Is the closure of your favorite bar or restaurant imminent?

[Leaver]

14 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Are you suggesting he's paying 200 baht per beer.....seriously?

 

 

Are you suggesting, in totality, he really is drinking at wholesale price.....seriously?

[kingofthemountain]

21 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Why do you doubt it?  

 

In his mind, buying the bar was worth it, because he could drink at wholesale price, but he obviously didn't add on purchase price of the bar, and all the other expenses, to the wholesale price of each beer?  

To not include all the costs of a service\product is a classic

 

Almost 100 % of the mongers think a working girl in Thailand is cheap when they pay 1000 thb for it

they forget to add the price of the ticket plane, the hotel and all the others expenses they 

wouldn't have if they were ''at home''

If they ''do the math'' they should be surprised, most of the time they could have cheaper in their vicinity.

Edited January 9, 2021 by kingofthemountain

[HashBrownHarry]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

 

Are you suggesting, in totality, he really is drinking at wholesale price.....seriously?

You've not answered my question ( again ) about you think he's paying 200 baht, yes or no?

 

No i would n't expect him to be paying wholesale.

[kingofthemountain]

4 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

You've not answered my question ( again ) about you think he's paying 200 baht, yes or no?

 

No i would n't expect him to be paying wholesale.

Of course he wasn't paying 200 thb his drink at the moment he was drinking it

however if you include all the money he spend on the bar since the begining

the cost of his drink was probably more than the average price in any other bar

 

But to be able to bragg to his friends that he owns a bar and he drinks without paying

is probably a priceless experience, at least in his point of view

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by kingofthemountain

[Leaver]

18 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

You've not answered my question ( again ) about you think he's paying 200 baht, yes or no?

 

No i would n't expect him to be paying wholesale.

 

Depends how long his lease was, but he sure wasn't dinking 30 baht beers in his own bar.  

[Wongkitlo]

On 1/8/2021 at 11:01 PM, Ron jeremy said:

I am quite certain that is not a single business owner that will honestly say they made the right decision investing in Thailand 

sad but true

Maybe you should say  Pattaya not Thailand. Until Covid my wife and I lived quite easily for 2 years from her guesthouse on one of the islands including overseas trips each year. 

[chrisandsu]

1 minute ago, Wongkitlo said:

Maybe you should say  Pattaya not Thailand. Until Covid my wife and I lived quite easily for 2 years from her guesthouse on one of the islands including overseas trips each year. 

I think he means bars . There is no profit in bars or at least significant enough to make a living . I know a few foreigners who have done quite well from businesses in Thailand and started with very little . Granted they are few and far between though . You have to sell on while it’s doing well or it will be copied and undercut as soon as others see it being a success which is a shame . 

[Wongkitlo]

1 minute ago, chrisandsu said:

I think he means bars . There is no profit in bars or at least significant enough to make a living . I know a few foreigners who have done quite well from businesses in Thailand and started with very little . Granted they are few and far between though . You have to sell on while it’s doing well or it will be copied and undercut as soon as others see it being a success which is a shame . 

It does depend on where you are. I found that each year I had new ideas for  things to sell and even though business was down last year before covid profits were up because we thought of new things to sell and became better at selling.  I was pretty sure I could have close to doubled my profits this year with new products and doing things a bit different from my competition  but Covid came. Fortunately we have a friendly landlord. I found alcohol is the hardest things to profit from because of the intlitial cost to purchase and it is bulky. Even filling the fridge each day is a pain. Profit is high on food as the initial cost is low, bike hire, ticket sales are good. I could make 60000 b per year from a motorbike that cost me 15000b. If you are just going to buy a bar and put your wife there as mamasan and let the girls sit looking at their phones and play loud doof music to a clientele who are in their 50's + I guess you are destined to fail. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If you are proactive and give people a different experience you would have a greater chance of success which applies to any business wherever you are, Pattaya included.

