Do you believe in God and why

[luckyluke]

5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Your opinion can be a possibility, but then you should define better what you mean by "nothing".

In a previous post i said that "nothing", as i intend it, cannot exist by definition, so how could be possible that something like the universe (which we agree it exists) came out of "nothing" ?

And i never said that mine is the only truth, in theory we could be both right, and still disagree.

I am afraid I not understand the first part of your post. 

 

I am pretty sure I never post about "nothing" myself. 

 

But I may be wrong of course. 

 

"We could both be right" is not really what I expected, in fact a more simple answer as :

"You may be right, I may be wrong" would have been crystal clear. 

 

But I can not demand you to express yourself in an unequivocally way, if you don't wish to. 

 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I am afraid I not understand the first part of your post. 

 

I am pretty sure I never post about "nothing" myself. 

 

But I may be wrong of course. 

 

"We could both be right" is not really what I expected, in fact a more simple answer as :

"You may be right, I may be wrong" would have been crystal clear. 

 

But I can not demand you to express yourself in an unequivocally way, if you don't wish to. 

 

Ok, i checked the past posts, and you are right.

You said you don't believe that there must be "something".

Then (my mistake) i assumed that you said that life came out from "nothing".

 

I don't agree with that.. I think there must be an intelligent design at the source of what we consider "reality".

Of course i am trying to be understood in what i say, otherwise there would be no way to have a honest discussion.

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, i checked the past posts, and you are right.

... 

 

 I think there must be an intelligent design at the source... 

Fair enough, we all make mistakes. 

 

 

I expect what I consider as concrete, tangible, visual, proofs before I would accept your opinion. 

 

Of course you may state that for you it is obvious there is an intelligent design, and enough proofs (for you) to accept it. 

 

That's were we differ. 

 

But sure there must be subjects (less philosophical ones) where we both will agree with. 

[ivor bigun]

Well ,i still cant believe that this thread is going ,maybe i will get a poty award if some of you vote for me????

[transam]

1 minute ago, ivor bigun said:

Well ,i still cant believe that this thread is going ,maybe i will get a poty award if some of you vote for me????

More photos for that chum, the parting of the waters, with you wearing a sombrero strolling across may clinch a few votes... ????

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I expect what I consider as concrete, tangible, visual, proofs before I would accept your opinion. 

 

Of course you may state that for you it is obvious there is an intelligent design, and enough proofs (for you) to accept it. 

Of course i cannot take the "intelligent design" and put it on your table as it was a flower or a loaf of bread.

The magnificent design of the universe, the patterns in the hierarchy of sentient beings, the fact that i can say "i am i, i am conscious that i am living in a physical body" is enough proof for me of the existence of an intelligent design.

Making comparisons between different forms of life, and different states of consciousness allows me to understand some of the dynamics of the intelligent design.

Comparing the little which i know, to the infinity of what i don't know, allows me to understand how little we are compared to the intelligent design.

Religions and cults are attempts by the humans to explain what cannot be really explained with words, yet i believe that we can connect with the supreme being in various ways, and as we can see physical evolution at work in the material world, there is an evolution in the spiritual world, but as nothing comes for free, there must be some thought work to be done.

[luckyluke]

^

 

Good for you, you are happy with your method  and thinking. 

 

I am happy also, however with a different approach than yours. 

 

But the most important thing is :

we are both happy. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

^

 

Good for you, you are happy with your method  and thinking. 

 

I am happy also, however with a different approach than yours. 

 

But the most important thing is :

we are both happy. 

I am not always happy.

Something makes me happy, other things make me incredibly sad.

Happiness and sadness are just 2 faces of existence, and both are great teachers.

[luckyluke]

5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I am not always happy.

Something makes me happy, other things make me incredibly sad.

Happiness and sadness are just 2 faces of existence, and both are great teachers.

Well at least we have something common. 

[Sunmaster]

7 hours ago, luckyluke said:

I expect what I consider as concrete, tangible, visual, proofs before I would accept your opinion. 

 

Of course you may state that for you it is obvious there is an intelligent design, and enough proofs (for you) to accept it. 

 

That's were we differ. 

 

But sure there must be subjects (less philosophical ones) where we both will agree with. 

Maybe I can help out a little on this subject.

 

I recently went to a meeting for people interested in Transcendental Meditation (TM) because I want to practice in a more serious and focused manner.

