Do you believe in God and why

[thaibeachlovers]

30 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I find relevant the fact that you, born a Christian, and apparently not having much interest in Indian religion/philosophy, have accepted the theory that souls incarnate repeatedly. 

Although i would not say that's an absolute truth, with the danger of being branded a dogmatic, there are indeed many clues that it works that way. 

Given I believe the soul/ spirit lives forever, I have no problem believing that a soul can come to earth ( or to other planets ) more than once.

 

I have enough problems trying to survive in this culture to be investigating Indian or any other culture that I'm not living in. I lived in Thailand a long time but wasn't interested in a religion that worships 3 headed elephants.

Anyway, I'm far too materialistic to be trying to achieve life without material possessions. I love movies, driving a car etc, and would hate to give them up for spiritual reasons.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

lived in Thailand a long time but wasn't interested in a religion that worships 3 headed elephants.

Fair enough in some way, but i would not confuse religion with the symbolism of religion, moreover I wouldn't confuse religion with individual beliefs or rituals. 

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Yours is a form of superstition, i could explain why, but it would be tiring, and you would not like it.

Enjoy your wonder too ????

And yours (?) isn't superstition?  Most think if you don't believe in what ever is preached, they you go to some version of hell.

 

Sounds like superstition to me.  Nothing but fear mongering to the ignorant for control.  Strangely, people haven't advanced enough to think for themselves yet.  That's the mind boggling part.  Few actually research, and go by what is told them at the weekly sermon.

 

Done all the reading I can, pros & cons, for existence of a God, or even Jesus, and there is nothing to back the existence of either.  Nothing to disprove it either.   Although the Bible is easily proved to be fiction vs real science of earth & evolution.  Nothing holds water as presented in the Christian belief.  Once I researched, I was not longer a believer of.

 

Other religions are simply too silly or immoral to even bother with.

[Tippaporn]

36 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Somebody is saying consciousness is 'mobile'. I guess in dementia and Alzheimers patients that consciousness has migrated somewhere else, far from grandma's head, eh?

 

To comfort themselves, people have come to the bizarre conclusion that even if a physical brain wastes away due to dementia until the person is in a vegetative state, instantly upon passing their memory and personality returns in perfect form and grandma remembers again how to make oatmeal cookies. Also, 5 year olds who die of cancer become all knowing upon passing, despite barely being able to count to ten when their neurons still fired.

 

Science in general, and study into dementia, has shown that consciousness is purely a physical entity. When some of the neurons stop firing and the chemicals no longer do their job, bits and pieces of that individuals memory and personality disappear. Upon death, all neaurons stop firing and everything that individual was ceases to exist. Entropy takes over and in time all the atoms that were once a person form other bits of matter and energy. Stardust to stardust.

 

Personally, if I were to believe any creation myth, I would say deity or deities are likely bacteria, and humans were 'created' in order to be vessels for the trillions of bacteria we all carry in our biome. Clearly it's a 'loving' group of deities who would make such fine vessels as Olympic sprinter Allyson Felix to carry their bacterial 'children'. Certainly my idea makes as much sense as virgin births or no meat on Fridays or dressing up females to look like giant eggplants or angels showing up on mountains, in deserts, in Palmyra, NY, or just in time for the Holidays.

 

The new images from the Webb telescope remind us of how utterly insignificant any of us 8 billion bacteria vessels are on one planet orbiting a mediocre sun, one of a trillion stars in a galaxy that shares spacetime with upwards of 2 trillion other galaxies across a distance of 93 billion light years which contains perhaps 700,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets (700 quintillion).

 

Enjoy the wonder, but best not to clutter it up with myth and superstition.

In truth, science has no clue as to what consciousness is.  If they make that claim they are merely lying.  And if consciousness is a physical entity then where is it?  For science has not been able to locate it's whereabouts.  Science making claims of that which it has no proof.  How unscientific of science.

Science has created it's share of myths no different than religion.  Perhaps it's greatest myth, which is detrimental in my view, is that life is nothing more than purely mechanistic.  The individual has no true volition and no impact on the existence in which he finds himself.  He simply finds himself in a c-r-a-p game of cosmic chance.  It's been said before that surely science must believe in the God of Chance.