[chrisandsu]

12 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

It does depend on where you are. I found that each year I had new ideas for  things to sell and even though business was down last year before covid profits were up because we thought of new things to sell and became better at selling.  I was pretty sure I could have close to doubled my profits this year with new products and doing things a bit different from my competition  but Covid came. Fortunately we have a friendly landlord. I found alcohol is the hardest things to profit from because of the intlitial cost to purchase and it is bulky. Even filling the fridge each day is a pain. Profit is high on food as the initial cost is low, bike hire, ticket sales are good. I could make 60000 b per year from a motorbike that cost me 15000b. If you are just going to buy a bar and put your wife there as mamasan and let the girls sit looking at their phones and play loud doof music to a clientele who are in their 50's + I guess you are destined to fail. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If you are proactive and give people a different experience you would have a greater chance of success which applies to any business wherever you are, Pattaya included.

I agree with all that . The problem I have always seen with businesses here is the laziness . This is why the Chinese-Thais do so well as their work ethic is way better then the Thais . So hiring decent staff is hugely difficult . Which is a reason why I wouldn’t invest here unless I could do most of the work myself .  I wish you the best of luck with your business mate . It’s going to be a rough year for all of us 

[Wongkitlo]

25 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

I agree with all that . The problem I have always seen with businesses here is the laziness . This is why the Chinese-Thais do so well as their work ethic is way better then the Thais . So hiring decent staff is hugely difficult . Which is a reason why I wouldn’t invest here unless I could do most of the work myself .  I wish you the best of luck with your business mate . It’s going to be a rough year for all of us 

Yes so true. We did most of the work ourselves. Staff would turn up when they felt like it  then come and then go and come back and then go. I don't think it was our treatment of them.  Fortunately we have a friendly landlord so this year is a holiday. Thanks.

[treetops]

19 hours ago, Leaver said:

Why do you doubt it?  

 

In his mind, buying the bar was worth it, because he could drink at wholesale price, but he obviously didn't add on purchase price of the bar, and all the other expenses, to the wholesale price of each beer?  

 

Your arithmetic regarding costs of running a bar was shown to be laughable in another recent thread.  Why do you think you'll have any credibility here?

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, treetops said:

 

Your arithmetic regarding costs of running a bar was shown to be laughable in another recent thread.  Why do you think you'll have any credibility here?

 

Errr, it was YOU that come up with a figure that you put forward as good money, and included ZERO expenses to be taken out of that figure, not even the cost of the product that the business sells, which was beer.  That was laughable.

 

Here's a tip for you:

 

If a business brings in 100,000 baht cash a month, but their expenses are 110,000 baht a month, they have lost 10,000 baht.  

 

Yes, difficult arithmetic, I know.  

 

And you question my credibility.  ????

[Rimmer]

A couple of baiting/bickering posts have been removed

[Leaver]

On 1/10/2021 at 11:52 AM, Wongkitlo said:

Maybe you should say  Pattaya not Thailand. Until Covid my wife and I lived quite easily for 2 years from her guesthouse on one of the islands including overseas trips each year. 

 

Do you take into account the initial purchase price and key money?  This must be recouped, within the term of the current lease, before and success can be claimed.  

[Wongkitlo]

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Do you take into account the initial purchase price and key money?  This must be recouped, within the term of the current lease, before and success can be claimed.  

Not really. They would come out of a resale price if you sell the business.  Sure if you have a run down, badly managed business you may have trouble selling but if you put in the effort and obviously have a successful business it is saleable. Regardless most businesses are long term propositions so ideally the initial costs are covered by the profits several times. I was replying to Ron Jeremy's statement.

[kingofthemountain]

14 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

They would come out of a resale price if you sell the business

Nope

they would come out of your yearly benefit

the initial pruchase and key money are money already paid

 

it you sell your business, the selling price come to add to your pasts benefits

 

untill then it's just a wish, nobody know when it will happen nor even if it happens

particularly at the moment

[Leaver]

22 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

Not really. They would come out of a resale price if you sell the business.  Sure if you have a run down, badly managed business you may have trouble selling but if you put in the effort and obviously have a successful business it is saleable. Regardless most businesses are long term propositions so ideally the initial costs are covered by the profits several times. I was replying to Ron Jeremy's statement.