For those who don't know what it is, here's a short description:
TM is a mental technique, developed by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The meditation practice involves the use of a mantra and is practiced for 20 minutes twice per day while sitting with one's eyes closed. It can be practiced without any prior knowledge of meditation and by people of all faiths, including atheists. 

I've read about it before, but I only started to have a deeper look at it thanks to a friend of mine, who has been practicing for about 10 years. He's an atheist I might add.

So, reading more about it on the internet I must say I liked the "no BS" approach they have. Although TM has obviously also a spiritual aspect, they choose a more pragmatical approach, hence the classification of 'mental technique'. In fact, since Maharishi Mahesh Yogi first introduced TM to the US, being a physician himself, he immediately started to back up the meditation with very solid scientific research conducted by independent scientists and then published in serious scientific journals for peer review. There are now 7 telephone book sized tomes of scientific papers, evidencing the physical and mental benefits of TM.
No other claims are made. Only those that are provable and supported by empirical evidence.
There's a great deal of information on the net, so I'll leave it to you to investigate this further if you want.

 

Now, at the meeting I attended, we were asked to introduce ourselves and state what we expected from TM. There were about 20 people in the room and they all stated they were looking for better health, to be less stressed, keep emotions under control or have more mental clarity. Funnily enough, I was the only one who even referred to the spiritual aspect of it all. 

After the 2 hours were a very competent young teacher explains TM and answers all kinds of questions, there was a short personal interview for those who were interested in practicing TM. I had already made up my mind that I wanted to do it, but the 10 minutes I spend with the older teacher gave me the last confirmation. It's difficult to explain (and not intended as further 'evidence'), but there was a sort of "goodness" and peacefulness about him that drew me like a bee to a honeypot.
 

The next step will be the initiation and I very much look forward to that and I'll make sure to detail any further developments if there's interest.

 

I think this is very interesting, because it is a technique that can be learned by anyone, with whatever belief system, it claims physical and mental benefits that are backed up by science, it's easy to learn and highly effective. It's up to the individual if one wants to explore the spiritual aspect of it or not (like my friend).
This could be the common ground I was talking about earlier...
 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

We could possibly start reaching some common ground when you 3 start answering valid questions with valid answers and quit avoiding. C'mon still got the "woo" hat on but it's getting uncomfortable. 

 

@mauGR1

@Sunmaster

@thaibeachlovers

 

Assuming for a brief time...for the sake of the thread and the discussion...that your "god", "spirit", "higher power" exists. Donning my "believer's hat" if you will. Since we're all on the same page now, my question is...What are the proven benefits? How do these gods/spirits/higher powers benefit humankind? The Earth? Our fellow Earthlings?

 

I was chastised previously for asking this very question, but my query was (unintentionally I'm sure) misconstrued as asking for personal benefits and gain...which was not at all the case. Not that there's anything wrong with that! Please enlighten as to the benefits and betterment for our planet and ALL it's inhabitants. Please respond with facts and evidence of proven such benefits. 

 

Am honestly and anxiously awaiting replies. Thank you kindly.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Skeptic7

[luckyluke]

20 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Maybe I can help out a little on this subject... 

 

Personnaly  I am not interested. 

 

At 71+, I now only want to do what I like, with as less possible, what I consider as, a strain, even if others claim it isn't. 

 

But of course it may be an instructive experiment for the ones who don't find it a burden. 

 

So I hope for you it will be what you are looking for. 

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, luckyluke said:

 

Personnaly  I am not interested. 

 

At 71+, I now only want to do what I like, with as less possible, what I consider as, a strain, even if others claim it isn't. 

 

But of course it may be an instructive experiment for the ones who don't find it a burden. 

 

So I hope for you it will be what you are looking for. 

Thanks, but I didn't expect anyone to join.
I was merely talking about something that can be explored on this thread. Something that all sides of the fence can discuss without getting all worked up.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

8 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Thanks, but I didn't expect anyone to join.
I was merely talking about something that can be explored on this thread. Something that all sides of the fence can discuss without getting all worked up.

Don't know if it may be of interest for you, but about 30 years ago, i went to a meeting where an Anthroposophy scholar was lecturing.

I clearly remember when she said : "once you are on a well defined spiritual path, the feeling of loneliness will be striking".

30 years later, now i'm thinking "how true".

[luckyluke]

5 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

...
I was merely talking about something that can be explored on this thread...