Or science's belief, yes belief, of the insignificance of individual life based solely and simply due to a comparison of the vastness of existence.  Science does no benefit by squashing the wonder of life only because it lacks the ability to appreciate that life..

Now I agree that religions are full of myths and superstitions but do not think for a moment that science is innocent of the same.  If you want to discuss the many superstitions of science we could start with the idea that consciousness can be uploaded to a computer.  Or that AI can attain consciousness.

 

You can, though, rest assured that the universe is what is it and functions as it does despite anyone's opinion or belief about what it is or how it works.  In which case prudence would suggest that you find out for yourself.  But that's a task that few have the patience or stomach for and fewer still have an inkling of where to begin in that journey of discovery.  And no, I would not suggest religion as a good starting.
 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Tippaporn

[Sunmaster]

26 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

To comfort themselves,

I think the greatest comfort comes from not challenging one's beliefs, to have the mystery of life neatly labelled, categorized and "explained" in easy to digest bits of data.
 

 

28 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Science in general, and study into dementia, has shown that consciousness is purely a physical entity.

False, science in general has NOT come to any definite conclusion as to how consciousness arises or where it can be found. It may be comforting to believe so, but in the end it's a false statement. 
"Some scientists believe consciousness to be purely physical". There, fixed it.

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

And yours (?) isn't superstition?  Most think if you don't believe in what ever is preached, they you go to some version of hell.

You are confusing me with some other person, obviously. 

Tired to repeat that science is the highest goal of humans, but certain so called scientific theories are just propaganda for materialism. 

If you are not aware of that, i feel sorry for you, but there's always hope ????

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

And yours (?) isn't superstition?  Most think if you don't believe in what ever is preached, they you go to some version of hell.

 

Sounds like superstition to me.  Nothing but fear mongering to the ignorant for control.  Strangely, people haven't advanced enough to think for themselves yet.  That's the mind boggling part.  Few actually research, and go by what is told them at the weekly sermon.

 

Done all the reading I can, pros & cons, for existence of a God, or even Jesus, and there is nothing to back the existence of either.  Nothing to disprove it either.   Although the Bible is easily proved to be fiction vs real science of earth & evolution.  Nothing holds water as presented in the Christian belief.  Once I researched, I was not longer a believer of.

 

Other religions are simply too silly or immoral to even bother with.

You won't find faith in a book.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

And yours (?) isn't superstition?  Most think if you don't believe in what ever is preached, they you go to some version of hell.

 

Sounds like superstition to me.  Nothing but fear mongering to the ignorant for control.  Strangely, people haven't advanced enough to think for themselves yet.  That's the mind boggling part.  Few actually research, and go by what is told them at the weekly sermon.

 

Done all the reading I can, pros & cons, for existence of a God, or even Jesus, and there is nothing to back the existence of either.  Nothing to disprove it either.   Although the Bible is easily proved to be fiction vs real science of earth & evolution.  Nothing holds water as presented in the Christian belief.  Once I researched, I was not longer a believer of.

 

Other religions are simply too silly or immoral to even bother with.

"Strangely, people haven't advanced enough to think for themselves yet.  That's the mind boggling part."

 

Sounds like society in general. People are always jumping on the latest fad, without thinking about it, eg climate change, more than 2 genders, etc.

[Tippaporn]

26 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

And yours (?) isn't superstition?  Most think if you don't believe in what ever is preached, they you go to some version of hell.

 

Sounds like superstition to me.  Nothing but fear mongering to the ignorant for control.  Strangely, people haven't advanced enough to think for themselves yet.  That's the mind boggling part.  Few actually research, and go by what is told them at the weekly sermon.

 

Done all the reading I can, pros & cons, for existence of a God, or even Jesus, and there is nothing to back the existence of either.  Nothing to disprove it either.   Although the Bible is easily proved to be fiction vs real science of earth & evolution.  Nothing holds water as presented in the Christian belief.  Once I researched, I was not longer a believer of.

 

Other religions are simply too silly or immoral to even bother with.