 

Sure, but there wasn't many business selling, pre covid. 

 

In any case, speculating on Thailand's tourism industry, particularly for western tourists, 5 years, 8 years, or 10 years into the future is quite risky, no matter how well you run a business here.    

[Leaver]

4 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

Nope

they would come out of your yearly benefit

the initial pruchase and key money are money already paid

 

it you sell your business, the selling price come to add to your pasts benefits

 

untill then it's just a wish, nobody know when it will happen nor even if it happens

particularly at the moment

 

Correct.

 

You may have something to sell, but it's only worth what someone is will to pay for it.  If no one wants to buy it, you have zero, until someone makes an offer, and that could be anything, even a crazy low offer. 

 

With no buyers, and as the lease expiry date nears, what decision have you got, buy again, or walk away.  Neither are good options.   

[Wongkitlo]

19 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Sure, but there wasn't many business selling, pre covid. 

 

In any case, speculating on Thailand's tourism industry, particularly for western tourists, 5 years, 8 years, or 10 years into the future is quite risky, no matter how well you run a business here.    

Ron  was talking about pre covid. Is hard to include the present because is a whole new situation. Business everywhere are suffering. You are basing your premise on businessess being mismanaged. As I posted if you put your girlfriend as mamasan and play doof music loud while the girls look at their phones or have dirty overpriced rooms with staff who don't care it is hard to think it would be easy to sell. In my case even though business was down last year I became better at it and kept having new ideas so made more money. I keep thinking back to Cheap Charlie's in Soi Bukhao. It has nice food, is cheap, has friendly staff,  a catchy name, and as a result I am sure It would have resale value.  The other thought is there are millions of dumb people with money in the world. You just need to find one of them.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Wongkitlo
Edit

[Wongkitlo]

14 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Correct.

 

You may have something to sell, but it's only worth what someone is will to pay for it.  If no one wants to buy it, you have zero, until someone makes an offer, and that could be anything, even a crazy low offer. 

 

With no buyers, and as the lease expiry date nears, what decision have you got, buy again, or walk away.  Neither are good options.   

Yes but isn't that the same everywhere in the world? Thailand is no exception.

[Wongkitlo]

19 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

Nope

they would come out of your yearly benefit

the initial pruchase and key money are money already paid

 

it you sell your business, the selling price come to add to your pasts benefits

 

untill then it's just a wish, nobody know when it will happen nor even if it happens

particularly at the moment

Yes but I don't think Ron Jeremy was talking about Covid. He said any business in Thailand.

[scubascuba3]

19 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

I keep thinking back to Cheap Charlie's in Soi Bukhao. It has nice food, is cheap, has friendly staff,  a catchy name, and as a result I am sure It would have resale value.  The other thought is there are millions of dumb people with money in the world. You just need to find one of them.

They need to bin the members card, rather than join and get the discounted prices you can just east at Hungry Hippo and others instead 

[Wongkitlo]

7 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

They need to bin the members card, rather than join and get the discounted prices you can just east at Hungry Hippo and others instead 

I have been to both but not often. I thought Cheap Charlie's was cheaper and better managed. The staff seemed friendlier. I still think if someone was looking for a business in Pattaya it would be something a possible buyer would consider(maybe not now during covid)

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, Wongkitlo said:

I keep thinking back to Cheap Charlie's in Soi Bukhao. It has nice food, is cheap, has friendly staff,  a catchy name, and as a result I am sure It would have resale value.  The other thought is there are millions of dumb people with money in the world. You just need to find one of them.

Wasn't the Hungry Hippo supposed to be up for sale? Never noticed any change and it has similar qualifications.

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

You are basing your premise on businessess being mismanaged.

 

Wrong.

 

I am basing my premise on things changing that are out of the control of business owners here.  Eg.  strong baht, visa laws etc etc.  

 

You can run a great operation here, but if Thailand is being mismanaged, you, and your business, are along for the ride.

 

8 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

I keep thinking back to Cheap Charlie's in Soi Bukhao. It has nice food, is cheap, has friendly staff,  a catchy name, and as a result I am sure It would have resale value. 