 

This thread is about "Do you believe in God, and why".

 

I think all the ones interested have answered the question asked. 

 

It is now, since a while, become an insoluble disputation between "believers" and "non believers". 

 

This is a subject with no winners or losers, and can be going on for ages. 

 

But of course nobody is obliged to post or read. 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

7 hours ago, luckyluke said:

 

This thread is about "Do you believe in God, and why".

 

I think all the ones interested have answered the question asked. 

 

It is now, since a while, become an insoluble disputation between "believers" and "non believers". 

 

This is a subject with no winners or losers, and can be going on for ages. 

 

But of course nobody is obliged to post or read. 

 

 

There's a great book by German writer Hermann Hesse called "The Glass Bead Game" that inspired me deeply. The Glass Bead Game takes place in the future in a place reserved for the life of the mind. Castalia is home to an austere order of intellectuals who play this game. The rules of the game are only alluded to—they are so sophisticated that they are not easy to imagine. Playing the game well requires years of hard study of music, mathematics, and cultural history. The game is essentially an abstract synthesis of all arts and sciences. It proceeds by players making deep connections between seemingly unrelated topics.
 

Contemporary philosopher Ken Wilber did something similar when he developed his Integral Theory. 
Integral theory is his attempt to place a wide diversity of theories and thinkers into one single framework. It is portrayed as a "theory of everything", trying to put together all existing fields and levels of consciousness.

 

This is how I see it too. The various scientific fields and spirituality are seemingly incompatible on the surface, but with a bit of digging you can find the connection. 
"Believers and Non-believers" are two sides of the same coin. The coin is what connects them and gives them meaning.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sunmaster

[sirineou]

9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

There's a great book by German writer Hermann Hesse called "The Glass Bead Game" that inspired me deeply. The Glass Bead Game takes place in the future in a place reserved for the life of the mind. Castalia is home to an austere order of intellectuals who play this game. The rules of the game are only alluded to—they are so sophisticated that they are not easy to imagine. Playing the game well requires years of hard study of music, mathematics, and cultural history. The game is essentially an abstract synthesis of all arts and sciences. It proceeds by players making deep connections between seemingly unrelated topics.
 

Contemporary philosopher Ken Wilber did something similar when he developed his Integral Theory. 
Integral theory is his attempt to place a wide diversity of theories and thinkers into one single framework. It is portrayed as a "theory of everything", trying to put together all existing fields and levels of consciousness.

 

This is how I see it too. The various scientific fields and spirituality are seemingly incompatible on the surface, but with a bit of digging you can find the connection. 
"Believers and Non-believers" are two sides of the same coin. The coin is what connects them and gives them meaning.

So you are saying that the connection is there but we are simply not intelligent enough to see it .

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, sirineou said:

So you are saying that the connection is there but we are simply not intelligent enough to see it .

No, that's what you are saying and please don't put words in my mouth.

It's got nothing to do with intelligence, but with the willingness to seek Truth, whether it fits our belief system or not. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

No, that's what you are saying and please don't put words in my mouth.

It's got nothing to do with intelligence, but with the willingness to seek Truth, whether it fits our belief system or not. 

555 i call it the "pattern".

It came to me naturally, without any effort, i must have done something good in my past lives ????

[Skeptic7]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

555 i call it the "pattern".

It came to me naturally, without any effort, i must have done something good in my past lives ????

Absurd. 

[sirineou]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

No, that's what you are saying and please don't put words in my mouth.

It's got nothing to do with intelligence, but with the willingness to seek Truth, whether it fits our belief system or not. 

This is my opinion, no disrespect to you. 

I know you are not doing it on purpose. but nonetheless you are implying it.

  Unless you don't think that Science and all those who have done research in the field were not  willing to seek the truth. that we are deluding ourselves where it is  possible and way more probable that you might be deluding yourself. 

Could it be true that you suffer from confirmation bias and is willing to only look at that which confirms that which you have already concluded exists , but only if you could look  harder you might find it?

Or have you found it? if so please share it. 

 Saying that I found it but I can't show it to you , you all need to find it yourselves is IMO a copout and has little value to anyone but yourself.

 

If I have misunderstood please explain.

[mauGR1]

Some hopeless people here, asking to share spiritual visions on internet.

Spiritual visions are a gift, or, to use the words of Jesus, they will come "like a thief in the night".

[Sunmaster]

I'm sorry...found what? The ability to connect seemingly unrelated things?