I can't fault you for religion leaving a bad taste in your mouth.  Perhaps the answers lie not in religion or science?  After all, those are only two 'institutions' which offer explanations.  Just because the veil of illusion hasn't been cracked doesn't mean that it can't be cracked.  It does take a serious desire to do so, though.  There's an answer to every question.  But beware; the answers may not be what one expects.  That's the tricky part.  Hint:  the answers lie outside of the box.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Tippaporn

[CharlieH]

Interesting and valid arguments......

 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

2 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Interesting and valid arguments......

 

 

 

The last thing he said (that if you destroyed all spiritual knowledge and scientific knowledge today, in a 1000 years only the scientific facts would come back the same) is just an assumption. In fact, I think the opposite is true. The way science explains reality is in constant change, so what we believe is true today (in scientific terms), is very likely to be outdated in 50 years time, let alone 1000 years. History has clearly shown this to be true.
Spiritual knowledge on the other hand, is not bound by time or place, because it deals with the eternal, unchanging ground of all being. 

[CharlieH]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The last thing he said (that if you destroyed all spiritual knowledge and scientific knowledge today, in a 1000 years only the scientific facts would come back the same) is just an assumption. In fact, I think the opposite is true. The way science explains reality is in constant change, so what we believe is true today (in scientific terms), is very likely to be outdated in 50 years time, let alone 1000 years. History has clearly shown this to be true.
Spiritual knowledge on the other hand, is not bound by time or place, because it deals with the eternal, unchanging ground of all being. 

I think its also fair to say, that even without books, the "story" has been perpetuated for 2000 years already, why wouldnt it continue to be perpetuated for 2000 more if thats what they choose to "believe". 

[Tippaporn]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The last thing he said (that if you destroyed all spiritual knowledge and scientific knowledge today, in a 1000 years only the scientific facts would come back the same) is just an assumption. In fact, I think the opposite is true. The way science explains reality is in constant change, so what we believe is true today (in scientific terms), is very likely to be outdated in 50 years time, let alone 1000 years. History has clearly shown this to be true.
Spiritual knowledge on the other hand, is not bound by time or place, because it deals with the eternal, unchanging ground of all being. 

All men are created equal.

An eternal truth that would definitely be around in 1,000 years and beyond.  At least one would hope it would. 

On the other hand, physical laws are not universal.  They apply only to the physical realm.  And even there they can theoretically be overridden.

[Tippaporn]

5 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

I think its also fair to say, that even without books, the "story" has been perpetuated for 2000 years already, why wouldnt it continue to be perpetuated for 2000 more if thats what they choose to "believe". 

Religions, just like Gods, come and go.

[KhunLA]

33 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

I can't fault you for religion leaving a bad taste in your mouth.  Perhaps the answers lie not in religion or science?  After all, those are only two 'institutions' which offer explanations.  Just because the veil of illusion hasn't been cracked doesn't mean that it can't be cracked.  It does take a serious desire to do so, though.  There's an answer to every question.  But beware; the answers may not be what one expects.  That's the tricky part.  Hint:  the answers lie outside of the box.

 

Been outside the box for as long as I can remember ...

... it's a beautiful place ... ????

[KhunLA]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You won't find faith in a book.

Found it in the mirror ... ????

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

All men are created equal.

An eternal truth that would definitely be around in 1,000 years and beyond.  At least one would hope it would. 

Are you sure that's an absolute truth?

If I said that all men are created different would be false ?

Just think of drops of water, or grains of sand...they look apparently same or similar, but they are not. 

Sorry to bother you ????

[Hummin]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Fair enough in some way, but i would not confuse religion with the symbolism of religion, moreover I wouldn't confuse religion with individual beliefs or rituals. 

Very precise said, I have more problem with Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh symbolism to every religion, how important it is for everyone to give what you can to be acknowledged and accepted, or give for luck and hope, as well all the sacrifice and offering that have been following different culture’s  and belief systems and abused. 
 

Amazing how simple life could have been, but our nature forbid us from using our complete creativity because we get tied up in so many complicated unnecessary  things during our way to be truly a free spirit. 
 

I have tried to leave complicated things behind me, and cultivate simplicity, and it works for me. It doesnt mean I have given up, laid back, it just means Im satisfied with my experiences and do not take it personal anymore, and I do not need to try to change anything, and thats a relief. 
 

