Ireland warns British PM contenders against 'dumbing down' border issue

rooster59 · June 22, 2019

Ireland warns British PM contenders against 'dumbing down' border issue

FILE PHOTO: Ireland's Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney during a press conference in London Britain May 8, 2019. REUTERS/Henry Nicholls

DUBLIN (Reuters) - The contenders to become Britain's prime minister should not "dumb down" the issues Brexit presents for the Irish border by suggesting simplistic solutions, Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney said on Friday.

The candidates seeking to succeed Theresa May have insisted they will seek to renegotiate the United Kingdom's divorce agreement with the European Union.

In particular, they are demanding changes to the Irish "backstop" - a guarantee to ensure no return of extensive border checks between EU-member Ireland and British-run Northern Ireland.

Lead candidate Boris Johnson has said the border issue could be solved during a period of transition, while Britain sorts out future EU relations - a proposal knocked back by Dublin - while Jeremy Hunt repeated again this week that unspecified technology could keep the currently seamless border open.

"I'm very careful not to get involved in the leadership contest in the UK, that would be wrong... But I think it is important that what are presented as facts in the debates we've heard to date are actually scrutinised and challenged," Coveney was quoted as saying by the Irish Times newspaper.

"I do think some of the rhetoric we have heard in the context of the leadership debates in the UK is simply not based on reality - I say that respectfully - these issues cannot be dumbed down into simplistic solutions such as technology will provide all the answers.

"We have to respect the British political system, but we have a responsibility to ensure that the commentary in relation to Ireland and Ireland's position on Brexit is based on facts... People are entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Irish Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe told the Newstalk radio station on Friday he was worried about the claims being made in the political debate in Britain where the trade-offs that come with leaving the EU are still not being discussed.

May announced a month ago that she would step down after failing to get her Brexit deal agreed by parliament.

After being whittled down to two candidates by Conservative Party lawmakers, the 160,000 grassroots members of the party will be asked to choose between Johnson and Hunt to be their new party leader, and prime minister, with the result due next month. Johnson is favourite to win.

(Reporting by Padraic Halpin; Editing by Janet Lawrence)

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sammieuk1 · June 22, 2019

We have to respect the British political system, but we have a responsibility to ensure that the commentary in relation to Ireland and Ireland's position on Brexit is based on facts... People are entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Looks like he is talking about Boris and his facts misleading factory????

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

5 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

We have to respect the British political system, but we have a responsibility to ensure that the commentary in relation to Ireland and Ireland's position on Brexit is based on facts... People are entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Looks like he is talking about Boris and his facts misleading factory????

Yeah, only Rory Stewart was being honest regarding the WAG backstop. It seems both Boris and Hunt can magic a solution - and I feel sure Boris would put it to oneside to be dealt with during a transistion period. That's if he could sway the DUP and the Tory party to pass the WAG, mainly to avoid a GE..

dick dasterdly · June 22, 2019

17 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

We have to respect the British political system, but we have a responsibility to ensure that the commentary in relation to Ireland and Ireland's position on Brexit is based on facts... People are entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Looks like he is talking about Boris and his facts misleading factory????

Looks like he is doing his best to promote the eu's line......????

Edited June 22, 2019 by dick dasterdly

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Looks like he is doing his best to promote the eu's line......????

He's doing his best to protect Ireland from recommencing 'civil war'.

It happened because the UK and the Republic of Ireland were both members of the European Union. The EU’s single market, which came into effect in 1993, instituted the free movement of goods, people, services, and capital among all EU member states.

That meant that even though Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and the Republic of Ireland were two separate countries, border and customs checks between the two weren’t necessary. The EU made an open border practical for both economic and political reasons, and it offered a ready-made roadmap for a peace process.

If the UK leaves the Customs Union when exiting the EU a hard border is inevitable, unless the backstop is still in place. It guarantees 'managed' peace in Ireland, that I'm positive all UK populus - as well as the EU - would endorse.

Edited June 22, 2019 by stephenterry
correction

Bluespunk · June 22, 2019

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Looks like he is doing his best to promote the eu's line......????

He’s doing his best, as the Irish govt has been doing since the brexit vote, to protect the Good Friday Agreement and the people of Ireland from the consequences of its collapse.

In effect he is protecting Eire’s interests and the EU is supporting his line.

Chomper Higgot · June 22, 2019

And he has a sovereign veto on any deal the UK wants with the EU.

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

He’s doing his best, as the Irish govt has been doing since the brexit vote, to protect the Good Friday Agreement and the people of Ireland from the consequences of its collapse.

In effect he is protecting Eire’s interests and the EU is supporting his line.

