Thailand’s tourism – stormy weather ahead

[garyk]

19 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Average with a degree is 84,000  https://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/thailand

BS

[madmen]

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I know many that manage to live on less than 20k, almost all the Thai population, and some foreigners.

There are several VISAs available that have no financial requirements including Elite.

I could easily live on 20k if I were single, or had a partner that contributed rather than took.

 

All the 7-11/Tesco/Makro/BigC/KFC (et al) menial staff are on 9k/month nationwide.

Rent assuming your not sleeping on 7/11 steps and water and electric and health insurance? 

[Traubert]

8 hours ago, DrTuner said:

Never said UN's compilation was false, however the source of their figures for Thailand is likely TAT, which must be handled with extreme prejudice, i.e. never believe a single thing unless it's been audited by a non-Thai trusted 3rd party.

 

Still, it said nothing about the distribution of spenditure by Chinese tourists. Again I'll just pull something out of my arse and estimate 90% of the lowest spending tourists come to Thailand and 90% of the highest spending go to Europe. As valid as any.

You don't think the UN would ratify any figures they publish? They don't have a mission in every member country?

 

You think the Chinese only travel once each year? If I were you, I'd flush the proceeds of your arse instead of using it for wisdom.

 

What figure represents a high spender and what, in the same terms, is a low spender?

 

 

[mikecha]

u come or go take or lave it    thailand will always be here 

just sorry for the very local comunity pople they suffer

no income 

[Edwin Cameron]

I have been to Thailand many,many times,however this year I was treated so rudely by a Thai female immigration officer that I'm seriously thinking of not returning. I'm 71 and to be talked to like an errant school kid took me by surprise as I've never had any problems before entering Thailand. To be greeted by a ranting Thai immigration officer put a very sour taste in my mouth all for making a miniscule mistake on my entry form.

[mstevens]

12 hours ago, DrTuner said:

Well, here's an interesting task for those that like puzzles: Count the number of caucasians and others in the photo. That some kind of concert day? I've been to KSR quite a few times and it's never been this crowded. 

It's easy to post one photo of one particular event and say that it is representative of that place. Using that photo to suggest Khao San Road is busy all the time is ridiculous. It isn't busy at all and the vibe has changed massively. The Khao San Road area (whether one likes it or not and I don't particularly) does not have the vibe, nor crucially the lure, that it used to.

[cmsally]

3 hours ago, mstevens said:

It's easy to post one photo of one particular event and say that it is representative of that place. Using that photo to suggest Khao San Road is busy all the time is ridiculous. It isn't busy at all and the vibe has changed massively. The Khao San Road area (whether one likes it or not and I don't particularly) does not have the vibe, nor crucially the lure, that it used to.

 

Last month I was in BKK and had a bit of spare time so went for a coffee in the Khaosan Road area. The whole area has decidedly lost its mojo. All the street stalls gone as well as the stalls lining some of the pavement up Samsen. The whole area was deathly quiet. The soi to the side of the temple is still fairly lively and more shops seemed to have opened up in that soi, probably escaping from Khaosan Road. If anyone is going to Khaosan Road as a destination, they will be hugely disappointed.

 

[CaptainJack]

I am finding this entire topic about tourism and all the other issues really interesting,  especially since my old girlfriend just now informed me her old university, under a government program is paying to send 10,000 Thai university graduates to a 12 week class to learn basic Chinese.   

 

Trying to get any understanding of what is really going on in Thailand now is an exercise in futility. 

[JAG]

17 hours ago, Traubert said:

Or are the United Nations liars and incompetents too?

A reasonable starting point, a cynic might say! ????

 

Leaving that aside, the venues at which "whitey" tends to spend his holiday money are different from those favoured by the Asian organised tour market. These are the businesses, often run by the less "influential amongst those in the industry" which are suffering. 

 

The big boys will still have their corralled bus loads, all paid for up front in Yuan...

[JAG]

16 hours ago, Traubert said:

I'd like to see some peer reviewed evidence to that effect. That's a daily spend of Bht1369, By no means large potatoes. When the same figure was pinned on a Chinese tourist, you'd hear the howls in the queue in HMC Immigration Office.

True, but the "whitey" expat is here 365 days a year.

[simon43]

Quote

 

...especially since my old girlfriend just now informed me her old university, under a government program is paying to send 10,000 Thai university graduates to a 12 week class to learn basic Chinese. 
 

 

 

If there are still any 'whitey' expats who think that Thailand welcomes Western tourists, expats or retirees, or that the visa/financial 'noose' will not be tightened in the future to force them out, they are totally delusional!

 

Better for expats to leave now on your own terms, not theirs.  I'm out by the middle of next month.  For visiting tourists, there are many other countries in this region which are more welcoming.

