Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[Maestro]

4 hours ago, newatthis said:

How does a retired person come under S 34?

 

Section 34

Aliens entering into the kingdom for a temporary stay may enter for the below listed activities:

1. Diplomatic or Consular Missions
2. Performance of official duties
3. Touring
4. Sporting
5. Business
6. Investing under the concurrence of the Ministries and Departments concerned.
7. Investing or other activities relating to investing subject to the provisions of the law on investment promotion.
8. Transit journey.
9. Being the person in charge of the crew of a conveyance coming to port, station, or area in the Kingdom.
10. Study or observation.
11. Mass media.
12. Missionary work under the concurrence of the Ministries and departments concerned.
13. Scientific research or training or teach in a Research Institute in the Kingdom.
14. The practice of skilled handicraft or as a specialist
15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

 

15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

[Bangkok Barry]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

 I've tried looking but have failed to find where it states that one must enter another country before returning,it only states that one must leave Thailand.

 

I don't think the IO would be able to either, but nothing has ever stopped them making up their own rules office to office, day to day, officer to officer. Asking to see the rule would be pointless and possibly counter-productive, because they'd lose face. Their only real grounds for insisting you enter another country is because it against the spirit of the law not to. But if the law is an ass then it deserves to be treated as one.

 

I live less than two hours drive from Mukdahan and we drive straight to the border, but your idea of using a quieter crossing is a good one if it's not too far. I'll consult my driver (spouse ???? ). Of course, not only does it save a passport page but 1500/1300 baht as well. Not for a while though, because in a month I'll be doing a 90 day exit by spending a couple of days in Singapore, and then it'll be time to get my annual multi-entry. If they still exist them.

[Patanawet]

Why does this petition only represent farang with spouses, with partners and or children? What about all the single farang affected by TM30?

[tjo o tjim]

While I applaud the effort, I think it is entirely the wrong approach to changing the situation. 

 

First, you need to start with the assumption that there is or will be shortly an app or website that will easily and accurately allow landlords, hotel operators, tenants, or ultimately individuals to report and be in full compliance. 

 

Second, you need to assume that the government has a legitimate need for this information for a subset of the people impacted.  Any non-compliance therefore impacts the ability to gather the “required” information from that target subset. 

 

Going in with these two understandings, what specific subsets of people can reasonably be excluded?  

 

Beyond these groups, what types of individuals would still be unduly burdened by the process?

 

From my perspective, it is really hard to come up with a class of people; once you fix the apps, and add a website, even the traveling salesman can comply. It is silly, but you aren’t going to eliminate the process if minor improvements are made. 

[Thingamabob]

17 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Nothing is perfect. People will disagree, would have used other words, including other reforms.

 

The website crashed twice today because there was too much traffic. The petition text in English has been revised to be more readable.

 

I am part of this group and we need 10,000 signatures to change things, Below that, they will not listen to us. I have lived in Thailand for 15 years, I work for a law firm. There is nothing illegal to tell how you feel about a law. Some people in our group have Thai families, work hard, pay taxes. We tried to add testimonials with pictures but people are quite scared.

 

I would like to appeal the Thaivisa community to SIGN THIS PETITION as if nothing is done, nothing will change. Some applications online do not work, it is currently a mess and not necessary. We are screen by immigration, give our address every 90 days, checked at airports and country entrances, etc. How many foreigners live in Thailand? How many spend a weekend in another province? Do you imagine the lost of time to manage this? 

 

This is not to protect terrorism. My personal opinion, it is useless and bureaucracy. In the old law of 1979 and need a change.

 

If you do not like it, do not sign, and I won't answer comments here. I take care of 4 children and manage a law firm. I have permanent residency and don't even have to do TM30, TM28 or TM47. I did that to help this community after receiving TONS of complaints. Thanks.

 

Sebastian.

No good will come of this, only more trouble. Naive and stupid beyond belief.

[mlmcleod]

What a waste of time.  It's 1984 in Thailand and they always want to know exactly where we are. If they scrap the TM-30 they will substitute the wearing of electronic bracelets!  In the view of the current Thailand administration foreigners are all thieves and lawbreakers.  If you do not believe that they will soon pass new laws that will leave the expat with a catch-22.  It will soon be the situation that you will have to break one law to comply with another.  That way you will always be subject to fines!

[Myran]

28 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

You've got it one-third correct.

 

Section 38 of the Immigration Act says that "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence" must report the arrival of a foreigner at the residence.

 

Please see section 4 for the definition of House Master.