 

That establishment was a construction project, not building a business.  Sure, the lines cross over, but the owner has a history of the "pump and dump."  

 

8 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

The other thought is there are millions of dumb people with money in the world. You just need to find one of them.

 

Those good old days will not be back for quite some time.  "Dreamers" will be in short supply here, well past many current lease expiry dates. 

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

Yes but isn't that the same everywhere in the world? Thailand is no exception.

 

True, but this is a Thailand forum, and specifically Pattaya, and given the foreign ownership of land laws here, that means foreigners, who are heavily invested in hospitality here, have nothing to sell but some good will, and a lease, which is, essentially, nothing here.  

[treetops]

16 minutes ago, Leaver said:

That establishment was a construction project, not building a business.  Sure, the lines cross over, but the owner has a history of the "pump and dump." 

 

What business(es) has he/she pumped and dumped?

[Leaver]

16 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

What business(es) has he/she pumped and dumped?

 

I stand corrected.  I was thinking of Hungry Hippo.  My apologies.  

[Wongkitlo]

33 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

True, but this is a Thailand forum, and specifically Pattaya, and given the foreign ownership of land laws here, that means foreigners, who are heavily invested in hospitality here, have nothing to sell but some good will, and a lease, which is, essentially, nothing here.  

I was basing my comment on Ron Jeremy saying 

 am quite certain that is not a single business owner that will honestly say they made the right decision investing in Thailand 

I think that is not true. My business was not in Pattaya but I did investigate Pattaya. I remember walking up and down Soi Bukhao years ago wanting to have a quiet drink. I did not want to listen to dance music, I did not want to buy a girl a lady drink, I did not want to talk to anyone but I found it hard to find.  My thought was how can any of these places survive if this is their business model. I go for a drink at the bottleshop at the bottom of  soi 6 for this reason. It is the only place on the beach I know where I won't get annoyed to buy people drinks. I think it is understandable that the enormous number of bars in Pattaya following this business model don't make money but saying it applies to all Thailand is wrong. I bought into my business cheap and have probably made my money back several times over. It is a 6 month per year proposition and the money I have made has supported me for 2 years. I could walk out tomorrow and not be regretful.

[Leaver]

6 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

I was basing my comment on Ron Jeremy saying 

 am quite certain that is not a single business owner that will honestly say they made the right decision investing in Thailand 

I think that is not true. My business was not in Pattaya but I did investigate Pattaya. I remember walking up and down Soi Bukhao years ago wanting to have a quiet drink. I did not want to listen to dance music, I did not want to buy a girl a lady drink, I did not want to talk to anyone but I found it hard to find.  My thought was how can any of these places survive if this is their business model. I go for a drink at the bottleshop at the bottom of  soi 6 for this reason. It is the only place on the beach I know where I won't get annoyed to buy people drinks. I think it is understandable that the enormous number of bars in Pattaya following this business model don't make money but saying it applies to all Thailand is wrong. I bought into my business cheap and have probably made my money back several times over. It is a 6 month per year proposition and the money I have made has supported me for 2 years. I could walk out tomorrow and not be regretful.

 

Good post.

 

I agree, not all foreigners that have "invested" and I use the term "invested" losely, have lost money, or regretted their decision.  However, a high percentage have.  

 

I agree with your description of the situation in Soi Baukhao, but I would suggest it's across Pattaya in general.  There's no money in selling beer anymore.  They have to sell lady drinks and bar fines, and due to the use of apps, that's a dying business model.  

 

So, in the near future, how do Soi Baukhao business owners explain to their Thai landlords that sex can no longer be sold out of bars, and that apps have digitally disrupted the traditional Pattaya bar business model, much the same as AirBnb and Uber, did for those respective industries.  Would a Thai landlord even care, or even understand this fact?  

 

Business owners could simply raise the price of alcohol, because sex is no longer a product they can put a margin on in their bar, but tourists would then just go to Vietnam, for example, for cheaper sun, sea, sand and seafood.

 

Thailand has placed itself in an interesting place in the South East Asia tourism market, and this was happening pre covid.