 

[DrTuner]

6 hours ago, Traubert said:

You don't think the UN would ratify any figures they publish?

No, I don't. I know how they work as I've had dealings with them. They aggregate data from different sources and add the caveat to their findings. Any "ratification" from UN would be a multi year process, if they could ever find a department to actually do such a thing.

 

They also produce their own material, such as the UNDP's study here: https://www.undp.org/content/dam/thailand/docs/TICAUNDPbpVol1.pdf . Feel free to read from page 97 on. You'll find Thais screwed it all up by allowing unfettered mass tourism from low income countries.

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, cmsally said:

The soi to the side of the temple is still fairly lively and more shops seemed to have opened up in that soi, probably escaping from Khaosan Road.

It was the case three years ago when I last visited too. That soi still had the "feeling" of Thailand from a decade ago. There are still isolated cul de sacs that have managed to retain it.

[Sonhia]

Simple, Thailand has become far too filthy, unclean, expensive, polluted, unhygynic, corrupt, dangerous, noisy, lawless, jumped up, unsafe with most Thai seemingly demonstrating little or no respect toward farang, but a show a lot of racism!!

 

As a farang in Thailand what can a farang legally do or own? Very very little. It is also a very unfair place to live in as an expat, not forgetting the pathetic visa requlations plus one price for Thai with a much higher price for farang. 

 

What happened to the land of smiles, friendliness, safeness, cleanliness plus value for money?

 

Thailand is visted, or should I say was, mainly by tourists who are very important for the Thai economy, but how many Thai and those within the tourist sectors understand that? How many can communicate with understandable English, the global language? Very little can!

 

The authorites should open their eyes and educate Thai to the importance of farang visiting Thailand and the many benifits farang bring to a country that offers now, very little...

 

Farang are not ATM machines or personal banks on legs. Give farang the respect that most deserve.

 

If Thai do not want farang in Thailand then simply kick all farang out and stop farang from visiting. Simple!!

 

The tide of change should be viewed as a wake up call by Thai by getting their act together by being less egotistic, so that all can enjoy Thailand and prosper with good feelings no matter what the race, colour or creed!

 

 

[Sonhia]

No surprice, just look at the place and compare it to other destinations,

plus most Thai dislike most foreginers. Foreginers are viewed as fresh fish, easy pickings. ATM, walking personal banks.

 

Thai have had it far too good for far too long. Tide of change at last...

[Polaky]

I don't think it is as bad as they are making out, a quick search for hotels in Pattaya I can no decline in prices, if anything they have gone up, last year i got the march hotel for 28 a night, now it is hovering around 55, most others are in an upward trend, so it's not as desperate as some make out.

[jing jing]

3 hours ago, CaptainJack said:

I am finding this entire topic about tourism and all the other issues really interesting,  especially since my old girlfriend just now informed me her old university, under a government program is paying to send 10,000 Thai university graduates to a 12 week class to learn basic Chinese.   

 

Trying to get any understanding of what is really going on in Thailand now is an exercise in futility. 

Only if you approach the analysis with the bias of the disgruntled Western expat, which includes virtually all contributors to this topic.  Looking at the Big Picture may lead one to conclude that despite this blip in the tourism numbers, all is going as planned since the "adjustment" required after Mr. T went off the reservation and proclaimed himself the Savior of the Poor. Of course he wasn't, and anyway that title is reserved for someone else who is far richer, vastly more powerful, controls the military, and does NOT like competition.

 

The gradual swing towards China makes perfect sense when you consider that most of the wealth, and therefore the power, in this country is controlled by families with Chinese heritage.  China's ascent to it's current position as the world's number 2 economy has made this realignment all but inevitable.

 

Couple this with the fact that Thailand's ruling class has no real love for democracy as it threatens their grip on power, and of course China has never scolded them (or caused them to lose face) over the silly games they play by flirting with democracy and then crushing it when they don't like where it's heading.

 

The Thai ruling class has never appreciated Western democracies' passing judgement on their feudalistic approach to governance.  They've paid lip service to democracy, held their noses and done business with us when necessary, but no doubt couldn't wait for the day when they could put us in our place or be rid of us entirely.

 

Please understand that this attitude of contempt towards foreigners does not seem to be held by the vast majority of Thai people, who are by nature genuinely warm and welcoming in my experience.  Of course they are continually fed a negative message about everything non-thai as part of the mind control program used to keep outside influence to a minimum.