As has the UK government promised to protect the Good Friday agreement. IMO, any UK PM would never reignite civil war just because the hard Brexiteers prefer making trade deals, instead.

The solution is easy. Stay in the Customs Union and avoid conflict. Extensive trade deals are already in place. Just look at your supermarket shelves and high street shops full of produce from all parts of the globe, including the USA and China.

As Del Boy would say, 'lovely jubbly, you know it makes sense'.

dick dasterdly · June 22, 2019

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And he has a sovereign veto on any deal the UK wants with the EU.

The eu has already made it very clear that it has no interest in talking trade or coming up with a reasonable deal - so this is good news ????.

Shame that he didn't use that veto when the last extension was agreed.....

Edited June 22, 2019 by dick dasterdly

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

The eu has already made it very clear that it has no interest in talking trade or coming up with a reasonable deal - so this is good news ????.

Link please, to this assertion.

Chomper Higgot · June 22, 2019

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The eu has already made it very clear that it has no interest in talking trade or coming up with a reasonable deal - so this is good news ????.

Shame that he didn't use that veto when the last extension was agreed.....

Kind of knocks a hole in the idea that Johnson will get a new deal.

And please, that no-deal nonsense, its just that, nonsense.

Loiner · June 22, 2019

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And he has a sovereign veto on any deal the UK wants with the EU.

Veto away Mr Coveney, as much as you like. The more EU vetos, the further away we get. Unless they want to be sensible about future trade that is.

Loiner · June 22, 2019

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Looks like he is doing his best to promote the eu's line......????

Only interested in protecting the EU and single market, according to his boss. Pity they wouldn't be more interested in their own cross border trade and the GFA.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1143623/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-irish-border-backstop-Leo-Varadkar

Varadkar comes clean over Brexit threat and admits IRELAND would implement no-deal border

LEO Varadkar yesterday conceded that a no-deal Brexit would force Dublin to throw up a hard border in order to protect the European Union

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

2 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Veto away Mr Coveney, as much as you like. The more EU vetos, the further away we get. Unless they want to be sensible about future trade that is.

It is my understanding that the EU said that the best deal for the UK would be to remain in the EU. That's being sensible. Bear in mind that the UK Tory government is hoping to leave the EU, not the other way around. The onus is on the UK to be sensible about future trade agreements, not the EU.

Gone are the colonial days when countries would kowtow to UK demands. A different world now, where 65 million cannot compete with a Union 10 times the size.

transam · June 22, 2019

1 minute ago, stephenterry said:

It is my understanding that the EU said that the best deal for the UK would be to remain in the EU. That's being sensible. Bear in mind that the UK Tory government is hoping to leave the EU, not the other way around. The onus is on the UK to be sensible about future trade agreements, not the EU.

Gone are the colonial days when countries would kowtow to UK demands. A different world now, where 65 million cannot compete with a Union 10 times the size.

You mean the EU countries that have sod all standing behind and looking over the shoulder of the countries running the show.......

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

3 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Only interested in protecting the EU and single market, according to his boss. Pity they wouldn't be more interested in their own cross border trade and the GFA.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1143623/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-irish-border-backstop-Leo-Varadkar

Varadkar comes clean over Brexit threat and admits IRELAND would implement no-deal border

LEO Varadkar yesterday conceded that a no-deal Brexit would force Dublin to throw up a hard border in order to protect the European Union

He also said:-

“The only way that I can see that we can be sure that we avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland is through regulatory alignment.”

Continuing:

Mr Varadkar promised to meet Britain’s next prime minister as soon possible in order to get to work on Theresa May’s draft EU withdrawal agreement. The Irish leader said: “Once there is a new prime minister in place I look forward to an early meeting and look forward to hearing what ideas they may have as to how we may amend the political declaration.”

AGareth2 · June 22, 2019

build a wall

CharlieH · June 22, 2019

Reported posts removed.

Proboscis · June 22, 2019

34 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Only interested in protecting the EU and single market, according to his boss. Pity they wouldn't be more interested in their own cross border trade and the GFA.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1143623/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-irish-border-backstop-Leo-Varadkar

Varadkar comes clean over Brexit threat and admits IRELAND would implement no-deal border

LEO Varadkar yesterday conceded that a no-deal Brexit would force Dublin to throw up a hard border in order to protect the European Union

But I thought that was the whole point of the argument. A crash-out no-deal Brexit would mean a hard border. The only way around that would be the deal that has already been agreed with the EU or a no-deal Brexit with loads of piece-meal agreements about lots of features, such as airlines, different kinds of cross-border services, security issues, goods standards, customs, just to name a few. The latter would mean a mess but not a complete disaster if there were a SUFFICIENTLY MANAGED NO-DEAL BREXIT.