 

For a rented private residence, it means

House Master = tenant

Owner = owner

Possessor = tenant 

No, I've got it completely right. What the law actually says doesn't matter (and I have made no reference to it); what matters is how the immigration officer interprets and enforces it.

 

You can claim all day long that you can be considered the house master, but if the immigration officer insists the house owner has to file the TM30, that's what has to be done. Plenty of people have been refused to file the TM30 because they aren't the owners of the house.

 

That's what I'm referring to, not what the actual law says.

[ChipButty]

Even Thai's I know think this is all B/S Like they did with B/J look what happened there

[holy cow cm]

1 hour ago, Mikisteel said:

The fact is the TM30 system is actually a good idea but it is not being implemented well enough for the expat community. If it was 100% online and accounted for all variations of people's accommodation variables then this would be a non starter. The direction of this petition and lack of cultural awareness is an embarrassment. 

It's a terrible idea and out of date. TM 6 is enough. And the petition is a good idea. Sometimes we as foreigners need to be heard as we are human beings and should not be belittled or treated like animals. We have actually helped Thailand in more ways than one to bring it to what it is today. Besides the bad points. 

[zydeco]

3 minutes ago, vinniekintana said:

We have nothing to lose but our chains....????

In the unlikely case that there will be a backlash against us...it can't get much worse than it already is.

If they so desire, they can pass a decree and attach your condo, your bank accounts, your automobile, your furniture, and put you on the next plane home. And you would have no effective recourse whatsoever.

[FarFlungFalang]

12 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I don't think the IO would be able to either, but nothing has ever stopped them making up their own rules office to office, day to day, officer to officer. Asking to see the rule would be pointless and possibly counter-productive, because they'd lose face. Their only real grounds for insisting you enter another country is because it against the spirit of the law not to. But if the law is an ass then it deserves to be treated as one.

 

I live less than two hours drive from Mukdahan and we drive straight to the border, but your idea of using a quieter crossing is a good one if it's not too far. I'll consult my driver (spouse ???? ). Of course, not only does it save a passport page but 1500/1300 baht as well. Not for a while though, because in a month I'll be doing a 90 day exit by spending a couple of days in Singapore, and then it'll be time to get my annual multi-entry. If they still exist them.

You are totally correct that's why I go by what the officer doing the process says,I did once try to say yeah but thinking she might be persuaded instead I was persuaded to go get my misses to get my passport back before jumping on the bus to cross the bridge.I kept going to Mukdahan as it is only an hour from here until I had to take the misses to Ubon so I tried Chong Mek which was great I didn't even have to cross the road as the exit and entry are in the same building and much quieter than Muk no buss loads of Thai gamblers and queues.

[TonyR101]

I'm clearly in a considerable expat minority here, as I will not be signing this petition. I believe this kind of reaction is exactly what the Thai Government want from the expat community.

I've lived in Chiang Mai, in my wife's house, continuously for the past 15 years, making occasional visit abroad and regular visits to other parts of Thailand. I has no idea that I needed a TM30 to stay at my home address until I visited Immigration to obtain a Re-entry permit a few weeks back.

 

Rather than winging about it, we have to ask ourselves - Why?

The Thai Government know as well as we do the outdated idiocy of Immigration rules and regulations. They know the effect it has on the foreign community, and they have a very good idea of what it is costing Thailand financially. Having a panel of self appointed ex-pats sitting at a round table with their 10,000 petition, facing a selection of Immigration and other Government officials, and explaining all these things will be seen as both patronising and objectionable, and it will be recorded as such. It will give a perfect excuse for the Government to push itself ever closer to total authoritarian control, and will help in its conflict with Thai political interests who would like to restore a greater degree of Democracy with the backing of Thailand's foreign community.

 

My advice to ex-pats is not to argue with the Government, but put your support behind those few who speak out in Thailand's parliament

[Fred white]

Breaking news royal Thai army rolls into issan with tanks ????

[Mel52]

Well you're on your usual bitching form today...[emoji849]

I read a lot of posts on this forum sometimes and it’s just funny too me it really is but I try not to reply or get lured into arguments. But sometimes I can’t help it because sometimes people say some extremely ridiculous stuff on here and then everyone else is cheering them on and feeding into it. Best to just ignore some of them.

[zydeco]

Nice knowing ya, Fred White.

[ChipButty]

10 minutes ago, zydeco said:

If they so desire, they can pass a decree and attach your condo, your bank accounts, your automobile, your furniture, and put you on the next plane home. And you would have no effective recourse whatsoever.