 

The ruling class doesn't give a rats ass about Western tourism.  It has virtually no impact on their income stream.  They are eager to get rid of their image as a destination for backpackers and whoremongers, who, of course, are the ones that put them on the map as a place worth visiting.  The wealthy Thai ruling class hates to see all the stories in Western media labelling Thailand as the whorehouse of the world (how dare they?) or as a place for criminals and degenerates to safely hide due to the endemic corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude (also true).

 

If you open your eyes to what is really behind this door being slowly shut on the Western world, connect the dots, you will see it is all part of the plan.  Strong baht, restrictive immigration, clampdown on Western entertainment venues: all designed to produce the desired results.  And guess what?  It's working.  The rich are getting richer, the poor are losing their teeraks, and all is well for those who aim to remain in power at all costs.

[rickudon]

On 7/15/2019 at 7:01 AM, marcusarelus said:

Average with a degree is 84,000  https://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/thailand

What a ridiculous post. A more realistic 'statistic' is this one Average annual HOUSEHOLD income in 2017 was $3,322 or slightly under 10,000 baht a month .....

 

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/thailand/annual-household-income-per-capita

 

As said, perfect storm for tourism. Tourist numbers have more than doubled in the last 10 years, but infrastructure has failed to keep up. Plenty of accommodation, yes - in fact too much. Tourists are met by overcrowded streets, traffic jams, pollution. The tourist demographic has changed, and not really for the better (depends on your point of view), and many Thais now a lot less tolerant of their antics. A high baht, and better SE Asian options growing.

Instead of dealing with the problems, we just get highly dubious TAT statistics on tourist spending (how can they possibly know what each nationality really spends?) and attempts to lure visitors from poorer, more naive countries who are easier to scam. Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg ......

 

Haven't even touched on the immigration changes as that impacts those here on long stays rather than real tourists. I must admit i never thought i would be thinking about returning to the UK, even though that would be really hard with a Thai wife and child, and no home there. Not going to happen yet, but the last 7 years have just seen every plus factor for Thailand slowly deteriorate.

[opalred]

a friend who has been traveling here for yrs 

arrived bkk airport \over 2hrs in line to get through immigration 

now they do fingerprints / said would be the last trip here

[khunpa]

Been coming here since 1989 and lived here full time for nearly 10 years now. Although I still like living in Thailand, I fully understand the drop in tourism. 

 

Personally, my family have dropped our local holiday trips and replaced them with trips abroad instead. Mainly due to a much better service level at other destinations and thereby also a better value for money feeling.

 

Thailand once had a "good feeling" about it, when visiting, due to the mentality and welcoming approach of the Thais. Before, your really felt this was "The Land of Smiles". As times have changed, so have the Thais working within the sector.

 

The tourism success seems to have been taken for granted for too long and the previous respect towards visitors have faded away. As a tourist in Thailand, you have lost the "feel good" feeling, which was the reason people came year after year. 

 

Unfortunately, this is no longer the case and competition has finally caught up. It will be a hard struggle to change this, especially with Thai-mentality (blame all others and do not learn from own mistakes)

 

 

 

[khunpa]

2 hours ago, rickudon said:

Haven't even touched on the immigration changes as that impacts those here on long stays rather than real tourists. I must admit i never thought i would be thinking about returning to the UK, even though that would be really hard with a Thai wife and child, and no home there. Not going to happen yet, but the last 7 years have just seen every plus factor for Thailand slowly deteriorate.

Agree and I think many are having the same thoughts. I am also considering moving to another nearby country, were I would feel more welcome.

[BritManToo]

Off topic,

Have you considered rural France?

Fixer upper properties available for 10k-20k Euros, often with a acre or two of land and no money needed for your wife's VISA if you're exercising your right to seek work. Much easier than the UK.

[superal]

3 hours ago, opalred said:

a friend who has been traveling here for yrs 

arrived bkk airport \over 2hrs in line to get through immigration 

now they do fingerprints / said would be the last trip here

I hope he is not looking forward to a beer , I can just imagine the rage 

[JAG]

5 hours ago, jing jing said:

If you open your eyes to what is really behind this door being slowly shut on the Western world, connect the dots, you will see it is all part of the plan.  Strong baht, restrictive immigration, clampdown on Western entertainment venues: all designed to produce the desired results.  And guess what?  It's working.  The rich are getting richer, the poor are losing their teeraks, and all is well for those who aim to remain in power at all costs.

And then, "the wheels came off"...

[CaptainJack]

6 hours ago, jing jing said:

Only if you approach the analysis with the bias of the disgruntled Western expat, which includes virtually all contributors to this topic.  Looking at the Big Picture may lead one to conclude that despite this blip in the tourism numbers, all is going as planned since the "adjustment" required after Mr. T went off the reservation and proclaimed himself the Savior of the Poor. Of course he wasn't, and anyway that title is reserved for someone else who is far richer, vastly more powerful, controls the military, and does NOT like competition.