Maybe social media made convinced me when I saw how this new wonder opened for everyone to put their meanings and feelings out there, and that was a truly amazing discovery, and proved what I thought before It happened. Sadly we see exactly the opposite happening now, how this new wonder manipulating, expose everyone, storing and using behavior data, and take control over peoples life, and it is not that different from what have repeated itself with other belief systems started as a liberating movement, and ended up as something totally controlling people and government’s. 

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Very precise said, I have more problem with Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh symbolism to every religion, how important it is for everyone to give what you can to be acknowledged and accepted, or give for luck and hope, as well all the sacrifice and offering that have been following different culture’s  and belief systems and abused. 
 

Amazing how simple life could have been, but our nature forbid us from using our complete creativity because we get tied up in so many complicated unnecessary  things during our way to be truly a free spirit. 
 

I have tried to leave complicated things behind me, and cultivate simplicity, and it works for me. It doesnt mean I have given up, laid back, it just means Im satisfied with my experiences and do not take it personal anymore, and I do not need to try to change anything, and thats a relief. 
 

Maybe social media made convinced me when I saw how this new wonder opened for everyone to put their meanings and feelings out there, and that was a truly amazing discovery, and proved what I thought before It happened. Sadly we see exactly the opposite happening now, how this new wonder manipulating, expose everyone, storing and using behavior data, and take control over peoples life, and it is not that different from what have repeated itself with other belief systems started as a liberating movement, and ended up as something totally controlling people and government’s. 

As you said in a previous post, we should study everything from various points of view, that way we can get closer to the truth.

In the same way, a botanical scientist should study every plants, and not just the beautiful or useful plants .

Yes, the world and some people can be horrifying, nonetheless knowledge is better than ignorance imho.

[mauGR1]

 

Who like the Traffic?

Well, the music here's a bit makeshift or even cheesy, but still inspirational imho.

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

All men are created equal.

An eternal truth that would definitely be around in 1,000 years and beyond.  At least one would hope it would. 

"All [persons] are created equal" has NEVER been true in the entire experience of humankind. Unless you have unique definitions of "created" and "equal"...?

[Tippaporn]

48 minutes ago, mikebike said:

"All [persons] are created equal" has NEVER been true in the entire experience of humankind. Unless you have unique definitions of "created" and "equal"...?

Coincidentally I just watched the epic 4 hour long Justice League - Snyders Cut (2021) movie with my 9 y.o. daughter the other week.  At one point she called them the Justice Warriors.  I laughed and promptly corrected her.  I explained that Justice Warriors are not about justice at all.  They're just people with a lot of mixed up ideas. 

Since you want to quibble about definitions I think you should provide us with your definitions and explain why you take exception to a statement the Founding Fathers deemed so truthful that they incorporated it into the United States of America Declaration of Independence.  And then we'll go from there.  If we get that far I promise to give you my honest answer.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Tippaporn

[Hummin]

7 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Coincidentally I just watched the epic 4 hour long Justice League - Snyders Cut (2021) movie with my 9 y.o. daughter the other week.  At one point she called them the Justice Warriors.  I laughed and promptly corrected her.  I explained that Justice Warriors are not about justice at all.  They're just people with a lot of mixed up ideas.

Since you want to quibble about definitions I think you should provide us with your definitions and explain why you take exception to a statement the Founding Fathers deemed so truthful that they incorporated it into the United States of America Declaration of Independence.  And then well go from there.

 

I agree with Mike, on the surface it is hard to spot equality among people who live and come from in families, tribes, societies with borders and limitations. If we talk about other dimensions or consensus we still find differences in equality because of the nature of hierarchy it involves. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I agree with Mike, on the surface it is hard to spot equality among people who live and come from in families, tribes, societies with borders and limitations. If we talk about other dimensions or consensus we still find differences in equality because of the nature of hierarchy it involves. 

If we look at the soul of each individual, we may find so great differences that each individual can be considered absolutely unique. Even twins are very different. 

Although i understand what he's trying to say, to say the every man is equal is at best a half truth.

[Hummin]

20 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

If we look at the soul of each individual, we may find so great differences that each individual can be considered absolutely unique. Even twins are very different. 