The hope would be that if there were sufficiently managed no-deal Brexit, there would be no need for a hard border, for now. But it would be a real stretch.

The hard fact is that the UK is geographically very close to a group of countries that are all either in the EU or the EEA. Nothing is going to change that fact. And it is true that Britain withdrawing completely from the EU will have an effect on certain countries - Germany most of all, France much less. Since Ireland does only about 15% of its trade with the UK, in theory it will not be affected but much of the trade in goods goes through the UK. In a real hard Brexit with no facility for sealed transit containers, Ireland would have to ship around the island of the UK to access other EU countries. Inconvenient but not impossible.

The real loss as a result of Brexit will be felt in the UK. The harder the Brexit, the worse the economy will suffer - we could be looking at a 10 year depression. Add an outbreak of hostilities in Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and you have additional costs. Add lack of cooperation between EU countries and the UK over security and you will have additional costs. UK will have to develop its own GPS system as it will no longer have access to the EU system. UK will have to run its own pharmacutical testing and standards system as it will no longer have access to the EU system under a hard Brexit.

That is just for starters.

What no one seems to talk about is inflation. When you reduce trade (which withdrawal from the largest trading bloc in the world invariably would result in), prices go up for several reasons - one is shortage of supply. Another is because there is a loss of economies of scale which open borders allow. Customs costs, barriers and tarrifs also lead to increase costs of all imports.

The UK will find itself in a scissors problem - on one hand, it will not be able to make enough in taxes to meet its needs in social payments etc. On the other hand, costs of necessities, especially food, will go up, putting pressure on social payments and the low paid, thereby putting pressure on wages.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Proboscis

nontabury · June 22, 2019

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

He’s doing his best, as the Irish govt has been doing since the brexit vote, to protect the Good Friday Agreement and the people of Ireland from the consequences of its collapse.

In effect he is protecting Eire’s interests and the EU is supporting his line.

Yet the Irish government has now admitted, They will create a hard boarder, thus going against the Good Friday Agreement. Allthough to be fair to them,they will only implement this decision at the bequest of the Bureaucrats in Brussels. The same Bureaucrats who ignored a Democratic decision of the Irish people to vote against the implementation of the so called Lisbon Treaty.

nontabury · June 22, 2019

21 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

But I thought that was the whole point of the argument. A crash-out no-deal Brexit would mean a hard border. The only way around that would be the deal that has already been agreed with the EU or a no-deal Brexit with loads of piece-meal agreements about lots of features, such as airlines, different kinds of cross-border services, security issues, goods standards, customs, just to name a few. The latter would mean a mess but not a complete disaster if there were a SUFFICIENTLY MANAGED NO-DEAL BREXIT.

The hope would be that if there were sufficiently managed no-deal Brexit, there would be no need for a hard border, for now. But it would be a real stretch.

The hard fact is that the UK is geographically very close to a group of countries that are all either in the EU or the EEA. Nothing is going to change that fact. And it is true that Britain withdrawing completely from the EU will have an effect on certain countries - Germany most of all, France much less. Since Ireland does only about 15% of its trade with the U.K,

in theory it will not be affected but much of the trade in goods goes through the UK. In a real hard Brexit with no facility for sealed transit containers, Ireland would have to ship around the island of the UK to access other EU countries. Inconvenient but not impossible.

The real loss as a result of Brexit will be felt in the UK. The harder the Brexit, the worse the economy will suffer - we could be looking at a 10 year depression. Add an outbreak of hostilities in Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and you have additional costs. Add lack of cooperation between EU countries and the UK over security and you will have additional costs. UK will have to develop its own GPS system as it will no longer have access to the EU system. UK will have to run its own pharmacutical testing and standards system as it will no longer have access to the EU system under a hard Brexit.

That is just for starters.

What no one seems to talk about is inflation. When you reduce trade (which withdrawal from the largest trading bloc in the world invariably would result in), prices go up for several reasons - one is shortage of supply. Another is because there is a loss of economies of scale which open borders allow. Customs costs, barriers and tarrifs also lead to increase costs of all imports.

The UK will find itself in a scissors problem - on one hand, it will not be able to make enough in taxes to meet its needs in social payments etc. On the other hand, costs of necessities, especially food, will go up, putting pressure on social payments and the low paid, thereby putting pressure on wages.

Please excuse me for highlighting a section of your opinioned post, but perhaps you can show proof of this assertion.

nauseus · June 22, 2019

39 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

But I thought that was the whole point of the argument. A crash-out no-deal Brexit would mean a hard border. The only way around that would be the deal that has already been agreed with the EU or a no-deal Brexit with loads of piece-meal agreements about lots of features, such as airlines, different kinds of cross-border services, security issues, goods standards, customs, just to name a few. The latter would mean a mess but not a complete disaster if there were a SUFFICIENTLY MANAGED NO-DEAL BREXIT.