Nothing metaphysical or mysterious about it....it's called creative thinking and it's available to all, although in various degrees. From what I understand, this ability has to do with which side of the brain one uses more.

 

[Skeptic7]

16 minutes ago, sirineou said:

This is my opinion, no disrespect to you. 

I know you are not doing it on purpose. but nonetheless you are implying it.

  Unless you don't think that Science and all those who have done research in the field were not  willing to seek the truth. that we are deluding ourselves where it is  possible and way more probable that you might be deluding yourself. 

Could it be true that you suffer from confirmation bias and is willing to only look at that which confirms that which you have already concluded exists , but only if you could look  harder you might find it?

Or have you found it? if so please share it. 

 Saying that I found it but I can't show it to you , you all need to find it yourselves is IMO a copout and has little value to anyone but yourself.

 

If I have misunderstood please explain.

I've been pleading /asking /prodding /begging for this/something /anything for 8 months with nothing of substance in return. Not one of them can explain or describe it. They don't even understand it themselves and have said as much. If they give an answer, it's total subjective nonsense and word salad with all the dressing. More recently only...

 

"CRICKETS" 

 

 

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

I've been pleading /asking /prodding /begging for this/something /anything for 8 months with nothing of substance in return. Not one of them can explain or describe it. They don't even understand it themselves and have said as much. If they give an answer, it's total subjective nonsense and word salad with all the dressing. More recently only...

 

"CRICKETS" 

 

 

I don't begrudge any of them, IMO :whatever rocks your boat" as long as it does not disturb mine.

It has being an interesting conversation, one that I have enjoyed, They have being polite and respectful and I appreciate it.

  So all I can say is ,Thank You for talking with me.

[Elad]

On 12/4/2019 at 11:53 AM, Sunmaster said:

 

Kundalini, in Hinduism is a form of divine energy believed to be located at the base of the spine. It is an important concept in Śaiva Tantra, where it is believed to be a force or power associated with the divine feminine.

 

From the moment we wake up every morning our spine is subjected to the force of gravity, and since we are somewhat elastic (not rigid bodies) then our spines shrink about 1 cm during the course of each day and when we sleep it expands. When the spine shrinks during the day or when we are stood upright, the 'gravitational potential energy' is converted into 'kinetic energy' causing the spine to shrink, then some of the kinetic energy is converted into 'elastic potential energy' in the spine.

 

Its like squeezing a spring with your hands, the kinetic energy from your muscles is converted to elastic potential energy within the spring and if you let go of the spring the potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy.

 

If you can physically feel energy running through your spine during a 'kundalini experience' then it could be the potential energy being converted into kinetic energy and travelling through the spine?

 

Are kundalini experiences more intense in the evenings when the potential energy in the spine is higher? 

[frantick]

@Sunmaster TM? Spiritual side?  What's the spiritual side; Astral Projection?  OK Lobsang Rampa...????

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/6/2019 at 12:01 AM, luckyluke said:

It may be the case for you and many others, not for me. 

 

Same as I tried to read the Bible and Koran:

I didn't understand it and had a feeling of boring. 

 

We are all different. 

 

I am since ca. 60 years a non-believer, it may change if I encounter a tangible proof of the "existence" of "something". 

 

I am perfectly happy in this situation, and have no doubt that "believers" are happy as well. 

 

Hence I am not trying to convince them that they may be wrong in their opinion/belief. 

 

 

 

 

 

You won't find the answer in a book, as it is within yourself. If you train yourself in a lifetime of study and meditation, you may discover the answer. Most of us can't be bothered to do that, so if we are lucky, we have an epithany, as I did.

 

Re faith; if it were provable, it wouldn't be faith, which is belief in something unprovable by mere humans.

Humanity just isn't advanced enough to be able to prove or disprove the existence of a being capable of creating life the universe and everything. Our science is too primitive for such advanced knowledge.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Some hopeless people here, asking to share spiritual visions on internet.

Spiritual visions are a gift, or, to use the words of Jesus, they will come "like a thief in the night".

Indeed, why would we believers wish to share insight with those that only seek to mock?

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed, why would we believers wish to share insight with those that only seek to mock?

Yep, i recall there is a warning in some book, not to give pearls to the pigs.

Yet we are social animals, and we are somehow in need to communicate with other humans.

Apart from that, it's not easy to translate mystical experiences into words.