17 minutes ago, mikebike said:

The thread IS about belief in god, not spirituality. They are very different things. Please don't make logical falicies. 

These people shift goal posts. Got zero proof on god so sidestep questions like politicians and compare apples and oranges. 

On 7/1/2021 at 10:22 AM, Sunmaster said:

I spell it out for you....mystical experience = spiritual experience = the experience of unity with God

Whoa Nelly. Those things are IN NO WAY equal.

12 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

These people shift goal posts. Got zero proof on god so sidestep questions like politicians and compare apples and oranges. 

Criticizing is fair, but why don't you try first to understand what we're talking about in this thread ?

It's been said a zillion times that God is unprovable with scientific methods, and we are not politicians, we don't get any prize for fooling the people. 

Try again,  and, if it's possible,  try to keep up ????

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

Criticizing is fair, but why don't you try first to understand what we're talking about in this thread ?

It's been said a zillion times that God is unprovable with scientific methods, and we are not politicians, we don't get any prize for fooling the people. 

Try again,  and, if it's possible,  try to keep up ????

Unprovable, my point exactly. Zero proof. Made up storyline to control people. Churches = $

7 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Unprovable, my point exactly. Zero proof. Made up storyline to control people. Churches = $

There's a point in what you say, but to sum up 1000s of years of history in 3 lines is a bit bold,  don't you think  ?

I would recommend you some book, "Sapiens" by Y.N.Harari is a good read.

Just now, mauGR1 said:

There's a point in what you say, but to sum up 1000s of years of history in 3 lines is a bit bold,  don't you think  ?

I would recommend you some book, "Sapiens" by Y.N.Harari is a good read.

Read the bible. Read up on gw etc. They are power movements. Scare people, provide solution make $.

 

 

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

Read the bible. Read up on gw etc. They are power movements. Scare people, provide solution make $.

 

 

As I said, it's a bit more complex than that, and I'd bet you won't be happy to go back to hunting-gathering and a tribal society. 

10 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

God, climate, woke same same. Control people and make $. 

 

That's a cheap shot to throw climate in there. I think criticising climate science is so lazy and it's own form of wokeness i.e. pretending to be woke about some type of fraud. Yes you can quote some examples here and there of specific failures of individual scientists  but the big picture is based on fact.

I can understand criticism of wokeness in general but can't see it has a huge money making opportunity compared to other things. Most wokeness is good intentions in the young, and it's not so new but just has a bigger stage due to social media, and as such gets more coverage than it deserves. The fact is most grown ups don't think much about it and the right uses it as a weapon to demonise the left. 

As Thaibeachlovers loves to say the main posters here are more into god from a non-religious view so lumping posts here with say Scientology, and the worst of Christanity etc, as a money making enterprise is a long bow. 

 

 

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

It is my understanding that these states can be reached/induced by methods other than meditation. In fact in persons who have no concept of meditation or its stated goals. Why is the "practice of meditation" so central to your "brain waves" arguement?

You're absolutely right. I did mention in previous posts that other methods are also conducive to the same or similar experience: dancing (the whirling dervishes), rhythmic music (shamanic drumming), entheogenic plants, strong emotional traumas for example.
I used meditation in my argument due to the fact that it is the most accessible and predictable when it comes to recording the brain wave patterns.

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

The thread IS about belief in god, not spirituality. They are very different things. Please don't make logical falicies. 

Please explain how they are different.

Just now, Sunmaster said:

Please explain how they are different.

God a creator

The other is your own feelings

 

 

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

This is where we know you are stretching your understanding to fit your pre-conceived notions. Mysticism is not unique "states of consciousness".

I don't claim to know everything. If I'm wrong or if you have something to add to this, I'm all ears.

58 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Serious question: have you, personally, experienced this state?

Serious answer: yes, I have. And I shared the experience on this thread.

56 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Whoa Nelly. Those things are IN NO WAY equal.

Please elaborate.
Of course there are different degrees in the expansion of consciousness, but they all point to the same thing and all are relevant to the topic of this thread.

