Meeting with immigration about TM30 and the latest news about the petition

[Srikcir]

20 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

there is a large proportion of workers from Cambodia, Laos and Burma. Something like 3 million in the country. And often, they do not respect the rules and regulations. That is a major problem for immigration. Rules are enforced for them but as there is only one law, it affects foreigners from western countries.

There is a broader issue with these workers that has nothing to do with Thailand residence for foreigners who legally enter Thailand for the purpose of an extended stay. These countries have stateless people who cannot meet any of Thailand's rules & regulations to be in Thailand while also they have no human rights in the country of their residence. Their entry into Thailand must either be false or unauthorized entry. But because of the "one law approach" the government unnecessarily lumps all foreigners entering on other than tourist visas into one compliance process such as the TM28 and TM 30.

[ChipButty]

1 minute ago, Srikcir said:

There is a broader issue with these workers that has nothing to do with Thailand residence for foreigners who legally enter Thailand for the purpose of an extended stay. These countries have stateless people who cannot meet any of Thailand's rules & regulations to be in Thailand while also they have no human rights in the country of their residence. Their entry into Thailand must either be false or unauthorized entry. But because of the "one law approach" the government unnecessarily lumps all foreigners entering on other than tourist visas into one compliance process such as the TM28 and TM 30.

The pendulum always swings to far

[theoldgit]

Is "rocking the boat"  any more successful in other countries ?   Well, I guess western style prisons are more user friendly.

I don’t know about “rocking the boat” but when the UK is considering a change in Immigration Law, they consult groups representing those affected, NGO’s as well as carrying out a public consultation.
The result may well be the same as they were originally considering, but at least they make some effort.

[Sunderland]

Thank you for your effort to get more information out of immigration. 

 

My wife would love to ask the immigration officials why she has been waiting more than 5 weeks for a password to do the TM30 reporting online. Yes, she could and will ultimately have to go to immigration, but imagine doing that with a screaming 2-month old baby and a 2-year old toddler. I kind of wish she would do that just to create a headache for the immigration officers.

Also, how many landlords have been visited and money collected from them? I expect the answer is close to zero. It is highly convenient for immigration officers to extract money - like thieves - from foreigners who are unable to process extensions without a TM30 receipt. 

Anyway, thank you again for your effort to communicate with immigration. 

  

[owenm]

Great efforts to you to try and make change to the various immigration acts, and interpretation and implementation of those acts.. 

 

Most, if not all other countries, whether they be western or not, have their Immigration Acts at federal level and not state or provincial.. 

 

Thailand's Immigration Acts should also be regulated at federal level, and not have different interpretation by the various provinces.. One rule of law on immigration matters should be a constant, without any uncertainty as to what isn't required in one Immigration Office, but is required at another.. 

[malt25]

19 hours ago, Xaos said:

The dumbest part of it for me as a person with an year extension is that u have to report 24h in advance to immigration if u going to other province. Like I want travel for leisure Samui Krabi Phuket or whatever and have to report this. If Im correct. 

What on earth are you on about ?

[Jaxxper]

19 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

I look forward to the Immigration Department taking steps to lower the value of the baht

I think you’ll find it’s Treasury that controls the Baht, not immigration.

[Peter60]

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this.   Things will change if people of courage are willing to make the effort.   Life could be made much easier for long term expats like ourselves. The ability to use an online system and just have an annual office visit is the obvious answer.  Terrorists and criminals are hardly likely to fill in TM 30 to explain their location.

One question that occurred to me is how hotels and landlords complete their paperwork. I have never seen a hotel worker at immigration office, what system do they use to record and notify the authorities.

 

 

[rumak]

24 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

I don’t know about “rocking the boat” but when the UK is considering a change in Immigration Law, they consult groups representing those affected, NGO’s as well as carrying out a public consultation.
The result may well be the same as they were originally considering, but at least they make some effort.
 

please don't get in a fight with me  ????    but the cynical position I take is that all that "public consultation" is just a ruse to fool the hoi polloi (fancy term for the masses)

I am sure many disagree with me.   That is democracy

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, crazykopite said:

Anybody tell me what happens if you have a yellow house book that has your name on it as the tenant is there still a requirement to fill in a TM30 if you go away for a few days or weeks whether it be to Bangkok or one of the neighbouring countries.

