Do you believe in God and why

[Fat is a type of crazy]

21 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I have to disagree with this.

To believe is to take something to be true without knowing for sure if it's true or not. "I believe the world was created in 7 days."
The essence of spirituality is spiritual practice, to go from mere believing to knowing through direct experience. 
If you know something to be true, why would you need science to validate it for you? It would be redundant.

You differentiate between believing and knowing. It sounds nice but trusting what you consider as knowledge is potentially seriously flawed of course. 

[Sunmaster]

2 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You differentiate between believing and knowing. It sounds nice but trusting what you consider as knowledge is potentially seriously flawed of course. 

Do you know your hands belong to your body or do you just believe it?
If you are happy, do you know it to be so or do you doubt it?
Would you take someone else's word over your own experience?

How do you discern whether something is true at all?

We have to distinguish subjective knowledge from objective knowledge here.

SK cannot be accessed or proven by anyone other than yourself. But what if my SK and your SK coincide? What if there are many people with the same or very similar SK? What if the SK of countless people throughout history forms a framework or system that can be tested and verified by others who didn't have that SK before?
You may argue that they could all be under the influence of some mass hallucination, but I think it would make a very strong case that there is indeed some truth in that system.
Science seeks objective knowledge, but it's not its task nor does it have the means to validate SK. 

The usual materialist argument is that if science can't prove something, it must mean that it doesn't exist and materialists will run around in circles, unable to find an answer.

It is evident therefore that the two are incompatible. Science is a tool to gain objective knowledge through the scientific process. There are other tools to gain subjective knowledge. The SK gained is not less important and valuable than the OK. 

[Red Phoenix]

54 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

... To believe is to take something to be true without knowing for sure if it's true or not. "I believe the world was created in 7 days."
The essence of spirituality is spiritual practice, to go from mere believing to knowing through direct experience. 
If you know something to be true, why would you need science to validate it for you? It would be redundant.

~

Reminds me of the quote by Friedrich Nietzsche > Belief means not wanting to know what is true.

Glaube heißt Nicht wissen wollen, was wahr ist. ~ Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

 

But imo you correctly added that true 'knowing' is not based on mere hear-say or even study, but has its roots in direct experience. 

In dutch language the five stages of 'understanding' can be differentiated as 

      weten - kennen - kunnen - doen - zijn

The nuances of these words are difficult to render in english, but it roughly translates as

      Having heard - knowing - be able to - doing - being

 

A short explanation to illustrate the above.

When you have heard something you often cannot reproduce it in a coherent way and it is also easily lost/forgotten and needs a reminder to bring it back. 

When you know a subject matter you are a step further and can transmit it to others (who will then be at 'having heard' stage), but it does not necessarily mean that you are able to apply that knowledge in practice. George Bernard Show's quote is applicable here: "Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach"

But being able to apply it does not necessarily mean that you are also actually doing so.

And only when you are actually applying that understanding in practice [ doing ] it might get ingrained and become a part of you.  And when you have fully incorporated it and you 'live that understanding' [ being ] it cannot be taken from you anymore. 

 

So 'believing' is associated with the first 3 stages of understanding, but 'knowing' based on actual practice and direct experience is of a different order.

[Chris Daley]

I like the part where god said to stone gay people and burn the village of Sodom down to the ground and if someone looks back at it turn them into stone and then have sex with your daughters (Genesis 19:30-36).  Great chapter.  But the parts about eating your children (Second Kings 6:24–30) is also one my favorites.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chris Daley

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I have to disagree with this.

To believe is to take something to be true without knowing for sure if it's true or not. "I believe the world was created in 7 days."
The essence of spirituality is spiritual practice, to go from mere believing to knowing through direct experience. 
If you know something to be true, why would you need science to validate it for you? It would be redundant.

I suppose I must have worded my post badly. I don't need any proof to know what I experienced. That was for the benefit of those that actually believe that present day science is correct on everything ( it's not ).

[thaibeachlovers]

41 minutes ago, Chris Daley said:

I like the part where god said to stone gay people and burn the village of Sodom down to the ground and if someone looks back at it turn them into stone and then have sex with your daughters (Genesis 19:30-36).  Great chapter.  But the parts about eating your children (Second Kings 6:24–30) is also one my favorites.

God didn't say that, because it was said by men.

I have no idea why you think because it's in a book that it was said by God, but don't you think that it's a bit silly to believe that?

 

If I wrote a book and told you it was written by God, would you believe me? If you do, I have a bridge for sale.

[Chris Daley]

They believe in an all seeing all powerful deity.  A god that could break the moon in two halves if it felt like it and snap them in half and yet they still crack open a beer and drink it infront of picture of that god.  This means either:

 

1)  They are incredibly brave.

 

2)  They don't really believe in the god.

[ravip]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:52 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

God didn't say that, because it was said by men.