Although i understand what he's trying to say, to say the every man is equal is at best a half truth.

Everybody being equal is an ethical goal, especially under the law, but even in the most democratic system and in fairness it is still not true. 

[Tippaporn]

46 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I agree with Mike, on the surface it is hard to spot equality among people who live and come from in families, tribes, societies with borders and limitations. If we talk about other dimensions or consensus we still find differences in equality because of the nature of hierarchy it involves. 

Well, since the Founding Fathers were mostly religious men then I think it's safe to say that the unspoken part of "all men are created equal" would be "in the eyes of God."  One man is not better than another would be another way of saying it.

If you were to take the religious overtones out then it would still apply for the same reason.  I think we can talk about a creator without involving any religion.

Now in my opinion one cannot truly understand the equality that exists in this world (or the justice or lack of) without an understanding of who and what we are.  For most people, and let's be honest, there is little understanding, if any, of why any of us are here in the first place.  Or how we got here.  Or where we were before we came here.  Or where we go when we leave.  To compound this lack of knowledge many do not even believe that life has any meaning or purpose.  Given that then it's not hard to understand why a lot of people would have trouble accepting a true explanation of why we are all equal.  And just to avoid confusion I'll clarify that equality is not synonymous with sameness.

So here's my explanation . . . and I'll leave it for others to accept it or not.

Everyone on this planet has chosen to come here out of free will.  The reason for coming is not at all singular.  But among the many reasons is the desire for growth.  For growth is inherent within creation and it is a condition which exists in all realities.  Growth quite naturally implies challenges.  That should make sense to everyone.  Though we are all created equally all of us are also entirely unique.  Which translates to everyone choosing their own set of particular challenges based on their own personal inclinations, likes and dislikes, etc.

Now if one had a strong interest in becoming a world class skier, for example, then they would naturally gravitate to whatever conditions are necessary that will accommodate the fulfillment of their desire.  Not everyone wants to be a world class skier, obviously.  For those who don't they may even wonder why anyone would want to be a world class skier at all.  Their particular persuasion would be in an entirely different direction.

Imagine, now, someone who has been born without a limb.  Perhaps a missing arm, or leg.  To be born with such a condition presents, obviously, a unique set of challenges.  Not only that but it affords a way to perceive the world differently.  But the condition is nevertheless freely chosen.  Again, others might be utterly aghast that anyone would choose such a life condition.  And that is where the phrase "to each their own" comes from. 

This explanation hopefully conveys some understanding of why people may even choose a life of intolerable conditions.  Or a life of great happiness.  A life as a pauper.  A life as a king.  A life of persecution.  A life of fame and fawning.  Each provides an opportunity for different challenges, for different frames of reference, for different perspectives, for opportunities to bring different abilities and talents to play.  On and on.

Hummin, just keep in mind that I'm not trying to sell you anything or attempting to recruit you.  I'll provide information and it's entirely up to you what you want to do with it.  Sh!tcan it or take it to heart.  That's not my business . . . only yours.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Tippaporn

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Everybody being equal is an ethical goal, especially under the law, but even in the most democratic system and in fairness it is still not true. 

Yes, " the law is equal for everyone " is just a blatant lie, and everyone know that.

Yet, I have to concede that I fully agree with that ideal.

Maybe, some day, it will be true.

[Tippaporn]

12 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

27 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Everybody being equal is an ethical goal, especially under the law, but even in the most democratic system and in fairness it is still not true. 

Yes, " the law is equal for everyone " is just a blatant lie, and everyone know that.

Yet, I have to concede that I fully agree with that ideal.

Maybe, some day, it will be true.

To be blunt the truth is, given that free will is one of the rules of the game, everyone creates their own justice and justice is served all of the time.  Again, keep in mind that the world works as it does despite anyone's beliefs about how it should work.  Therefore do not be shocked if answers are not what one expects them to be.