Yellow book or no yellow book, there are no exemption for TM30s, only the levels of enforcement by your local office.

Every foreigner is subject to a TM30 being done for every stay at every property. Its only the local enforcement that varies.

[Millcx]

19 hours ago, d2b2 said:

Your efforts are appreciated ????

Well done sir .. You should be commended “;0)

[PerkinsCuthbert]

Good effort, for which many thanks. However, the day that any Thai government website functions consistently, intuitively and correctly, especially in its English language version, is the day I take a vat of Mrs Perkins' patent, industrial strength pla ra to Chiang Wattana, for the delectation of immigration officers and their families. 

[bkk6060]

20 hours ago, Mavideol said:

maybe could pinch in about their request to have 800K blocked at the bank, many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

Makes no sense. 

You expect them to hire appraisers and make reports for every foreign owned condo?

Believe it or not, not every property is worth 800k.  

[Miami007]

8 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Section 38 of the Immigration Act says that "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence" has to make the TM.30 notification. Which of these three did the immigration officials mean when they said "landlords"? This is the question.

Isn't the "possessor" of the residence the renter/ tenant?

Logically,  how would a landlord (local Thai or foreigner) know whether a tenant leaves or returns?

 

Big part of the problem seems the translation of the law from Thai into English. Lawyers can take hours discussing the correct interpretation of a law in it's original language - a translation probably is even more ambiguous.

 

And not every IO is fluent in English either - which may add to confusion

[RPCVguy]

18 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Recently, I was told that foreign teachers traveling to other provinces on weekends had to report to immigration Monday morning, so even Thai students were penalized by the strict enforcement of sections 37 and 38 of the immigration act. Like the Bangkok Post mentioned this week, Thailand is shooting itself in the foot, and expats are furious about these rules that some found draconian.

 

Jackdd perhaps clarified this as regards teachers with work-permits

It does put a burden on those whom the schools rely upon to rent accommodations to these teachers. Are they suppose to do a room check each night, like a warden? ... then, according to the wording in the law, quickly file a TM30 for each expat teacher on the day he or she returns?

When I was filing my annual extension at our IO (located 2hrs drive away) I met there the property owner for the building used for the Japanese and the English language teachers at the Amphur's secondary school. Though the request for the online option had been filed, no password had been then or since delivered.
Strict adherence to this law is not possible, and turning away the ex-pat teachers from renting would deprive our community of the language skills needed for Thai to compete in the ASEAN community. I do recall the difficulties of speaking English with even the That who were teaching English here. That was 12 years ago. The hiring of these young expat teachers (here for adventure and weekend tourism) is making a difference - helping their fellow teachers improve their conversational skills. But, back to the topic, this requires keeping the property owners out of too much extra paperwork.

[Greenside]

17 hours ago, Genericnic said:

Thanks to the OP for the effort. From my perspective, I am afraid with will be for nought. My issue isn't the legal requirements but a lack of consistency.

 

As a retired lawyer, I am used to dealing with paperwork, even totally useless paperwork. Give me a clear set of instructions on what to do and it will get done. What I find frustrating about the TM30 requirements - as well as many of the other IB requirements - is lack of consistency. In my home country, it doesn't matter which office of an agency I go to. The rules and regulations are generally enforced in a consistent manner. In Thailand that is not the case. Each IB office - and in most cases each Immigration officer - is allowed to make up interpretations on their own. The problem is not the rule but the lack of consistency.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

 

David

 

This is absolutely the root of the problem and not only in the field of immigration.  It's of no value the authorities saying that this or that element of the regulations won't be enforced when each province, office and immigration officer has the freedom to decide what suits them at any particular time.

 

No matter if the purpose of a law is worthy, poor drafting, hasty implementation and a lack of training and management render even the best intentions annoying and counter productive, often way out of proportion to the actual issue they were intended to address.  We all know, for example, that the house owner or landlord is responsible for paying a fine if they fail to file a TM30, but there are numerous reports of expats having to come up with the money at the risk of an extension refusal or some other penalty.  The stress and apprehension this kind of uncertainty causes countless foreigners is possibly the biggest threat to Thailand's aim to attract quality long term visitors and expats.