I have no idea why you think because it's in a book that it was said by God, but don't you think that it's a bit silly to believe that?

 

If I wrote a book and told you it was written by God, would you believe me? If you do, I have a bridge for sale.

Sorry to barge in. Weren't all books written by men?

Or have I missed the original? 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, ravip said:

Sorry to barge in. Weren't all books written by men?

Or have I missed the original? 

I was talking about the idea promoted by some on here that because something is in a book it can be the literal word of God, which is IMO ludicrous.

[ravip]

29 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was talking about the idea promoted by some on here that because something is in a book it can be the literal word of God, which is IMO ludicrous.

Yes I agree with you.

But where can one find the 'original' unedited version of God's word?

What we all believe as God's words are what's written by man, isn't it? If the original script is found, many arguments might come to an end IMHO...

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, ravip said:

Yes I agree with you.

But where can one find the 'original' unedited version of God's word?

What we all believe as God's words are what's written by man, isn't it? If the original script is found, many arguments might come to an end IMHO...

If one believes that God Almighty dictated a book for humans to live by I have a bridge for sale.

[ravip]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If one believes that God Almighty dictated a book for humans to live by I have a bridge for sale.

Ok. What are the specifications of the bridge you are selling and the price?

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, ravip said:

Yes I agree with you.

But where can one find the 'original' unedited version of God's word?

What we all believe as God's words are what's written by man, isn't it? If the original script is found, many arguments might come to an end IMHO...

There is only one source and that's within you. 

[ravip]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

There is only one source and that's within you. 

Isn't that imagination? or blind faith?

How many of the earths ~8 billion people could do that and agree as one? 

Is this not the root of all misery on this planet?

[Mark Nothing]

Before eating a meal I ask God to bless my food and drink to keep me healthy.

 

Receiving the food in this way with thanksgiving sanctifies it.

[GammaGlobulin]

I do not believe in God.

 

The reason?

 

I have never seen Him/Her.

 

Neither He nor She has ever spoken to me.

 

Yet, I have seen many burning bushes.

 

And, in Pattaya, there are PLENTY of HOT bushes, for sure!

 

 

[Sunmaster]

13 hours ago, ravip said:

Isn't that imagination? or blind faith?

How many of the earths ~8 billion people could do that and agree as one? 

Is this not the root of all misery on this planet?

No, imagination and faith (a belief in something) are products of the mind. The same goes for the ego 

However, we are looking at that which is behind the mind, the source whence the mind emerges from. 

When you are in the waking state and the dream state, your mind is still active. But where is the mind in deep sleep? Where is the mind in deep meditation? YOU (the real you) disassociates itself from the mind by becoming that which observes the mind. The mind becomes just another object, along with all that the mind creates: thoughts, feelings, beliefs, the ego construction...

 

The root of all misery in the world stems from the identification of the true You with the objects of the mind, including the ego. "I am this body. I am this and that."

 

To look behind that illusion is the solution to all the misery in the world. 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, ravip said:

Isn't that imagination? or blind faith?

How many of the earths ~8 billion people could do that and agree as one? 

Is this not the root of all misery on this planet?

You got it wrong. It's nothing to do with people agreeing with each other, as it's an individual experience. Sunmaster and I apparently agree on some things, but we don't get together to compare notes.

I very much doubt my Damascus moment is the same as anyone else's.

Only religion requires lots of people to agree with each other, and I for one, am not religious.

 

If I misunderstood the post, apologies.

[Mark Nothing]

My Grandmother and Mother used to have conversations with God while doing housework.  It seemed to help them organize their day and ensure everything was done.  And keep love flourishing in the household to keep the family unit in tact.

 

My strategy is to go where God is and talk to him in his environment.

 

The first page of the Bible tells you where he is and how to light up the power.

 

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  God's spirit moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said let there be light, and there was light.

 

I go to the ocean where God is and ask his spirit to provide the light to me. Currently I am asking him to help me understand the Book of Isaiah.  You can ask anything you want, whatever pops into your mind.

[xylophone]

55 minutes ago, Mark Nothing said:

My Grandmother and Mother used to have conversations with God while doing housework.  It seemed to help them organize their day and ensure everything was done.  And keep love flourishing in the household to keep the family unit in tact.

 

My strategy is to go where God is and talk to him in his environment.

 

The first page of the Bible tells you where he is and how to light up the power.

 

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  God's spirit moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said let there be light, and there was light.

 

I go to the ocean where God is and ask his spirit to provide the light to me. Currently I am asking him to help me understand the Book of Isaiah.  You can ask anything you want, whatever pops into your mind.

Lol.........I think this poster is serious!!!!

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Mark Nothing said:

My Grandmother and Mother used to have conversations with God while doing housework.  It seemed to help them organize their day and ensure everything was done.  And keep love flourishing in the household to keep the family unit in tact.