The hope would be that if there were sufficiently managed no-deal Brexit, there would be no need for a hard border, for now. But it would be a real stretch.

The hard fact is that the UK is geographically very close to a group of countries that are all either in the EU or the EEA. Nothing is going to change that fact. And it is true that Britain withdrawing completely from the EU will have an effect on certain countries - Germany most of all, France much less. Since Ireland does only about 15% of its trade with the UK, in theory it will not be affected but much of the trade in goods goes through the UK. In a real hard Brexit with no facility for sealed transit containers, Ireland would have to ship around the island of the UK to access other EU countries. Inconvenient but not impossible.

The real loss as a result of Brexit will be felt in the UK. The harder the Brexit, the worse the economy will suffer - we could be looking at a 10 year depression. Add an outbreak of hostilities in Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and you have additional costs. Add lack of cooperation between EU countries and the UK over security and you will have additional costs. UK will have to develop its own GPS system as it will no longer have access to the EU system. UK will have to run its own pharmacutical testing and standards system as it will no longer have access to the EU system under a hard Brexit.

That is just for starters.

What no one seems to talk about is inflation. When you reduce trade (which withdrawal from the largest trading bloc in the world invariably would result in), prices go up for several reasons - one is shortage of supply. Another is because there is a loss of economies of scale which open borders allow. Customs costs, barriers and tarrifs also lead to increase costs of all imports.

The UK will find itself in a scissors problem - on one hand, it will not be able to make enough in taxes to meet its needs in social payments etc. On the other hand, costs of necessities, especially food, will go up, putting pressure on social payments and the low paid, thereby putting pressure on wages.

Quite wrong. Ireland will be very much affected if no deal. Especially farmers, particularly beef exports.

darksidedog · June 22, 2019

Multiple bickering, baiting and off topic posts and replies have been removed.

I will say this only once. Stay on topic and avoid personal attacks.

If you find that too difficult, I will be happy to give you a posting holiday to give you time to work it out.

Bluespunk · June 22, 2019

35 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Yet the Irish government has now admitted, They will create a hard boarder, thus going against the Good Friday Agreement. Allthough to be fair to them,they will only implement this decision at the bequest of the Bureaucrats in Brussels. The same Bureaucrats who ignored a Democratic decision of the Irish people to vote against the implementation of the so called Lisbon Treaty.

That is a position forced on them by Tory brexiteers ineptitude.

Nothing to to do with bureaucracy.

Accept the backdoor arrangement and problem solved.

stephenterry · June 22, 2019

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Quite wrong. Ireland will be very much affected if no deal. Especially farmers, particularly beef exports.

Yeah, I heard that woud apply to all UK farmers, not just Ireland. If there is a hard Brexit, what would be the outcome and how would the government resolve it?

chilli42 · June 22, 2019

Hey, what about just giving N Ireland back to the Irish and have done with the whole thing? Solves the border issue with Brexit, ensures the peace and puts right the historic injustice that N Ireland represents.

nauseus · June 22, 2019

37 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Yeah, I heard that woud apply to all UK farmers, not just Ireland. If there is a hard Brexit, what would be the outcome and how would the government resolve it?

Ireland is not in the UK. Which government are you talking about?

nauseus · June 22, 2019

46 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

That is a position forced on them by Tory brexiteers ineptitude.

Nothing to to do with bureaucracy.

Accept the backdoor arrangement and problem solved.

This position is being unnecessarily pushed and forced by the EU to create a major hurdle to Brexit by inserting this "backstop" into their withdrawal agreement.

Loiner · June 22, 2019

53 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

That is a position forced on them by Tory brexiteers ineptitude.

Nothing to to do with bureaucracy.

Accept the backdoor arrangement and problem solved.

Totally forced on Ireland by the EU. Well that's what you get from a protectionist bloc.

Ireland could agree a sensible trade agreement over an imaginary border with its' biggest partner the UK. By the weakness of their own bureaucrats, they are forced into accepting the the diktats of the Brussels bureaucracy to protect peasant agroeconomies in Europe.
Their arrangement will be a backdoor shafting by the EU and for the EU.

Bluespunk · June 22, 2019

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Totally forced on Ireland by the EU. Well that's what you get from a protectionist bloc.

Ireland could agree a sensible trade agreement over an imaginary border with its' biggest partner the UK. By the weakness of their own bureaucrats, they are forced into accepting the the diktats of the Brussels bureaucracy to protect peasant agroeconomies in Europe.
Their arrangement will be a backdoor shafting by the EU and for the EU.

You are wrong on every single point.

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