Thats what worries me after 20 years I don't feel safe 

[raccos21]

 

I think the Thai government is already giving a lot of hints for foreigners to leave their land. The best thing is to move to a new place or go back to where we came from. It is no point to argue or modify with their decision. Everyone knows the main idea behind these changes is that they just want your money not you.There are plenty of places around the globe where you can invest your hard earned money instead of this place.

[ChipButty]

8 minutes ago, Fred white said:

Breaking news royal Thai army rolls into issan with tanks ????

It wouldn't surprise me one bit

[dcnx]

11 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

Thats what worries me after 20 years I don't feel safe 

Because you’re not. We’re all one Somchai from being shown the door.

[holy cow cm]

44 minutes ago, tjo o tjim said:

Second, you need to assume that the government has a legitimate need for this information for a subset of the people impacted.

Sorry. No they do not and they have enough info already. It is already set up like a police state even without the TM30 and other style of check ins. Way overkill. It is never more than 5 minutes away having a police man nearby covering almost all of Thailand. There is no logic to their monitoring and harnessing us like wild animals..

[ChipButty]

4 minutes ago, dcnx said:

I’m leaving Thailand soon and have no desire to stay in Asia ever again. I’m over it. The Chinese tourists have soiled the region. 

Thai's have done a good job of it themselves 

[tjo o tjim]

1 minute ago, holy cow cm said:

Sorry. No they do not and they have enough info already. It is already set up like a police state even without the TM30 and other style of check ins. Way overkill. It is never more than 5 minutes away having a police man nearby covering almost all of Thailand. There is no logic to their monitoring and harnessing us like wild animals..

If you want to convince them otherwise you need to first assume that there is a reason. 

 

“Tourists” don’t report their location in any verifiable form. “Tourists have “abused” thai immigration policies in the past as well as the current time.  If “tourists” don’t report, then nobody else can be forced to.

 

The key to doing away with it is to focus the requests to exclude people that are clearly beyond the target demographic. The right way for them to do it would be to give (conditional) permanent residency to a much broader group than can get it. 

[Whip]

What an odd restriction

[Joe Mcseismic]

29 minutes ago, raccos21 said:

 

I think the Thai government is already giving a lot of hints for foreigners to leave their land. The best thing is to move to a new place or go back to where we came from. It is no point to argue or modify with their decision. Everyone knows the main idea behind these changes is that they just want your money not you.There are plenty of places around the globe where you can invest your hard earned money instead of this place.

.....and just exactly what are these "hints"?

Seems to me, they want foreigners with money, which is understandable, and to get rid of the cheap charlies. Also understandable.

[holy cow cm]

11 minutes ago, tjo o tjim said:

The key to doing away with it is to focus the requests to exclude people that are clearly beyond the target demographic. The right way for them to do it would be to give (conditional) permanent residency to a much broader group than can get it. 

I agree. But it is probably easier to fly to the moon.

[Jai Dee]

A couple of offensive troll posts and replies have been removed.

[jingjai9]

I think perhaps the authors should consider Thai culture. Through my years in Thailand I have come to learn we are guests here. Writing statements like,

"This is our solemn plea on behalf of every foreigner residing in or travelling around our beloved Thailand," does not help. It is not that Thais are mean or necessarily xenophobic; it is just that Thailand is not a country of refuge and Thais want to protect that. Using this type of rhetoric (including "our") may move Thai people, but not in the direction the authors intend.

 

I do appreciate the efforts of the ex-pat group and I believe their hearts are in the right place. I am not sure if theirs is the best approach.

[rexall]

22 hours ago, z42 said:

Good luck and all power to them. The requirements are cumbersome at best and completely unnecessary at worst.

I spoke to my provincial office on behalf of a number of foreign workers in mg province, and in all fairness the officers weren't thrilled with the arrangement but were duty bound to enforce and show results.

 

Again it'll be Thais complaining about excessive enforcement that'll have it reined in. But i can't envisage that happening for a while yet.

 

So the shit show will continue unabated

Nope! The requirements are cumbersome and completely unnecessary at best.  At worst they are draconian, immoral, completely inappropriate for a country that aspires to take it's place as a modern society existing in a modern community of nations. 

[rexall]

21 hours ago, ChipButty said:

I know a few Thai's who dont like it

Of course they don't like it!  Why the hell would they like it? But probably won't take it seriously until it comes and bites them in the ass.  At that point, if reporting is too much of a hassle, they may choose to stop renting to falang.

[rexall]

21 hours ago, wisperone said:

If you don't like it, leave.

If you don't like hearing people say they don't like it, why don't YOU leave???