.

[Spidey]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Most having to do with needing to transfer the full-amount and in monthly increments - not because they didn't have the required average-monthly gross-income.

The people that panicked the most were those that, for years had been making false declarations to their embassies and didn't have a genuine income of 65k baht. Of course, they never admitted to that in their posts.

[sumrit]

10 minutes ago, OJAS said:

"Although not normally requested, Immigration have always had the option of requesting the source of the income."

 

But where they did make such a request they would presumably also need to see some easily-reconcilable correlation between the figures indicated in the source evidence and actual monthly transfers, would they not? How would this be possible if, for example, you needed to hold back some of your monthly income in a home country account to pay for bills there?

In the past, they didn't need to see any transfers into Thailand, only an Embassy letter stating your income.

 

 

10 minutes ago, OJAS said:

"I think Immigration will initially ask for proof of income source from many more extension applicants to try to prevent people from recycling the same 65k/40k every month."

 

But would not such recycling be blindingly obvious from subsequent 65k/40k debits appearing in passbooks/statements?

One permanent 65k+ baht float, two Thai bank accounts and a Dee Money account.

 

Asking for the 'home Country' income source details would prevent this.

[mercman24]

funny how some retirees can live in the UK on a pension of 27,000 baht permonth, but this third world country requires them to have 65,000 baht income per month.out of touch with reality or what.

 

[sumrit]

22 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Most having to do with needing to transfer the full-amount and in monthly increments - not because they didn't have the required average-monthly gross-income.

By far the biggest majority were panicking because they could no longer lie in an affidavit and didn't have 65k baht to transfer from their home country every month.

 

There was a certain Mr. Thomson continually telling these posters not to worry, you don't need money, just use an agent and go down the 'money in the bank' route. All sorted for 10-20k baht to the agent once a year, he kept saying. ????????????

[Henryford]

2 hours ago, trd said:

Do you know what a P60 is? You get it if you are drawing a salary for employment in the UK. Why would I have a P60 if I'm not resident in the UK or working in the UK. What are you talking about? You don't get a P60 for pension. You are also making a big assumption that an IO would accept a P60. Where does that idea come from? Why do people keep assuming that IO's are going to accept bits of paper that they think are okay and should be accepted? 

I am not resident or working in the UK (for 15 years) but i get a P60 for my PENSION every year. A P60 is an official Government document which i would have thought would be accepted.

[The Deerhunter]

49 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

This was my experience, as well.  If you are "married to a Thai" then your foreign-income can only be a "pension" at some offices - though it appears they are expanding that trick to retirees, in some offices, as you experienced.

 

Past year's income divided-by 12, if there was no reason to foresee a change from that year to the next. 

 

Yes - but the issue is, you may need to show some passport-country document showing where that income originated - and there is uncertainty as to which types of income qualify (varying by immigration office).

Also, it is a statutory declaration, much like an oath sworn in court.  My embassy is always at pains to explain to me the depth of doo-doo i will find myself in if they catch me lying.  I know what I earn or receive from various sources and could show them my home country bank statement deposits if they wanted to see them.  I also have annual accounts for rental properties showing gross and NETT income from that source as well.

[Spidey]

26 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

funny how some retirees can live in the UK on a pension of 27,000 baht permonth, but this third world country requires them to have 65,000 baht income per month.out of touch with reality or what.

 

No way that I could manage on 65k baht/ month. This month I tried to manage on 70k, probably won't get my money for another 5 days and just had a ruck with the wife because I'm down to my last 5k. Thinking of starting a GoFundMe.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Spidey

[JTXR]

This is very discouraging.  When the U.S. embassy stopped doing affidavits and the new income method rule was announced, it was implied that the 65K just needed to come from outside Thailand.  That in itself could be a hassle, as many threads here have detailed, but manageable.  (I myself opened a Bangkok Bank account I wouldn't otherwise have opened).

If we now need to show documentation of the source of the 65K (in my case that would be from 3 sources: U.S. social security, investment income and savings), well, it will be a royal pain in the butt.  It will also entail showing Thai immigration personal financial documents that I'm not sure their internal privacy safeguards are adequate for.

It increasingly seems TI wants to make the income method so cumbersome in practice that people are forced to throw up their hands and use the 800K method whether they want to or not.

[ThaiBunny]

5 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

5 hours ago, thaitero said:

I think the point is to see you do not cycle same money to thailand and back to your home country.

Maybe so but there are many legit ways farang can get the money to transfer over. No way immigration will be able to cope with the documentation to prove how its generated

Who says they're insisting on being shown documentation on how it is generated?

[scubascuba3]

No way that I could manage on 65k baht/ month. This month I tried to manage on 70k, probably won't get my money for another 5 days and just had a ruck with the wife because I'm down to my last 5k. Thinking of starting a GoFundMe.

Depends on outgoings, those who take care girlfriends etc, expensive some girls. Golf, lots of ways to blow your cash. Wives and girlfriends have secret thai boyfriends to keep, all expensive

 

 

[Spidey]

Just now, scubascuba3 said:

11 minutes ago, Spidey said:

No way that I could manage on 65k baht/ month. This month I tried to manage on 70k, probably won't get my money for another 5 days and just had a ruck with the wife because I'm down to my last 5k. Thinking of starting a GoFundMe.

Depends on outgoings, those who take care girlfriends etc, expensive some girls

I think that the cost ramps up with plurality.