 

The gradual swing towards China makes perfect sense when you consider that most of the wealth, and therefore the power, in this country is controlled by families with Chinese heritage.  China's ascent to it's current position as the world's number 2 economy has made this realignment all but inevitable.

 

Couple this with the fact that Thailand's ruling class has no real love for democracy as it threatens their grip on power, and of course China has never scolded them (or caused them to lose face) over the silly games they play by flirting with democracy and then crushing it when they don't like where it's heading.

 

The Thai ruling class has never appreciated Western democracies' passing judgement on their feudalistic approach to governance.  They've paid lip service to democracy, held their noses and done business with us when necessary, but no doubt couldn't wait for the day when they could put us in our place or be rid of us entirely.

 

Please understand that this attitude of contempt towards foreigners does not seem to be held by the vast majority of Thai people, who are by nature genuinely warm and welcoming in my experience.  Of course they are continually fed a negative message about everything non-thai as part of the mind control program used to keep outside influence to a minimum.

 

The ruling class doesn't give a rats ass about Western tourism.  It has virtually no impact on their income stream.  They are eager to get rid of their image as a destination for backpackers and whoremongers, who, of course, are the ones that put them on the map as a place worth visiting.  The wealthy Thai ruling class hates to see all the stories in Western media labelling Thailand as the whorehouse of the world (how dare they?) or as a place for criminals and degenerates to safely hide due to the endemic corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude (also true).

 

If you open your eyes to what is really behind this door being slowly shut on the Western world, connect the dots, you will see it is all part of the plan.  Strong baht, restrictive immigration, clampdown on Western entertainment venues: all designed to produce the desired results.  And guess what?  It's working.  The rich are getting richer, the poor are losing their teeraks, and all is well for those who aim to remain in power at all costs.

Thanks for the comment.  It makes sense to me.  

[baboon]

On 7/15/2019 at 7:12 PM, JAG said:

I say, that is a bit unfair Pedrogaz old chap. They are not only concerned with face, they are also concerned with extracting the absolute maximum amount of money from their tourists, whether it be by dual pricing, scamming (usually in collusion with various uniformed agencies}, and good old fashioned gouging. All of course without any thought to investing or maintaining the infrastructure, or managing the environmental impact of their activities.

 

You're right about the idiot bit though...

Your post reminds me of another one from years ago:

"Foreigners are seen as fair game and the whole country is in on it."

[baboon]

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

If there are still any 'whitey' expats who think that Thailand welcomes Western tourists, expats or retirees, or that the visa/financial 'noose' will not be tightened in the future to force them out, they are totally delusional!

 

Better for expats to leave now on your own terms, not theirs.  I'm out by the middle of next month.  For visiting tourists, there are many other countries in this region which are more welcoming.

 

I thought you had upped sticks quite a while ago, Simon?

 

But yes, your "Better for expats to leave now on your own terms, not theirs." is something I am hearing with increasing frequency. I know a few people who have done or are in the process of doing so.

[marcusarelus]

8 hours ago, rickudon said:

What a ridiculous post. A more realistic 'statistic' is this one Average annual HOUSEHOLD income in 2017 was $3,322 or slightly under 10,000 baht a month .....

 

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/thailand/annual-household-income-per-capita

 

Not really fair to compare household income survey with one that deals with college graduates only.  Check out the jobs available for engineering degrees with PTT or Dow and you can see why they earn quite a bit more than 10,000 baht.  Thailand's agriculture is only 9% of GDP.

[marcusarelus]

On 7/15/2019 at 5:48 PM, DrTuner said:

Nah, it's just important to me to spotlight people using stats to try to justify whatever point of view they are selling without giving the exact figures of the matter in question.

 

Given there are no reliable methods to calculate spenditure in societies which use cash I'd rather pull whatever figures I need out of my arse. Hence I'll say the average spending of a Chinese tourist is 25baht/day. As valid as any.

Sure there are reliable methods to calculate expenditures in societies which use cash.  Ask anyone who is involved in computing those figures and they will give you plus or minus accuracy numbers.

[chrisandsu]

On 7/15/2019 at 2:07 AM, marcusarelus said:

I think it's hiring people who have undergone the same rigorous standard of education as you have and not purchased degrees at phony colleges.  

So you are saying it’s not cronyism that put them in that position in the first place ? Do you actually know how Thailand works ? To even get into the top schools it takes huge bribes and those bribes continue into university . That takes money and family connections , barely anything is done off their own backs . For you to try and pretend that nepotism is is not the name of the game really makes me doubt your sanity .