 

My strategy is to go where God is and talk to him in his environment.

 

The first page of the Bible tells you where he is and how to light up the power.

 

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  God's spirit moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said let there be light, and there was light.

 

I go to the ocean where God is and ask his spirit to provide the light to me. Currently I am asking him to help me understand the Book of Isaiah.  You can ask anything you want, whatever pops into your mind.

Is there a place where God is not?

[Photoguy21]

No that is why I find Buddhism better but to each his own.

[Sunmaster]

I had a thought just before falling asleep yesterday and I'm writing it down now in order to not forget.

I was thinking about how the world changes when we have important breakthroughs in our lives, including mystical or spiritual experiences or realizations. 
 

Do you remember the moment when you, as a child, first realized that the worry-free time of being a child had come to an end and you first realized that you're in a new world now? A world ruled and dictated by adults, often filled with blatant contradictions, drama, dishonesty and above all, bogged down by an oppressing seriousness that was in stark contrast to the carefree existence you led until now. What changed? Not the world. The world was the same before and after. What changed was your perspective and the awareness of the dynamics and situations of adulthood.

Or do you remember the first time you discovered the other sex? Just a week before you had no thought about it whatsoever, then you see a beautiful girl and everything changes and a new world opens up before you. Now that's all you can think about: how should I talk? What should I do? What works with girls, what doesn't?
What changed? Not the outside world. You changed; your own perspective changed.

This is normal, right? This is how we grow (up). Our awareness pushes on boundaries and there is usually a catalyst that propels us on the other side, giving us a new way of perceiving things, a new way of thinking and new beliefs. We see this new field and immediately start working out strategies to best navigate this new territory. Some will play the victim to arouse sympathy from others, some prefer to assert themselves forcefully to get what they want, some will try to be accommodating, some play the clowns to make people laugh....we all have our strategy to get attention, recognition, love.
 

With each new change we expand our playground of experience, like new onion layers make the onion grow bigger. We don't throw the old layers away; we just build a new layer around them. We transcend the old layers, but we still include them in our personality. 

So then...a spiritual awakening works the same way. 
It is a change in perspective that allows a new understanding of what we had before our eyes all along. The world itself doesn't change. What changes is our perception and interpretation of it. 
We shouldn't label such a change as good or bad, like we don't say it's good or bad when a seedling grows its first pair of leaves, or when a plant flowers for the first time. It just happens when the conditions and the timing are right. 

Also, an important point....there is no going back. As a child, once you stepped into the world of adults, you can't revert back to the innocence of childhood. Once you discovered the world of sexuality, there is no going back to asexuality. Once you open to the wonders within and know who or what you are, there is no way back to not-knowing. 

For those who don't believe in such a possibility I'd like to ask: Just because that new layer hasn't emerged in your life yet, what makes you think that it can't be a reality for others? What makes you believe that your current awareness has reached its full development/expansion? 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

For those who don't believe in such a possibility I'd like to ask: Just because that new layer hasn't emerged in your life yet, what makes you think that it can't be a reality for others? What makes you believe that your current awareness has reached its full development/expansion? 

IMO it's because it requires one to surrender a certain amount of control, and that scares some people. They fool themselves that they are in control of their lives.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Do you remember the moment when you, as a child, first realized that the worry-free time of being a child had come to an end and you first realized that you're in a new world now?

Never happened for me. My life turned into the brown stuff when my brother died at age two ( I was 4 ) and never got better. I'm not going to go into details, but nothing is ever simple in life, it just takes some longer to find that out than others.

I grew up thinking that a <deleted> life was the norm.

[nausea]

Why not. Makes people happy.  What I really think is between me and the maybe fictitious God. Certainly, people don't act like there's a God. I do believe that I stand naked before all humanity. What I do now, what I did in the past, what I do in the future, will be judged. 

[save the frogs]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:28 AM, Photoguy21 said:

No that is why I find Buddhism better but to each his own.

Just watched this Buddhist talk.

Interesting.

True self, false self. Cool stuff.

 

[Sunmaster]

20 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO it's because it requires one to surrender a certain amount of control, and that scares some people. They fool themselves that they are in control of their lives.

Yes, but we all do to some degree. 

[Sunmaster]

4 hours ago, save the frogs said:

Just watched this Buddhist talk.

Interesting.

True self, false self. Cool stuff.

 

Good one.
If you found this interesting, I suggest watching any of the talks of Swami Sarvapriyananda on YT. I consider him a fantastic speaker, with a wealth of knowledge about religions, philosophy and spirituality. A true gem.

 

[save the frogs]

5 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Good one.
If you found this interesting, I suggest watching any of the talks of Swami Sarvapriyananda on YT. I consider him a fantastic speaker, with a wealth of knowledge about religions, philosophy and spirituality. A true gem.

 

Ok thanks for suggestion