The thread in Summary -

There are those who believe in god

There are those who do not believe in god

And never the twain shall meet

The End

49 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

The thread in Summary -

There are those who believe in god

There are those who do not believe in god

And never the twain shall meet

The End

Everything is connected, and it never ends.????

22 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

As I said, it's a bit more complex than that, and I'd bet you won't be happy to go back to hunting-gathering and a tribal society. 

Nothing wrong with Isan, they are good folk.

I'll have you know.

11 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Nothing wrong with Isan, they are good folk.

I'll have you know.

I didn't say that, been there, done that, even if just for a couple of weeks, and it was enough ????

Tribal societies and hunting-gathering surely have lots of positives, but no thanks. 

 

Reported Troll post removed

23 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

That's a cheap shot to throw climate in there. I think criticising climate science is so lazy and it's own form of wokeness i.e. pretending to be woke about some type of fraud. Yes you can quote some examples here and there of specific failures of individual scientists  but the big picture is based on fact.

I can understand criticism of wokeness in general but can't see it has a huge money making opportunity compared to other things. Most wokeness is good intentions in the young, and it's not so new but just has a bigger stage due to social media, and as such gets more coverage than it deserves. The fact is most grown ups don't think much about it and the right uses it as a weapon to demonise the left. 

As Thaibeachlovers loves to say the main posters here are more into god from a non-religious view so lumping posts here with say Scientology, and the worst of Christanity etc, as a money making enterprise is a long bow. 

 

 

If one believes in God one probably also believes that climate change was designed into Gaia. IMO God knew that certain species might go rogue, rather than living WITH nature, and set about cutting down all the rainforests and polluting the oceans to death, and therefore built in a protective feedback to protect the planet.

 

 

On 7/4/2021 at 12:00 AM, mikebike said:

The thread IS about belief in god, not spirituality. They are very different things. Please don't make logical falicies. 

????????????????

Everything is connected, ergo God and spirituality are both related to each other.

 

Why is everything connected you say- I say because everything on the planet came from the same place in the beginning. Even all humans came from the same place in Africa, as proven by DNA testing.

Before there was a planet, apparently there was just a sort of gas in space that became a planet . Tell me if I'm wrong.

I hope you guys didn't scare @mikebikeaway. ????

I'm interested in reading his point of view. 

I came across this paragraph and had to think about all the instances where the materialists/atheists claimed stuff like "The brain? Pfff, just a bunch of neurons and electrical impulses."...or..."The body? ahh, it's simply a cluster of atoms!". Yes, all true (to a certain point), but also very wrong.

"If we would examine a masterwork of art, say a painting, with a microscope and come to the conclusion that it is nothing but some sort of fibrous matter combined with some colored substance, and that all this can again be reduced to mere elementary vibrations—this would not bring us one step nearer to the phenomenon of beauty or to the understanding of its significance, its meaning or its message; it would only reveal the senselessness of such a philosophy of “nothing-butism” and its methods of “objective” analysis. (In reality it is neither “objective,” i.e., unprejudiced, nor an analysis of the thing in question, because it is an intentional arbitrary suppression of all non-material factors, without which the particular form and composition of matter could not exist.)"
Lama Anagarika Govinda

PS: I know you're confused about a lot of things @Skeptic7...but at least try, will ya?

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

I came across this paragraph and had to think about all the instances where the materialists/atheists claimed stuff like "The brain? Pfff, just a bunch of neurons and electrical impulses."...or..."The body? ahh, it's simply a cluster of atoms!". Yes, all true (to a certain point), but also very wrong.

Not familiar with anyone (on my side anyway) whom claims any of the nonsense spouted above.

 

What's confusing are the broad stroke misrepresentations, deceptive false equivalencies, strawman arguments, willful ignorance concerning evidence and scientific consensus, dismissals of even rudimentary understanding to promote a particular narrative...and general, stereotypical falsehoods, as a diversion, about those whom disagree with this narrative. 