[scubascuba3]

I think that the cost ramps up with plurality.

i gave up golf, that saved me 25k+ a month, so many ways to piss your money up the wall

[ParadiseLost]

40 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

funny how some retirees can live in the UK on a pension of 27,000 baht permonth, but this third world country requires them to have 65,000 baht income per month.out of touch with reality or what.

 

I think many (including myself) can live here on 25k.

 

But, that is without medical coverage, which of course one has in UK. Also public housing is there for those that need it.

 

Suddenly 65k is not so out of touch?

[ParadiseLost]

18 minutes ago, Spidey said:

No way that I could manage on 65k baht/ month. This month I tried to manage on 70k, probably won't get my money for another 5 days and just had a ruck with the wife because I'm down to my last 5k. Thinking of starting a GoFundMe.

Careful having those 'rucks', you may need GoFindMe... ????

[Spidey]

8 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

10 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I think that the cost ramps up with plurality.

i gave up golf, that saved me 25k+ a month, so many ways to piss your money up the wall

Yep, choices, choices, what shall I do?...…...Nope, I think that i'll stick with the hobby harem.

[Jim7777]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It is certainly not written in the amendment to the police order.

But as most people are aware immigration can ask for additional proof if they think it is needed.

It is not clear what they were asking for in that one report of it. Proof of where the money is being transferred from might be enough proof if they suspected your were earning the money here and sending it out of the country and then back again.

Yeah exactly Immigration hasn’t “moved the goal post”, nothing has changed since the last finalized police orders.  This is just business as usual now it appears.  

Edited March 14, 2019 by Jim7777

[LOSBound2014]

I quite comfortably live on a budget of 40k/month on Thailand, and even live in a 20th floor condo situated right on the beach. I eat very well, enjoy the occasional bottle of wine, travel 3 or 4 times a year, and take a girl out for dinner/movie about 2 or 3 times a month.  I don't golf, own a motorbike instead of a car, go out drinking very seldom, stay far away from the go-go's, and do 90% of my own cooking.  I could live on even less if I downsized to a cheaper condo.  Keeping healthy is key, though not always possible, as unexpected things can hit.  But I will enjoy it while I can, and it will be back to Canada and the "free" medical if my health starts to falter badly.  

 

All that to say that I see a 65k monthly income as a reasonable expectation from TI, as it allows for repatriation, emergency medical costs, etc.  

[mike787]

Went through CM immigration today for the first time.  Reading the signs behind all IO's "Do not give tips".  WHAT the heck do people tip IO for????  I have travelled the world, never seen that before.  Tips for IO...it's not like they cooked me dinner, this is not a pizza delivery service...can anyone explain this to me?  NO tips...ahahahha!  

[yodsak]

[ParadiseLost]

16 minutes ago, mike787 said:

Tips for IO...it's not like they cooked me dinner

True, but they sure as hell can cook your goose... Best to stay on their good side, don't you think? ????

[KenKadz]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It is certainly not written in the amendment to the police order.

But as most people are aware immigration can ask for additional proof if they think it is needed.

It is not clear what they were asking for in that one report of it. Proof of where the money is being transferred from might be enough proof if they suspected your were earning the money here and sending it out of the country and then back again.

Interesting that Thai Immigration will accept a document (like a Social Security statement) as additional proof of where the money is coming from, but Thai Immigration has never mentioned an Agency or Mutual Fund retirement statement as a substitute for an embassy income affidavit.

You are a knowledgeable guy Joe, what are your thoughts please?

[2tall]

6 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

The thing is, Income is a very subjective term as is really depends up each countries laws over what is considered income. For example, selling investments in many countries is considered income as the sale of an asset is considered a Taxable event. 

The problem is Thailand immigration are morons. The only way effective way to determine someone's income is a copy of their individual tax filing because lying on that has serious legal ramifications. Immigration would save so many headaches and wasted time if they just required every applicant for extension of stay to show their tax returns.

 

Yes, show the tax return...the one I fudged up...full of make belief or the one that needs to be "certified" by the UK/USA/Au et al embassies that don't do certifications?

Edited March 14, 2019 by 2tall

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

7 hours ago, freedomnow said:

Why doesn't someone send a text message to BJ in Thai about getting all offices on the same page regarding this ? As much as he is hardline to foreigners, he is also hardline to the slobs in Imm. offices.
I'm not a retiree, just an observation that there appears to be a line open to him and from what I read that particular office is a pure headache on the make.

the muppets there are clearly corrupt with the agencies lining up out back but BJ turns a blind eye, we all know so why doesn't he

BJs pockets will be deeper than most, he is not going to do anything that will disrupt his own income stream.

[Nyezhov]

1 hour ago, JTXR said:

It increasingly seems TI wants to make the income method so cumbersome in practice that people are forced to throw up their hands and use the 800K method whether they want to or not.

Agreed. Absent major changes, I wont seek a new extension in January. For the six months I want to be here, its easier to use SETVS/METVs

[bkk6060]

7 hours ago, baansgr said:

Some people were not lucky enough to have gold plated pensions

Well, some of us paid our way thru school, further educated ourselves, made good employment decisions, and risked when it did not seem like the proper thing to do.

Luck had very little to do with it....

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

I think that the cost ramps up with plurality.

i gave up golf, that saved me 25k+ a month, so many ways to piss your money up the wall

Wow.

That is one of the reasons I am here and enjoy Thailand. Sorry to hear you quit.