 

To the OP: Many thanks for all the work you are putting into this.  Please stress the points David and I have made, as simply changing rules without ensuring consistent enforcement will never solve the underlying problems with the immigration system. 

[sathornlover]

Excellent report, which I will gladly forward to all interested people from my circle of acquaintances and thank you very much for your effort ????

[ChipButty]

27 minutes ago, Peter60 said:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this.   Things will change if people of courage are willing to make the effort.   Life could be made much easier for long term expats like ourselves. The ability to use an online system and just have an annual office visit is the obvious answer.  Terrorists and criminals are hardly likely to fill in TM 30 to explain their location.

One question that occurred to me is how hotels and landlords complete their paperwork. I have never seen a hotel worker at immigration office, what system do they use to record and notify the authorities.

 

 

One guy I know uses excel spreadsheet send them all at once online

[dn012]

Thank you for this,you have spent a great deal of time and effort and have had some concrete effect where most have not!

[Peter Denis]

19 hours ago, keith101 said:

I am going to Pattaya next month and asked my local office if I had to report to immigration there and was told no as the hotel has to do that .

As I understand it, the law says that every time you move to a different location it has to be reported to the local provincial Immigration Office.

Which means that when 'coming back home' after a trip has to be reported too. And the person reporting should be the owner of the location you are staying (which can be a Hotel, a friend where you are staying, yourself if you are the owner). 

Obviously this is a very unpractical law for all concerned, hence the considerable leeway in its enforcement by the IOs.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Peter Denis
incomplete info

[Salerno]

20 hours ago, Xaos said:

If Im correct. 

You're not.

[tracy3eyes]

Would someone be so kind as to inform me on the below

 

I need to visit Bangkok 31 Aug to 4 Sept (staying in Novotel) and then catch a flight to the UK on the morning of the 4th Sept. What do I need to do TM30 because its all very confusing and in some cases contradictory?

[Colabamumbai]

Thank you so much. With love and light, from the Kingdom. 

[rwill]

1 minute ago, tracy3eyes said:

Would someone be so kind as to inform me on the below

 

I need to visit Bangkok 31 Aug to 4 Sept (staying in Novotel) and then catch a flight to the UK on the morning of the 4th Sept. What do I need to do TM30 because its all very confusing and in some cases contradictory?

You don't need to do anything until you arrive back in Thailand.

[Tomahawk21]

19 hours ago, CRUNCHER said:

Thank you for your effort.

 

As a landlord I do a TM 30 when a tenant moves in.  After that the tenant is under no obligation to keep me informed as to his movements. How do I know if he leaves Thailand and returns?

 

Even if he does what happens in I am not in Thailand myself? I might well be traveling with limited internet access. How can a landlord reasonably be responsible after the tenant moves in?

hope you have a work permit or dont you need one as a landlord?

[ChipButty]

7 minutes ago, tracy3eyes said:

Would someone be so kind as to inform me on the below

 

I need to visit Bangkok 31 Aug to 4 Sept (staying in Novotel) and then catch a flight to the UK on the morning of the 4th Sept. What do I need to do TM30 because its all very confusing and in some cases contradictory?

The hotel will do it for you

[BigC]

21 hours ago, Mavideol said:

maybe could pinch in about their request to have 800K blocked at the bank, many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

I reckon  a fixed savings account of 400 k would be sufficient and with ability  to withdraw interesr.

 

Also assets value 400 k shoukd also be considered.

 

You can use assets to get a loan so should be able to show assets to get a visa.

[bastco]

Hi Sebastian,

I really appreciate your efforts. Would you be able to request uniformity of Immigration Law throughout Thailand Immigration Provincial Offices be strictly enforced and adhered to under threat of penalty to the offending office and a Call Centre number provided specifically to report any office not complying. Maybe worded/composed by an expat lawyer who is already respected by Thai Immigration heirarchy and maybe an expat media station who could request an explanation publicly from Thai Immigration Head Office. I find it hard to believe that the top brass in TI are aware of the "Own rules system" applied by individual Provincial offices

I believe this problem has only got progressively worse and needs to be addressed asap. 

[Torrens54]

Great effort and thank you for your time and hard work on these issues.

You are greatly appreciated!

????????

[Boatfreak]

Thank you for your efforts. ????