17 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Not familiar with anyone (on my side anyway) whom claims any of the nonsense spouted above.

 

What's confusing are the broad stroke misrepresentations, deceptive false equivalencies, strawman arguments, willful ignorance concerning evidence and scientific consensus, dismissals of even rudimentary understanding to promote a particular narrative...and general, stereotypical falsehoods, as a diversion, about those whom disagree with this narrative. 

If you don't like these things you talk about, maybe you should change and try to improve your condition, because that's exactly your MO. In a world where unlimited knowledge is literally at the tip of your fingers, ignorance is not acceptable. 

I specifically invited you to comment on the scientific research done by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS, but your response was "Whatever bro", and you went on talking about reading dog backwards or other such nonsense. If that's your level of conversation, there's nothing more to say (to you).

15 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

If you don't like these things you talk about, maybe you should change and try to improve your condition. In a world where unlimited knowledge is literally at the tip of your fingers, ignorance is not acceptable. 

I specifically invited you to comment on the scientific research done by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS, but your response was "Whatever bro", and you went on talking about reading dog backwards or other such nonsense. If that's your level of conversation, there's nothing more to say.

Whatever bro. You're as disingenuous as they come. Never denied those science based items, BUT specifically asked for a shred of science based evidence on brain waves and states proving an iota about God. You know...the topic of this thread.

 

You failed just like everyone ever, thus far, on your side. You spouted nonsense about mystical experience??? + spiritual experience??? = God??? NO it doesn't. @mikebike took you to task and you failed again. Smarty he was aware enough to not take your bait and bailed.

 

Whatever bro. Carry on with your agenda. Mikebike had the right idea...tho not sure I can leave you unchecked for long. We'll see. 555

Just now, Skeptic7 said:

Whatever bro. You're as disingenuous as they come. Never denied those science based items, BUT specifically asked for a shred science based evidence on brain waves and states proving an iota about God. You know...the topic of this thread.

 

You failed just like everyone ever, thus far, on your side. You spouted nonsense about mystical experience??? + spiritual experience??? = God??? NO it doesn't. @mikebike took you to task and you failed again. Smarty he was aware enough to not take your bait and bailed.

 

Whatever bro. Carry on with your agenda. Mikebike had the right idea...tho not sure I can leave you unchecked for long. We'll see. 555

Whatever bro...

Mikebike stated that my post was inaccurate, yet somehow conveniently failed to say what exactly. So, that bit accounts for nothing. 

Are you seriously still denying that what is experienced as mystical or spiritual has nothing to do with states of consciousness??? I gave you a short list (short for the sake of brevity) of scientists who believe otherwise, but maybe you know better than them... If that's the case, I would love to hear your opinions. 

"Agenda" 555 are you for real "bro"?? My agenda, if you can call it that, is to promote a better understanding of the topic through many different approaches, either from a spiritual perspective or a scientific one, not to convert anyone. lol
You seem to have a problem with both approaches and are obviously not able to respond, let alone debunk any of it in a logical and rational manner.
Throwing emotional temper tantrums seems to be the standard response.

I hope willful ignorance will follow the way of the Dodo.


 

This discussion reminded me of the famous quote by a Judge sometime in the 60's, so I went a-huntin' ...

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced... [b]ut I know it when I see it ..."

This quote, and the intent behind it, is well known as summarizing the irony and difficulty in trying to define obscenity.

Substitute God for Obscene

On 7/3/2021 at 8:11 PM, Sunmaster said:

Please explain how they are different.

God

/ɡäd/

noun

1. 1.

   (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

    
2. 2.

   (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

    

    

   spir·it·u·al·i·ty

   /ˌspiriCHo͞oˈalədē/

   noun

   1. the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

On 7/3/2021 at 8:17 PM, Sunmaster said:

Please elaborate.
Of course there are different degrees in the expansion of consciousness, but they all point to the same thing and all are relevant to the topic of this thread.

Please see definitions above. I could add mystisism but not really necessary.