If the answers are not what one expects then it's a matter of suspending whatever believes one holds at least long enough to give the answer some fair consideration.  What generally happens is that other answers then follow which clarify the original answer.  This is how it's always worked for me.  I discount very little out of hand.  I'll keep an idea in mind without accepting it but I at least allow myself to play with the idea.  Life is meant to be playful.  Unfortunately people have conditioned themselves to be much, much to serious.  Jai yen yen. 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Tippaporn

[Hummin]

12 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, since the Founding Fathers were mostly religious men then I think it's safe to say that the unspoken part of "all men are created equal" would be "in the eyes of God."  One man is not better than another would be another way of saying it.

If you were to take the religious overtones out then it would still apply for the same reason.  I think we can talk about a creator without involving any religion.

Now in my opinion one cannot truly understand the equality that exists in this world (or the justice or lack of) without an understanding of who and what we are.  For most people, and let's be honest, there is little understanding, if any, of why any of us are here in the first place.  Or how we got here.  Or where we were before we came here.  Or where we go when we leave.  To compound this lack of knowledge many do not even believe that life has any meaning or purpose.  Given that then it's not hard to understand why a lot of people would have trouble accepting a true explanation of why we are all equal.  And just to avoid confusion I'll clarify that equality is not synonymous with sameness.

So here's my explanation . . . and I'll leave it for others to accept it or not.

Everyone on this planet has chosen to come here out of free will.  The reason for coming is not at all singular.  But among the many reasons is the desire for growth.  For growth is inherent within creation and it is a condition which exists in all realities.  Growth quite naturally implies challenges.  That should make sense to everyone.  Though we are all created equally all of us are also entirely unique.  Which translates to everyone choosing their own set of particular challenges based on their own personal inclinations, likes and dislikes, etc.

Now if one had a strong interest in becoming a world class skier, for example, then they would naturally gravitate to whatever conditions are necessary that will accommodate the fulfillment of their desire.  Not everyone wants to be a world class skier, obviously.  For those who don't they may even wonder why anyone would want to be a world class skier at all.  Their particular persuasion would be in an entirely different direction.

Imagine, now, someone who has been born without a limb.  Perhaps a missing arm, or leg.  To be born with such a condition presents, obviously, a unique set of challenges.  Not only that but it affords a way to perceive the world differently.  But the condition is nevertheless freely chosen.  Again, others might be utterly aghast that anyone would choose such a life condition.  And that is where the phrase "to each their own" comes from. 

This explanation hopefully conveys some understanding of why people may even choose a life of intolerable conditions.  Or a life of great happiness.  A life as a pauper.  A life as a king.  A life of persecution.  A life of fame and fawning.  Each provides an opportunity for different challenges, for different frames of reference, for different perspectives, for opportunities to bring different abilities and talents to play.  On and on.

Hummin, just keep in mind that I'm not trying to sell you anything or attempting to recruit you.  I'll provide information and it's entirely up to you what you want to do with it.  Sh!tcan it or take it to heart.  That's not my business . . . only yours.

 

Well free will got a different meaning now!

 

I believe I wanted to be good in sport because I wanted attention from my father! Was it free will or a tool to get what I wanted? Later it gave me not only attention from my father, but from girls, and other in the class, the school, media wanted me, and teachers treated me different because I was good in sport and had excuses to not do my homework in time and also other benefits like approved leave early on Fridays or even Thursdays. 

 

I'm just saying, we have choices, but do we really have choices? 

 

Birds kick their siblings out just make sure they get food so they can survive 

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

To be blunt the truth is, given that free will is one of the rules of the game, everyone creates their own justice and justice is served all of the time.  Again, keep in mind that world works as it does despite anyone's beliefs about how it should work.  Therefore do not be shocked if answers are not what one expects them to be.  If the answers are not what one expects then it's a matter of suspending whatever believes one holds at least long enough to give the answer some fair consideration.  What generally happens is that other answers then follow which clarify the original answer.  This is how it's always worked for me.  I discount very little out of hand.  I'll keep an idea in mind without accepting it but I at least allow myself to play with the idea.  Life is meant to be playful.  Unfortunately people have conditioned themselves to be much, much to serious.  Jai yen yen. 

I think most of humans goal was to survive and populate, only a tiny little fraction of our time have been to have joy, and exploit and abuse our reward center in our brain for pure joy only. Those chemicals given as a reward whos only purpose was to keep us alive by giving us the treat to hunt and collect food as well populate.